Thoughts on Accuphase 800 not powering speakers as good as Luxman?

[dman777]

I was set on buying the Luxman 595 aes amp. Then I saw this youtube video comparing the Luxman 595 to the Accuphase E-650. I found I liked the Accuphase E 650 sound more. Then I was considering the E-650 instead. But then I found this other video where the guy compared the Luxman 590 AXii to the Accuphase E-800. Now, these are not exactly the same amps but pretty close because the Luxman 595 is a later iteration of the 590 and the Accuphase E-800 is a later iteration of the 650. Bot class A and same specs.

What are your thoughts about the guy saying that the Accuphase had a hard time driving his speakers while the Luxman had no issues? Being they are the same watts and class A. That kind of scares me of buying the Accuphase E-650 now even though I think (from that video) I would like the E-650 more (more balanced where I might not get fatigued).

 

[bargainguy]

1. Stop watching videos.

2. Trust your own ears.

3. Buy either one, audition it for awhile.

4. If you don't like it, sell it and buy the other.

5. Done.

 

[Spocko]

1. Stop watching videos.

2. Trust your own ears.

3. Buy either one, audition it for awhile.

4. If you don't like it, sell it and buy the other.

5. Done.

As the "bargainguy" would you ever consider these expensive amps? They're definitely NOT bargains

 

[Spocko]

I was set on buying the Luxman 595 aes amp. Then I saw this youtube video comparing the Luxman 595 to the Accuphase E-650. I found I liked the Accuphase E 650 sound more. Then I was considering the E-650 instead. But then I found this other video where the guy compared the Luxman 590 AXii to the Accuphase E-800. Now, these are not exactly the same amps but pretty close because the Luxman 595 is a later iteration of the 590 and the Accuphase E-800 is a later iteration of the 650. Bot class A and same specs.

What are your thoughts about the guy saying that the Accuphase had a hard time driving his speakers while the Luxman had no issues? Being they are the same watts and class A. That kind of scares me of buying the Accuphase E-650 now even though I think (from that video) I would like the E-650 more (more balanced where I might not get fatigued).

Every speaker has different requirements in terms of sensitivity and load so how those amps affect his speakers are not necessarily what you'll experience and more importantly, your subjective preferences require that you do your own comparisons. Just buy one and hope for the best.

 

[bargainguy]

@Spocko: Are you implying my handle disqualifies me from this discussion? That I shouldn't play in this league?

I'm not the one buying an amp here. My tastes are irrelevant to the OPs. Just lending reinforcement for the OP to make his own decisions and trust them.

 

[Spocko]

@Spocko: Are you implying my handle disqualifies me from this discussion? That I shouldn't play in this league?

I'm not the one buying an amp here. My tastes are irrelevant to the OPs. Just lending reinforcement for the OP to make his own decisions and trust them.

Sorry, didn't mean to offend - I just thought it was humorous in a Seinfeld kinda way, I mean, I of all people I can totally empathize right? My channel is called "Stop the FOMO" but my reviews cause more FOMO than it stops!

 

[GXAlan]

I have owned some Luxman and some Accuphase gear. All I have in the flagship realm is the Marantz PM-10 now.

In general, Accuphase measures better but is more expensive and everything, like a phono amp, is an added cost option. Luxman is more full featured. In the US, there is an additional price markup over what you would expect based upon Yen conversion for Accuphase which makes Luxman a better bargain in the U.S.

The E-270 was tested here, got bad reviews, but is basically the very best Class AB amp tested here…. So you have to put that into perspective.

The Accuphase amps generally have higher damping factor and balanced remote sensing for additional negative feedback which may or may not make a difference depending on your scenarios.

In any case, recordings can result in a lot of variability between systems, so it’s hard to make judgments. Even the most ardent of “amps sound different” fans, would acknowledge that the difference is subtle. That is, it might be very different in specific portions of a song, but at this high level of solid state, they are more similar than different. Therefore, if there are BIG differences in a YouTube video, you should be skeptical.

