Topping PA5 Review (Amplifier)

[TheBatsEar]

Shame they have these reliability problems. 25 y.old Yamaha Amp. No issues at all.

Survivorship bias?

Survivorship bias - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

But yes, they have to up their reliability if they want to win the old school/higher end of customers too.

 

[peng]

There are always going to be some that will develop problems, a few cases here and there reported on forums could be the norm. I suspect when there are relatively concentrated issues of similar types, the causes, whatever they are, likely are from specific production batches. Same thing for cars, even those known to be the most reliable brands have lemons, usually specific to some model years.

 

[Sokel]

There are always going to be some that will develop problems, a few cases here and there reported on forums could be the norm. I suspect when there are relatively concentrated issues of similar types, the causes, whatever they are, likely are from specific production batches. Same thing for cars, even those known to be the most reliable brands have lemons, usually specific to some model years.

In this case it seems it's not batch batch,but component related and not specific to one model.
It's these strange modules that fail repeatedly.

 

[peng]

In this case it seems it's not batch batch,but component related and not specific to one model.
It's these strange modules that fail repeatedly.

Fair enough, in that case it could still be "batch" related though, batch in terms of manufacturing date range.. For example, may be Topping bought a bunch of "bad" caps, solder, or during the time period certain production tooling minor issues not known etc.. I didn't follow this super long thread, has Topping ever commented on the reported issues, and/or offered extended warranty?

I have only owned one Topping product so far, but also know someone who has several for at least 3-5 years and have 0 issues, so far. Obviously in this case based on ASR members feedback the PA-5 seemed problematic, just not sure if the sample size is large enough for it to be considered something like the so called lemon, term used in cars.

 

[Roland68]

Fair enough, in that case it could still be "batch" related though, batch in terms of manufacturing date range.. For example, may be Topping bought a bunch of "bad" caps, solder, or during the time period certain production tooling minor issues not known etc.. I didn't follow this super long thread, has Topping ever commented on the reported issues, and/or offered extended warranty?

I have only owned one Topping product so far, but also know someone who has several for at least 3-5 years and have 0 issues, so far. Obviously in this case based on ASR members feedback the PA-5 seemed problematic, just not sure if the sample size is large enough for it to be considered something like the so called lemon, term used in cars.

This has nothing to do with the feedback from ASR members, PA5 and LA90 devices are failing for all customers.
The problem is the stupid casting of the small signal boards.
Since there is no technically sensible reason to pot these modules, this was probably done solely to keep the circuit secret.

Funnily enough, that's exactly what caused the circuit to become public

When it came to potting the modules, they apparently made every possible mistake that could be made. I therefore assume that the necessary knowledge for this was not available, but no external knowledge was obtained either.
Since several modules worked again after removing the casting compound, only by cleaning and re-soldering, without replacing any components, it is also clear that it was not a heat problem.

So it has absolutely nothing to do with their other quality, which I actually think is good, but only with some untested and untested nonsense that they build into their top products.
And that's exactly what you can accuse them of.
Topping has built something into their devices that does not improve the devices and has no meaning or benefit for the customer.
It doesn't take much effort to test just a few of these modules under load in a small oven at 70-90° for several weeks or months.

 

[NTK]

The irony of all these is that potting (encapsulation) or conformal coating of PCB is often done to enhance product reliability

https://dm.henkel-dam.com/is/content/henkel/lt-6917-brochure-printed-circuit-board-protection-1

[Edit]

IPC-HDBK-850 - Handbook Guidelines for Design, Selection and Application of Potting Materials and Encapsulation Processes Used for Electronics Printed Circuit Board Assembly

shop.ipc.org

 

[daniboun]

This has nothing to do with the feedback from ASR members, PA5 and LA90 devices are failing for all customers.
The problem is the stupid casting of the small signal boards.
Since there is no technically sensible reason to pot these modules, this was probably done solely to keep the circuit secret.

Funnily enough, that's exactly what caused the circuit to become public

When it came to potting the modules, they apparently made every possible mistake that could be made. I therefore assume that the necessary knowledge for this was not available, but no external knowledge was obtained either.
Since several modules worked again after removing the casting compound, only by cleaning and re-soldering, without replacing any components, it is also clear that it was not a heat problem.

So it has absolutely nothing to do with their other quality, which I actually think is good, but only with some untested and untested nonsense that they build into their top products.
And that's exactly what you can accuse them of.
Topping has built something into their devices that does not improve the devices and has no meaning or benefit for the customer.
It doesn't take much effort to test just a few of these modules under load in a small oven at 70-90° for several weeks or months.

That what I explained in another thread :
The obsession with protection leads to crazy decisions.... Topping implemented a pseudo anti-reverse engineering strategy without going through quality control. By wanting to skip the steps we end up endangering our image.
And in the end we discover under the "secret box" a pair of Opa1612....

