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Topping PA5 Review (Amplifier)

Only being a casual reader of this site sometimes, I find the obsession with SINAD beyond the point of audibility and the promoting of audio products as exemplary simply on that measure to be rather odd. For me, an exemplary audio product will be one that lasts a long time.

Measurements are helpful in finding such a quality product, but I also research the company to see what kind of track record they have for making quality products and what kind of customer support they offer. I also like to see the internal build quality to determine as best I'm able from the limited bit I've learned so far and from seeking out comments and reviews from people with demonstrated expertise that the build quality is indeed high quality.

From what I can tell on ASR, if a product meets a limited set of measurements that's the totality of what it takes to get a rave review. It's no wonder to me then that such products are then being found to be less than high quality products in the long run. The products could or could not have longevity, but when one doesn't even explore the additional criteria that makes audio products, or any products really, high quality and worth the money to purchase, then one takes a greater gamble in being disappointed.

The odd part for me on ASR is that extensibly it's supposed to be a forum for rationality about audio products, and yet many members persist in what I'd call tunnel vision in accounting for only a very narrow measurement criteria, and that seems as irrational as other areas of the audio hobby with just a different focus.
I don't think that's true.
Lots of people here are constantly warning about stuff like the ones you describe (reliability,durability,built quality,ease of transactions,warranty and most importantly safety for the user and the chain up and downstream).
It's up to anyone who to believe and what to do,I believe we're all adults here.
 
It's no wonder to me then that such products are then being found to be less than high quality products in the long run.

Tells me more about the industry than ASR.

In an ideal world audio products would be both high performing and built to last. The saddest part is that high performance has become a gimmick of sorts.

Just about all audio manufacturers out there has made claims about their products having exceptionally high objective performance one of their key seeling points.
@amirm has, among other things, made it his mission to either verify or disproof those claims.

I see him more as an exposer of hypocrisy than a "reviewer", and I honestly find that aspect a lot more helpful.

When I want info on products besides purely objective performance, I seek it elsewhere.

And no, SINAD is not my be-all and end-all metric when choosing a product. Neither is it for most users in her. I have no idea why "outsiders" keep insisting on painting that particular picture of the typical ASR dweller :)
 
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I have no idea why "outsiders" keep insisting on painting that particular picture of the typical ASR dweller :)
Probably because people here buy them with a rate of 1 every 3 months and maintain 100+ page threads (specially the sub 200$ devices which is the main bulk) about them.
The big picture is painted by them and sadly not by super informative useful threads who don't exceed 2-3 pages,like this one for example:


 
And no, SINAD is not my be-all and end-all metric when choosing a product. Neither is it for most users in her. I have no idea why "outsiders" keep insisting on painting that particular picture of the typical ASR dweller :)
I can answer that fact for you. Whenever (or mostly) users here report differences in sound between devices they have listened to and compared, someone is pointing out to them that these devices are so close together in Sinad values that there can't be any audible differences, or these differences are beyond the audible range.

That suggests exactly this assumption.

PS:
Just to be clear, it's just the answer to a question asked.
It does not reflect my point of view or my opinion.
 
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I can answer that fact for you. Whenever (or mostly) users here report differences in sound between devices they have listened to and compared, someone is pointing out to them that these devices are so close together in Sinad values that there can't be any audible differences, or these differences are beyond the audible range.

That suggests exactly this assumption.

This caricature of ASR members as caring only about SINAD is rampant on subjective forums. It's a complete (and often deliberate) misunderstanding of measurements and what is being discussed here.
 
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This caricature of ASR members as caring only about SINAD is rampant on subjective forums. It's a complete (and often deliberate) misunderstanding of measurements and what is being discussed here.
Are you talking about a few, or many such members. I did not try to count, but I don't get the impression that a lot of them would care only about SINAD. There must be good reasons that Amir and others on ASR typically measured quite a few things, up to 10 or more sometimes, in addition to SINAD.
 
Are you talking about a few, or many such members. I did not try to count, but I don't get the impression that a lot of them would care only about SINAD. There must be good reasons that Amir and others on ASR typically measured quite a few things, up to 10 or more sometimes, in addition to SINAD.