 

[dman777]

Sorry, didn't mean to offend - I just thought it was humorous in a Seinfeld kinda way, I mean, I of all people I can totally empathize right? My channel is called "Stop the FOMO" but my reviews cause more FOMO than it stops!

Oh wow, I didn't realize that was you! I watch your channel when I am researching tvs!

I have FOMO for the Luxman 595 because it is the last class A amp from Luxman. And I think the Accuphase E-650 is no longer produced. As time goes by, ebay will not have new stock items of these like it does right now.

 

[dman777]

I have owned some Luxman and some Accuphase gear. All I have in the flagship realm is the Marantz PM-10 now.

In general, Accuphase measures better but is more expensive and everything, like a phono amp, is an added cost option. Luxman is more full featured. In the US, there is an additional price markup over what you would expect based upon Yen conversion for Accuphase which makes Luxman a better bargain in the U.S.

The E-270 was tested here, got bad reviews, but is basically the very best Class AB amp tested here…. So you have to put that into perspective.

The Accuphase amps generally have higher damping factor and balanced remote sensing for additional negative feedback which may or may not make a difference depending on your scenarios.

In any case, recordings can result in a lot of variability between systems, so it’s hard to make judgments. Even the most ardent of “amps sound different” fans, would acknowledge that the difference is subtle. That is, it might be very different in specific portions of a song, but at this high level of solid state, they are more similar than different. Therefore, if there are BIG differences in a YouTube video, you should be skeptical.

I'm the type of person that notices that 10% variation like it's 100%. Wish I was not like that, I would be a lot richer and happier in life..... lol.

My friend watched that video with me and he could tell the difference also.

 

[GXAlan]

I'm the type of person that notices that 10% variation like it's 100%. Wish I was not like that, I would be a lot richer and happier in life..... lol.

My friend watched that video with me and he could tell the difference also.

You would be someone who would benefit from getting some test gear like an E1DA Cosmos. I am like you in that I notice subtle variations that may occur 10% of the time, but value it.

Stuff like this would seem like voodoo if I just talked about it, but when you measure it, it at least gets to things that are measurable but maybe not audible.

Measured effect of cable routing/component placement

In DIY amplifier kits, there is often talk of cable routing and effects on measured performance. Here I would like to show the difference with real, premium electronics using worst case topologies. Test Setup Topping D90 MQA Belden 8423 0.8m XLR balanced cable Marantz PM-10 integrated amp...

www.audiosciencereview.com

The key is that it’s no added incremental cost once you buy your ADC.

This also gives you peace of mind when buying used gear, or the peace of mind that your actual unit bought new is performing to spec and there wasn’t shipping damage or any issue with the supply chain and part replacement.

What I am saying is that the difference in the video is unlikely to be a real reflection of the two amps sound. Usually the two are not recorded under identical conditions or there is some sighted bias.

Measured effect of cable routing/component placement

In DIY amplifier kits, there is often talk of cable routing and effects on measured performance. Here I would like to show the difference with real, premium electronics using worst case topologies. Test Setup Topping D90 MQA Belden 8423 0.8m XLR balanced cable Marantz PM-10 integrated amp...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Once you have your own test gear, you can see the effect of dirty noise in your own home AC at different times of day.

Kenwood L-08M Monoblock Amplifier (Vintage Review)

Kenwood L-08M Monoblock Amplifier Review (Vintage Gear; QuirkAudio restored) Where were you in 1980? In Tokyo, Japan, a small team of engineers released the most sophisticated amplifier of its time... A bit of history In the 1970's, an elite team of veteran Trio-Kenwood engineers left the...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[MaxwellsEq]

Personally, I think it's a mistake to put faith in any YouTube video recordings of different music systems. If the reviewer used world-class microphones, microphone preamplifiers and ADCs, you are at best listening to their room. You also need evidence that all levels used are electrically identical. You then need evidence that absolutely nothing was physically moved in the room, even by a few millimetres between "takes" and that the reviewer (if they were in the room) sat in exactly the same location to the nearest millimetre and did not move. And, finally, YouTube processes the sound so much that only gross difference could be obvious.

