Topping PA5 Review (Amplifier)

[Paco De Lucia]

Wow just got mine hooked up to my 1979 B&W 801f , the first model with 12 in woofers and I believe 86 ish sensitivity.
gustard x16 dac
streaming tidal only.
room 14x14 9 foot ceilings
5 windows and a flatscreen in the room. So I pull down the shade to soften things a bit.

JUST FOR LAUGHS….

I can tell you right off Amirm got so much wrong on this review and we should think twice about his logic from now on…what were you thinking.

1. this device make you USE separate banana plugs, now what do I do with all my standard size combo banana plugs, not very green

2. No mention of the lack of cool lights and meters, large heat sinks or tube guards so you don’t burn yourself. heck do you thing we listen to music for the sound. How to I impress other dudes with this little thing, hardly envy generating equipment. The music always sounds better when no one else can afford it.

3. No remote. Humph…now what do I do with all the extra time I spend looking for the remotes, we retired guys need a purpose to fill our days, not to mention all the Costco batteries we stockpile just in case. You call this fun.

4. And now don’t get me started on all the stereo furniture I had to talk the wife into for making my equipment presentable…my whole system now fits on a cigar box, anyone old enough to rem those. And my 3000 dollar iso therm demagnetized feet are now under my wife’s tea pots in case of earthquakes…what were you thinking by passing this as hifi.

anyway happy new year to all

and rem the code of the audiophile “If you can’t hear the difference it’s because your system(manhood) is not good enough.”

yeah that’s it down by the penguin. Feel my shame…
View attachment 175933

hahahaha , what does it sound like ? Mine drives my 800 matrix (slightly more modern than yours) very well

 

[DanielT]

Wow just got mine hooked up to my 1979 B&W 801f , the first model with 12 in woofers and I believe 86 ish sensitivity.
gustard x16 dac
streaming tidal only.
room 14x14 9 foot ceilings
5 windows and a flatscreen in the room. So I pull down the shade to soften things a bit.

JUST FOR LAUGHS….

I can tell you right off Amirm got so much wrong on this review and we should think twice about his logic from now on…what were you thinking.

1. this device make you USE separate banana plugs, now what do I do with all my standard size combo banana plugs, not very green

2. No mention of the lack of cool lights and meters, large heat sinks or tube guards so you don’t burn yourself. heck do you thing we listen to music for the sound. How to I impress other dudes with this little thing, hardly envy generating equipment. The music always sounds better when no one else can afford it.

3. No remote. Humph…now what do I do with all the extra time I spend looking for the remotes, we retired guys need a purpose to fill our days, not to mention all the Costco batteries we stockpile just in case. You call this fun.

4. And now don’t get me started on all the stereo furniture I had to talk the wife into for making my equipment presentable…my whole system now fits on a cigar box, anyone old enough to rem those. And my 3000 dollar iso therm demagnetized feet are now under my wife’s tea pots in case of earthquakes…what were you thinking by passing this as hifi.

anyway happy new year to all

and rem the code of the audiophile “If you can’t hear the difference it’s because your system(manhood) is not good enough.”

yeah that’s it down by the penguin. Feel my shame…
View attachment 175933

Lol, this is how a subjective description of a new hi-fi gadget should look like. Self-ironic, with a twinkle in the eye.

It's so much about the feeling. Why else would so many at ASR tinker with turntables? Everyone knows that the sound quality of vinyl is pretty pitiful but what does it matter? That's the beauty of Hifi, you can do as you please. ... or how it please your wife.

Nice turntables. Attached picture is an absolute requirement.

Post a picture of a vinyl lathe that you think looks good.:D Performance information, optional. I am most interested in some nice pictures. How vinyl sounds is of secondary importance. For me anyway.:) Feel free to tell us about your youth's vinyl player. Take a trip down memory lane...

audiosciencereview.com

 

[madDog]

If i wanted to pair a dac/headphone amp combo unit with this, is the ex5 the only sensible solution for around 370€. Any other units out there for around the same amount of money or less ?

 

[bsas]

OK, I really need someone to tell me what I am doing that is crazy wrong here.

Test scenario: Pi4 + Digi hat connected to the Topping E50 dac. Playing the same 5 minute white noise file over and over again.
Speakers: TriTrix MTM TL
• Impedance: 8 ohms
• Sensitivity: 86 dB 1W/1m
My db meter (A weighted) is about 3 ft from both speakers, never moved.

Test 1: Aiyima 07 maxed out, E50 at -15dB in the panel. Total volume: 73-74db (using the balanced output of the E50 to a single ended cable: TRS to RCA cable)
Test 2: PA5 maxed out, E50 at -15db in the panel. Total volume: 61db (using TRS balanced cables, that is a difference of 12-13 db!!!)
Test 2: PA5 maxed out, E50 at -1.5db in the panel. Total volume: 73-74db

So, I had to increase the E50 13.5dbs on the pre-out volume to match the volume. So, the volume difference I was talking about in my previous post is worse than I though. Why?