I'm talking about the view of members of other, non-ASR forums, who often try to describe all ASR members (including Amir) as only caring about SINAD, which is far from the truth.
 
I can answer that fact for you. Whenever (or mostly) users here report differences in sound between devices they have listened to and compared, someone is pointing out to them that these devices are so close together in Sinad values that there can't be any audible differences, or these differences are beyond the audible range.

That suggests exactly this assumption.

I think many of those actually care and compare the other metrics ASR measured and presented, but as someone (could have been Amir) mentioned before, if the device measured very well in SINAD (pre outs, power amp outputs etc..), they tended to measure quite well in other things too such as IMD, SNR, DR, even multitone, cross talk, damping factor etc. Regardless, just because someone cited one metric, it does not mean your assumption of such a "fact" is correct. So, I would say in this case, what you consider a fact, is just your assumption. Note: May be I understood your point too, like I did earlier on pkane's.
 
I'm talking about the view of members of other, non-ASR forums, who often try to describe all ASR members (including Amir) as only caring about SINAD, which is far from the truth.

Thank goodness, coming from you, I was actually very surprised, now I am happy, thanks for the clarification.
 
One thing that I think can lead to the perception of overly focusing on measurements is this very thread. The review at the start praises and recommends this component, but it has turned out that it's anything but a high quality component due to all its failures. It may measure well, but who cares if it breaks within a two year or less time period. Despite that fact, Topping products are still getting high praise on the site from members and in reviews of their other products. I'm not sure of the ratio of members who promote Topping to those who don't, but just from scanning topics, it seems the ratio is more pro than con. With this thread, if a user only read the first few pages, not wanting to commit to reading 260+ pages of a thread, he may have the impression that the PA5 is a great product.
 
One thing that I think can lead to the perception of overly focusing on measurements is this very thread. The review at the start praises and recommends this component, but it has turned out that it's anything but a high quality component due to all its failures. It may measure well, but who cares if it breaks within a two year or less time period. Despite that fact, Topping products are still getting high praise on the site from members and in reviews of their other products. I'm not sure of the ratio of members who promote Topping to those who don't, but just from scanning topics, it seems the ratio is more pro than con. With this thread, if a user only read the first few pages, not wanting to commit to reading 260+ pages of a thread, he may have the impression that the PA5 is a great product.

Well, if you read ASR at all, you'll see that Amir doesn't test for reliability of a component. That is explicitly not part of the review/measurements that he performs, although other threads exist here by owners that report issues and failures. He also doesn't explicitly test every feature of the component, he doesn't test all the various inputs and outputs, etc. This is well known by those who participate in ASR, but perhaps it's not so obvious to those who do not.

I happen to have a PA5 that's been working fine with no issues for nearly two years, but I do see a large proportion of owners who had issues. Because of ASR and ASR members, the issue has been identified, the manufacturer extended the warranty for the product to two years, and has produced newer versions of the device that supposedly don't suffer from the same issues. But, those who are looking for a quick yes/no recommendation may miss all of this.

Which is why it's important to do your homework, and not to make assumptions about ASR or Amir's review threads. These represent measurements of the one device that he was sent by a members or by a manufacturer. That's it. And measurements contain much more than just the SINAD value, but no tests for reliability or even for usability of the device.
 
I think many of those actually care and compare the other metrics ASR measured and presented, but as someone (could have been Amir) mentioned before, if the device measured very well in SINAD (pre outs, power amp outputs etc..), they tended to measure quite well in other things too such as IMD, SNR, DR, even multitone, cross talk, damping factor etc. Regardless, just because someone cited one metric, it does not mean your assumption of such a "fact" is correct. So, I would say in this case, what you consider a fact, is just your assumption. Note: May be I understood your point too, like I did earlier on pkane's.
You already understood that I only gave the answer to one question?
It does not reflect my point of view or my opinion.
 
The review at the start praises and recommends this component, but it has turned out that it's anything but a high quality component due to all its failures.