I'm not challenging the integrity or the belief systems of the reviewers - I'm sure most of them believe what they claim and believe they are helping others. But, personally I don't put any faith in this approach for device selection.

 

[Geert]

Being they are the same watts and class A. That kind of scares me of buying the Accuphase E-650 now even though I think (from that video) I would like the E-650 more (more balanced where I might not get fatigued).

Drop your obsession with class A and live becomes so much easier (and less expensive). Just a personal mental tip from a unqualified engineer, feel free to ignore and do whatever makes you happy

But since we're on a science driven forum; all evidence suggests class A versus a well engineered class AB is inaudible, while class A wastes lots of energy and is far more expensive if you require high power. Argument could be extended to class D but for a lot of people that's still a bridge to far. (Call to all; let's not high jack this topic with that discussion).

And technically, the Luxman and Accuphase amps are actually class AB, they're just capable of delivering a decent amount of power in class A. But if you're really into class A, the Accuphase delivers far more power in that range of operation. So if class A operation is that important, funny that the reviewer suggest it's the Luxman that performs better. Or is it that the Luxman starts generating euphonic distortion when you push it? Difficult to conclude from a YouTube video.

 

[Galliardist]

The first question to my mind is “what speakers”.

The second is “what room”.

I see from your previous threads that you are also considering new speakers, and quite differently conceived ones at that. One of your proposed speakers, the B&W 800D4, is most unlikely to be driven well by the Luxman: the Accuphase may do the job.

The point then? At least choose the new speakers first. You can actually buy the amp before the speakers: it makes sense to do it that way around if your current amp won’t drive your selected speakers.

If you already have your speakers for the future, then you need to say what they are, along with room size and listening distance, etc.

I’d echo not choosing from YouTube videos, and add to make sure your chosen equipment is going to work with local power and has proper local warranty. You are proposing massive expenditure so take no risks.

 

[DanielT]

I was set on buying the Luxman 595 aes amp. Then I saw this youtube video comparing the Luxman 595 to the Accuphase E-650. I found I liked the Accuphase E 650 sound more. Then I was considering the E-650 instead. But then I found this other video where the guy compared the Luxman 590 AXii to the Accuphase E-800. Now, these are not exactly the same amps but pretty close because the Luxman 595 is a later iteration of the 590 and the Accuphase E-800 is a later iteration of the 650. Bot class A and same specs.

What are your thoughts about the guy saying that the Accuphase had a hard time driving his speakers while the Luxman had no issues? Being they are the same watts and class A. That kind of scares me of buying the Accuphase E-650 now even though I think (from that video) I would like the E-650 more (more balanced where I might not get fatigued).

What signal source are you using? Physical media such as CDs, Vinyl or do you stream music?

What kind of speakers do you have?
(Galliardist wondered the same thing, I see that now)

Try a class D amplifier when you are in the process of purchasing a new amp. A Topping TP RA3 perhaps? It only costs around a hundredth of what the Luxman 595 costs.
You can buy a Topping TP RA3 in addition to the amp you will buy just because it's fun to test.
TP RA3 has nice "clean" watts. Low distortion (that you don't hear). With the right type of speaker, you won't be fatigued by that amp. It does not have an exhausting sound. In fact, it has no sound at all. It only amplifies the signal without coloring the sound.If, on the other hand, you WANT to color the sound, a tube amp can be a solution.
TP RA3 has even more power than the 30 watts you are thinking about now.

Maybe its looks could be a deciding factor though? In terms of looks, the Accuphase easily wins over Topping RA3. In any case, I think so.

TP RA3 Rackmount Amplifier Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the TP (Topping) RA3 stereo balanced rackmount amplifier. It was sent to me by the company and costs US $229. Yes, this is a new sub-brand from Topping. I quite like it. The large and highly visible volume level is as gorgeous to look at as it is...

audiosciencereview.com

Edit
Forget what "audiophiles" sometimes say about class D amplifiers, i.e. that they are not suitable for "High End" HiFi. In fact, it is now the other way around.
In fact, it is now the other way around. The development of class D amplifiers has progressed. There are now really good "High End" class D amplifiers on the market. Amir has tested quite a few class D jewels.
Those who claim that class D is not for "High End" HiFi are just conservative dusty old HiFi guys.