 

[Roland68]

The irony of all these is that potting (encapsulation) or conformal coating of PCB is often done to enhance product reliability

https://dm.henkel-dam.com/is/content/henkel/lt-6917-brochure-printed-circuit-board-protection-1

[Edit]

IPC-HDBK-850 - Handbook Guidelines for Design, Selection and Application of Potting Materials and Encapsulation Processes Used for Electronics Printed Circuit Board Assembly

shop.ipc.org

Yes, but people/companies with experience did that.
And there is already over 40 years of experience with it. Even in the 80s and 90s we potted highly sensitive HF technology in the hobby area, which then worked for several years. And that with the influences of heat, cold and water. But there were a few things to consider...

 

[Angsty]

That what I explained in another thread :
The obsession with protection leads to crazy decisions.... Topping implemented a pseudo anti-reverse engineering strategy without going through quality control. By wanting to skip the steps we end up endangering our image.
And in the end we discover under the "secret box" a pair of Opa1612....

Young company making young company mistakes, even when the circuit engineering is brilliant.

 

[TheBatsEar]

By wanting to skip the steps we end up endangering our image.

In my experience these types of amps have earned their reputation, many of us aren't surprised. Check out the pre-amp output on the Fosi V3.
Sadly it's impossible to talk about it without inviting some people that like to add drama, so we don't.

Young company making young company mistakes, even when the circuit engineering is brilliant.

True.

 

[daniboun]

Young company making young company mistakes, even when the circuit engineering is brilliant.

Certainly, but a young company that doesn't care about its mistakes will remain a bad young company.... Topping established in 2008 btw

 

[Angsty]

Certainly, but a young company that doesn't care about its mistakes will remain a bad young company.... Topping established in 2008 btw

There is a PA5 II now, so discussion of the PA5 in absence of that development seems to be more about history than current practice. And, that is on a different thread.

 

[TheBatsEar]

There is a PA5 II now, so discussion of the PA5 in absence of that development seems to be more about history than current practice.

I'm sure that doesn't help the people that bought the PA5, which, with all it's pros and cons, is very on topic in THIS thread.

 

[YSC]

Young company making young company mistakes, even when the circuit engineering is brilliant.

I do accept young and old company to make mistakes on design or longevity issues once a while, everyone makes mistakes. But the thing is that how they handled the malfunctioning units are what caught a lot of members here offguard and enraged on

 

[daniboun]

Personally I turned the Topping page following a double problem with my LA90 and PA5. But I came to this alternative and this module is neck to neck with the PA5 / RA3

Check here

 

[Angsty]

I'm sure that doesn't help the people that bought the PA5, which, with all it's pros and cons, is very on topic in THIS thread.

Understood; I was principally responding to the notion that “a young company that doesn't care about its mistakes will remain a bad young company.” Odd to say that they didn’t learn when they produced a revised product.

 

[Guddu]

Personally I turned the Topping page following a double problem with my LA90 and PA5. But I came to this alternative and this module is neck to neck with the PA5 / RA3

Check here

It’s very difficult for a non- so-technically-DIY-aware user, like me and many more, to consider a module vs fully assembled and tested amplifier.
3e might just capture a bigger segment by offering a ready to use amplifier, provided the module is comparable with PA5.

 

[xaxxon]

My PA5 started exhibiting a common issue with noise/crackling in one channel after two years. I know there are many such reports here. Before I start digging into this, maybe someone can tell me if it can be repaired? Links appreciated

I'd seriously contemplate whether it's worth repairing. My answer for me was "no"

 

[xaxxon]

Only being a casual reader of this site sometimes, I find the obsession with SINAD beyond the point of audibility and the promoting of audio products as exemplary simply on that measure to be rather odd. For me, an exemplary audio product will be one that lasts a long time.

Measurements are helpful in finding such a quality product, but I also research the company to see what kind of track record they have for making quality products and what kind of customer support they offer. I also like to see the internal build quality to determine as best I'm able from the limited bit I've learned so far and from seeking out comments and reviews from people with demonstrated expertise that the build quality is indeed high quality.

From what I can tell on ASR, if a product meets a limited set of measurements that's the totality of what it takes to get a rave review. It's no wonder to me then that such products are then being found to be less than high quality products in the long run. The products could or could not have longevity, but when one doesn't even explore the additional criteria that makes audio products, or any products really, high quality and worth the money to purchase, then one takes a greater gamble in being disappointed.

The odd part for me on ASR is that extensibly it's supposed to be a forum for rationality about audio products, and yet many members persist in what I'd call tunnel vision in accounting for only a very narrow measurement criteria, and that seems as irrational as other areas of the audio hobby with just a different focus.

You're literally 250 pages into a thread of comments complaining about a device that has very good measurements.

 

[daniboun]

It’s very difficult for a non- so-technically-DIY-aware user, like me and many more, to consider a module vs fully assembled and tested amplifier.
3e might just capture a bigger segment by offering a ready to use amplifier, provided the module is comparable with PA5.

I spoke with the 3E Audio guy about this point. I wish he could offer a "ready to use amp."...
But for the moment he is going to ship to Amir a full assembled amplifier so we can have a real full review )