Here are pictures to prove it:

A07:

PA5 at -15db:

PA5 at -1.5db:

So...???

 

[mdsimon2]

Seems like the most likely explanation is you are seeing the difference in gain between the amplifiers. Amir's review of the A07 showed a gain of 29 dB but it is unclear if that was at max volume position. At a minimum the A07 has 10 dB more gain than the PA5.

The other potential issue I see is that your TRS to RCA adapter could be causing massive amounts of distortion and raising the output level of the A07, I would repeat the test using the RCA output in to the E50.

Do you have a multimeter? If you do I would make some basic gain measurements. Play a 1 kHz test tone at a low volume level (say -30 dB) and measure the voltage at your DAC output. Then measure the voltage at your speaker terminals using the same tone and volume position. Gain = 20*log(Vout/Vin).

Michael

 

[bsas]

Seems like the most likely explanation is you are seeing the difference in gain between the amplifiers. Amir's review of the A07 showed a gain of 29 dB but it is unclear if that was at max volume position. At a minimum the A07 has 10 dB more gain than the PA5.

The other potential issue I see is that your TRS to RCA adapter could be causing massive amounts of distortion and raising the output level of the A07, I would repeat the test using the RCA output in to the E50.

Do you have a multimeter? If you do I would make some basic gain measurements. Play a 1 kHz test tone at a low volume level (say -30 dB) and measure the voltage at your DAC output. Then measure the voltage at your speaker terminals using the same tone and volume position. Gain = 20*log(Vout/Vin).

Michael

So, if this is expected, why when I said that the PA5 was underpowered for me compared to the A07 everyone said I was crazy?

 

[pkane]

So, if this is expected, why when I said that the PA5 was underpowered for me compared to the A07 everyone said I was crazy?

Because gain is not the same as power.

 

[bsas]

Seems like the most likely explanation is you are seeing the difference in gain between the amplifiers. Amir's review of the A07 showed a gain of 29 dB but it is unclear if that was at max volume position. At a minimum the A07 has 10 dB more gain than the PA5.

The other potential issue I see is that your TRS to RCA adapter could be causing massive amounts of distortion and raising the output level of the A07, I would repeat the test using the RCA output in to the E50.

Do you have a multimeter? If you do I would make some basic gain measurements. Play a 1 kHz test tone at a low volume level (say -30 dB) and measure the voltage at your DAC output. Then measure the voltage at your speaker terminals using the same tone and volume position. Gain = 20*log(Vout/Vin).

Michael

Wait, I am confused:

1) The RCA output of the E50 is half the power (4Vrms vs 2Vrms) of the XLR. So, in theory I would not even be comparing apples to apples, right?
2) Why does it matter the E50 output if I did not change it during tests?

 

[bsas]

Because gain is not the same as power.

But the final result which is a far lower volume (aka "underpowered" during listening) is the same, no?

 

[NTK]

Wait, I am confused:

1) The RCA output of the E50 is half the power (4Vrms vs 2Vrms) of the XLR. So, in theory I would not even be comparing apples to apples, no?
2) Why does it matter the E50 output if I did not change it during tests?

The PA5 was designed to operate with its upstream sources volume set to max or near max. Have you raised the volume of your Pi to max?

 

[pkane]

But the final result which is a far lower volume (aka "underpowered") is the same, no?

You just need to feed the amp higher input level to get more power. Maximum power of an amp is defined as the point where output distortions exceed some specific threshold, say 1% THD. As an example, a low-gain amp might output maximum power of 100W before getting to 1%, while a high-gain amp might output only 10W. Which one has more power?

 

[mdsimon2]

Wait, I am confused:

1) The RCA output of the E50 is half the power (4Vrms vs 2Vrms) of the XLR. So, in theory I would not even be comparing apples to apples, right?
2) Why does it matter the E50 output if I did not change it during tests?

If you are converting TRS to RCA you will only be able to get 2 V output.

Your measurements are a bit weird because I would have expected the difference to be less, although the PA5 has lower gain this will be offset somewhat because the balanced outputs of the E50 in to the PA5 will be 6 dB hotter than the signal going to the A07.

For gain all that matters is comparing input to output.

Michael

 

[bsas]

The PA5 was designed to operate with its upstream sources volume set to max or near max. Have you raised the volume of your Pi to max?

Pi is set to max (I always set Volumio to NOT control the volume, so, it is a bitstream bypass. Also, no change on ANY other component between tests (that is a way to test something, right?)

If you are converting TRS to RCA you will only be able to get 2 V output.

Your measurements are a bit weird because I would have expected the difference to be less, although the PA5 has lower gain this will be offset somewhat because the balanced outputs of the E50 in to the PA5 will be 6 dB hotter than the signal going to the A07.

For gain all that matters is comparing input to output.