 

[DSJR]

Any perceived (imagined) differences in amps on the likes of Youtube are going to be SWAMPED by compression/distortion in any recording made and presented on Youtube by usually amateurs. Sorry to be blunt but it's absolutely true I'm afraid!

Neither the current Luxmans nor Accuphases I've heard sound bright, 'overly crisp/sharp' in the slightest. Indeed, they're like styled and heavily bling'd up Quad Artera in subjective nature (a good thing, except the Artera Play and Stereo amp is three grand or so the pair compared to around double for the Luxman here and triple I think for the Accuphase).

I love the Accuphase style, the build, the aftercare/parts potential from the makers, but the cost per add-on module is absolutely ridiculous today in these more austere times, not that it bothers their market overmuch. The Luxmans weigh a ton and there's no empty space inside it seems from peering into the top grilles and again, the 'feel' of the controls is luxury I have to say, but again, they're very costly when the aforementioned Quad sounds as good for half the outlay (that 606 amp did set standards back then and only the appearance originally put me off, the current and slightly better Artera version has had it's innards and case given a positive makeover I think).

I haven't even started on the new Class D amps out there now, but if you still hanker after an Accuphase, PLEASE enter the purchase knowing that you're buying into a status enhancing so pricey luxury brand with a basic good tech performance I'm sure and with visuals and build/feel to match.

 

[GXAlan]

A lot of the cheap Class D amps use DC power supplies that are not UL listed. That is not quite like the OceanGate sub, but there is a reason why electrical certification is valuable. The problem with a budget amp is the risk that it takes out your much more expensive speakers along the way. It’s not just sound quality.

That said, taking out your speakers may be a worthwhile risk since it’s vanishingly small and if it does break, it’s not like a deep see submersible that will kill you…

The only Accuphase’s that break are ones that are 30+ years old and when they break, as long as you bought it through official channels, you have world class service. They have a truly Japanese philosophy of “stay in business, don’t worry about growth and shareholder return”. This means that they stock vintage parts that are out of production for just about every era of product, and they are very fiscally responsible to ensure that they are cash flow positive and pay their employees etc.

Accuphase is very measurement driven which is what you find in their marketing literature too.

One of the best Class D amps is the Marantz PM-10 which runs bridged NC500’s with an all balanced front end/buffer. I have posted measurements. It beats any NC500 here and pretty matched the NCx500OEM/Nilai at lower power.

HOWEVER, in the sub 2W power level, you will see that even the Marantz will lose to a Yamaha AS-3200 or any of the x80 or newer 4-digit series from Accuphase.

5W SINAD, Class D is great. But measurements do show strengths of Class A and AB that isn’t just audiophile myth.

Look at these integrated amps.

Accuphase E-800

Stereo: Produkt

www.stereo.de

Noise ratio from high-level input at 50mW (1kHz):	83 dB
Noise ratio from high-level input at 5W (1kHz):	103 dB

NAD M32

Stereo: Produkt

www.stereo.de

Noise ratio from high-level input at 50mW (1kHz):	70.3 dB
Noise ratio from high-level input at 5W (1kHz):	83.2 dB

Yamaha AS-3200

Stereo: Produkt

www.stereo.de

Noise ratio from high-level input at 50mW (1kHz):	-92 dB
Noise ratio from high-level input at 5W (1kHz):	-93 dB

NAD M33

Stereo: Produkt

www.stereo.de

Noise ratio from high-level input at 50mW (1kHz):	77/84 dB
Noise ratio from high-level input at 5W (1kHz):	97/103 dB

 

[dman777]

A lot of the cheap Class D amps use DC power supplies that are not UL listed. That is not quite like the OceanGate sub, but there is a reason why electrical certification is valuable. The problem with a budget amp is the risk that it takes out your much more expensive speakers along the way. It’s not just sound quality.