Despite its high failure rate, it's still a high performance product... when it works.

I've seen $50K amps have failures because of similarly stupid design choices. The only difference here is, that when you reach those price tiers, the expences to get it fixed is considered "maintenance" rather than a dealbreaker.

I see the trouble, Topping has had, as a mix of growing pains and calculated risks inherent to "cheap" manufacturing.

Of course it doesn't exactly make me eager to buy their products, but any effectiveness in handeling warranty claims and imbursing the users will go a long way towards restoring my trust.
 
Well, if you read ASR at all, you'll see that Amir doesn't test for reliability of a component. That is explicitly not part of the review/measurements that he performs, although other threads exist here by owners that report issues and failures. He also doesn't explicitly test every feature of the component, he doesn't test all the various inputs and outputs, etc. This is well known by those who participate in ASR, but perhaps it's not so obvious to those who do not.

I happen to have a PA5 that's been working fine with no issues for nearly two years, but I do see a large proportion of owners who had issues. Because of ASR and ASR members, the issue has been identified, the manufacturer extended the warranty for the product to two years, and has produced newer versions of the device that supposedly don't suffer from the same issues. But, those who are looking for a quick yes/no recommendation may miss all of this.

Which is why it's important to do your homework, and not to make assumptions about ASR or Amir's review threads. These represent measurements of the one device that he was sent by a members or by a manufacturer. That's it. And measurements contain much more than just the SINAD value, but no tests for reliability or even for usability of the device.
Those are fair points, but I think it would be helpful to add an update to the original review post indicating that this product is no longer recommended (I am assuming this would be the case), so users can quickly get that information as well.
 
One thing that I think can lead to the perception of overly focusing on measurements is this very thread.
It's a review thread. That's what happens on review threads. Seems you didn't read the reliability thread or the repair the PA5 thread. You have gotten hung up on the review thread. Did you read the other threads I linked? It doesn't seem that way.

It may measure well, but who cares if it breaks within a two year or less time period.
We do have people come here with a "who cares" attitude, they are typically new members and are trolling. Often get flamed by more senior members. Not sure how to understand your contrarian statement.

Despite that fact, Topping products are still getting high praise on the site from members and in reviews of their other products. I'm not sure of the ratio of members who promote Topping to those who don't, but just from scanning topics, it seems the ratio is more pro than con. With this thread, if a user only read the first few pages, not wanting to commit to reading 260+ pages of a thread, he may have the impression that the PA5 is a great product.
You are observing and simultaneously contributing to the internet phenomenon where a bad product gets more press than a good product. I tried to give you a good response above, you went right back to painting the whole site as being a shill based on your perception of this thread. By responding I also risk inflating this thread, so I am done. Please go read other stuff.
 
It's a review thread. That's what happens on review threads. Seems you didn't read the reliability thread or the repair the PA5 thread. You have gotten hung up on the review thread. Did you read the other threads I linked? It doesn't seem that way.


We do have people come here with a "who cares" attitude, they are typically new members and are trolling. Often get flamed by more senior members. Not sure how to understand your contrarian statement.


You are observing and simultaneously contributing to the internet phenomenon where a bad product gets more press than a good product. I tried to give you a good response above, you went right back to painting the whole site as being a shill based on your perception of this thread. By responding I also risk inflating this thread, so I am done. Please go read other stuff.
I never called the site a shill, nor have I insulted anyone, so please don't misrepresent me as such. I'm engaging in a conversation, and I appreciate others' responses.
 
Those are fair points, but I think it would be helpful to add an update to the original review post indicating that this product is no longer recommended (I am assuming this would be the case), so users can quickly get that information as well.

Recommendation is and was based on measured performance of the one unit Amir evaluated, nothing else. If you read more into the review, that's on you.
 
Recommendation is and was based on measured performance of the one unit Amir evaluated, nothing else. If you read more into the review, that's on you.
I didn't read anything additional in the review. I was commenting on the findings by members after the review that the component has reliability issues. My assumption from that information is that it wouldn't be a recommendation any longer, like any other product that turned out to be unreliable.
 
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