Michael

That is true. But, if the RCA is 6db "hotter" it would also not be an honest comparison. Actually, the A07 in theory would be LOUDER, no? I still think there should be no change on any component during tests, right?

You just need to feed the amp higher input level to get more power. Maximum power of an amp is defined as the point where output distortions exceed some specific threshold, say 1% THD. As an example, a low-gain amp might output maximum power of 100W, while a high-gain amp might output only 10W. Which one has more power?

OK, I understand that, but, my first statement was: the PA5 is underpowered (lower volume) maxed out than the A07 and everyone called me crazy. I understand that the A07 is probably distorting more at max than the PA5, but, my original statement is still valid, no?

Maybe I am using the wording "underpowered" and I am getting confused with "power" (wattage). Let's say it "produces very little volume" maybe?

Also, I am feeding the amp the official manufacturer suggested DAC output... that in theory it is 4Vrms (far more than 2.5Vrms required), no?

 

[mdsimon2]

That is true. But, if the RCA is 6db "hotter" it would also not be an honest comparison. Actually, the A07 in theory would be LOUDER, no? I still think there should be no change on any component during tests, right?

TRS is 6 dB hotter than RCA, this should lessen the volume difference although the A07 would still be expected to be louder than the PA5 given the same input voltage.

Please measure the gain if you can, it is the best way to explain what is going on.

Michael

 

[bsas]

TRS is 6 dB hotter than RCA, this should lessen the volume difference although the A07 would still be expected to be louder than the PA5 given the same input voltage.

Please measure the gain if you can, it is the best way to explain what is going on.

Michael

OK, to measure it what should I do? Put a multimeter on the TRS points and measure voltage (AC) on the white noise?

 

[pkane]

OK, I understand that, but, my first statement was: the PA5 is underpowered (lower volume) maxed out than the A07 and everyone called me crazy. I understand that the A07 is probably distorting more at max than the PA5, but, my original statement is still valid, no?

Maybe I am using the wording "underpowered" and I am getting confused with "power" (wattage). Let's say it "produces very little volume" maybe?

Also, I am feeding the amp the official manufacturer suggested DAC output... that in theory it is 4Vrms (far more than 2.5Vrms required), no?

Gain difference is what's causing the same input level to output a different volume. Gain, by spec and by measurements, is different between these two amps, so this is expected. That doesn't mean that PA5 can't play as loud or even louder than AO7, all that means is that at the same input level they will produce a different output (PA5 - lower, AO7 - higher).

 

[mdsimon2]

OK, to measure it what should I do? Put a multimeter on the TRS points and measure voltage (AC) on the white noise?

Yes, AC voltage measured between tip and ring for TRS and measured between center pin and outer shield for RCA. Use a test tone, not white noise. I would try 1 kHz but depending on your multimeter you may need to use something lower in frequency like 100 Hz. Do this at a relatively low volume position (-30 dB). Then measure the voltage at the amplifier output (speaker terminals) at the same volume position. Basically we want to compare the voltage in and out of the amplifier.

Michael

 

[bsas]

Gain difference is what's causing the same input level to output a different volume. Gain, by spec and by measurements, is different between these two amps, so this is expected. That doesn't mean that PA5 can't play as loud or even louder than AO7, all that means is that at the same input level they will produce a different output (PA5 - lower, AO7 - higher).

I don't understand. How can I make the PA5 louder? Providing MORE voltage on the input? If so, why the E50 (the recommended DAC from the manufacturer) doesn't provide the necessary voltage to it? And, if I provide more voltage on the input for BOTH, doesn't the A07 will still be louder?

 

[pkane]

I don't understand. How can I make the PA5 louder? Providing MORE voltage on the input? If so, why the E50 (the recommended DAC from the manufacturer) doesn't provide the necessary voltage to it? And, if I provide more voltage on the input for BOTH, doesn't the A07 will still be louder?

All I can tell you is 19dB of gain will result in 10dB lower output than 29dB of gain at the same input level. Which DAC matches each of the amps and your system, and whether you need a preamp or not is something you'll have to figure out based on the measurements and specs of both, your DAC, and speakers.

 

[bsas]

Yes, AC voltage measured between tip and ring for TRS and measured between center pin and outer shield for RCA. Use a test tone, not white noise. I would try 1 kHz but depending on your multimeter you may need to use something lower in frequency like 100 Hz. Do this at a relatively low volume position (-30 dB). Then measure the voltage at the amplifier output (speaker terminals) at the same volume position. Basically we want to compare the voltage in and out of the amplifier.

Michael

Just tested, both signals on each XLR generates 2.065V (expected) and obviously 4.13V if you compare them to each other using a 1kHz sine wave input.

The TRS to RCA cable is also outputting perfect 2.065V on the same wave.

I tested again with a louder white noise source and still, on the same output level on the E50 DAC the Aiyima consistently produces 10-12db louder output.