That said, taking out your speakers may be a worthwhile risk since it’s vanishingly small and if it does break, it’s not like a deep see submersible that will kill you…

The only Accuphase’s that break are ones that are 30+ years old and when they break, as long as you bought it through official channels, you have world class service. They have a truly Japanese philosophy of “stay in business, don’t worry about growth and shareholder return”. This means that they stock vintage parts that are out of production for just about every era of product, and they are very fiscally responsible to ensure that they are cash flow positive and pay their employees etc.

Accuphase is very measurement driven which is what you find in their marketing literature too.

One of the best Class D amps is the Marantz PM-10 which runs bridged NC500’s with an all balanced front end/buffer. I have posted measurements. It beats any NC500 here and pretty matched the NCx500OEM/Nilai at lower power.

HOWEVER, in the sub 2W power level, you will see that even the Marantz will lose to a Yamaha AS-3200 or any of the x80 or newer 4-digit series from Accuphase.

5W SINAD, Class D is great. But measurements do show strengths of Class A and AB that isn’t just audiophile myth.

Look at these integrated amps.

Accuphase E-800

Stereo: Produkt

www.stereo.de

Noise ratio from high-level input at 50mW (1kHz):	83 dB
Noise ratio from high-level input at 5W (1kHz):	103 dB

NAD M32

Stereo: Produkt

www.stereo.de

Noise ratio from high-level input at 50mW (1kHz):	70.3 dB
Noise ratio from high-level input at 5W (1kHz):	83.2 dB

Yamaha AS-3200

Stereo: Produkt

www.stereo.de

Noise ratio from high-level input at 50mW (1kHz):	-92 dB
Noise ratio from high-level input at 5W (1kHz):	-93 dB

NAD M33

Stereo: Produkt

www.stereo.de

Noise ratio from high-level input at 50mW (1kHz):	77/84 dB
Noise ratio from high-level input at 5W (1kHz):	97/103 dB

Why does the Yamaha have negative numbers?

 

[dman777]

I used to be skeptical about YouTube videos and audio. However in my real life experience, it does give a pretty good representation. For instance, I owned the Sonetto II speakers for a while and they did sound like this video

I definitely am curious about class d also. Since I heard class a and fell in love with it at the Hi-Fi shop, I know I like that so starting with that. Especially when the cheaper integrated class A's are no longer on the market, they seem to be discontinued. I would have to go to monoblocks for class a which would be really expensive and not what I want.

But later on, I do plan on trying the techniques r 1000. That's really the only class d I would ever go for.

 

[MAB]

But later on, I do plan on trying the techniques r 1000. That's really the only class d I would ever go for.

Why only that?

 

[Mnyb]

Personally, I think it's a mistake to put faith in any YouTube video recordings of different music systems. If the reviewer used world-class microphones, microphone preamplifiers and ADCs, you are at best listening to their room. You also need evidence that all levels used are electrically identical. You then need evidence that absolutely nothing was physically moved in the room, even by a few millimetres between "takes" and that the reviewer (if they were in the room) sat in exactly the same location to the nearest millimetre and did not move. And, finally, YouTube processes the sound so much that only gross difference could be obvious.

I'm not challenging the integrity or the belief systems of the reviewers - I'm sure most of them believe what they claim and believe they are helping others. But, personally I don't put any faith in this approach for device selection.

+1
The artefacts you get by recording in room and grind the recording trough YouTube compression is magnitudes bigger than the actual differences between competent amplifiers . Microphones are not ears they are not stand ins for you in that room , they capture stuff differently and your brian is not in that room to do it’s thing to adapt to the room acoustics.

In fact if you actually hear a difference in the video , it’s a tell tale that something is wrong ! As such an difference can’t be from the amps !

You simply can’t use YouTube videos for the purpose of comparing audio products it does not work .
And if a reviewer can’t grasp this ? Something else is wrong to to ?

And yes I would also like a Luxman or Accuphase , if you want to pay high end money these are functional electronic art pieces that’s also decent amplifiers and the build quality is very high and service is impeccable in case of Accuphase.

However I’m a bit to frugal so I would optimise for more performance for my own money and end up with something else .