The Truth About Vinyl Records

[MattHooper]

Never mind, right or wrong, it's all about the debate!

No that would be more like trolling. I do care about what is right or wrong - I defend things I believe, try not to stray out of my lane of knowledge, and welcome being corrected if wrong.

After all, today’s streaming listeners include many who once were vinyl, then moved to CD without a teary goodbye, and similarly from CD to downloads, from downloads to streaming.

Right. Different people prefer different ways of listening to music. You have chosen the route that satisfies your emotional desire to listen to music.
Otherwise...why did you make any choice?

But the Vinyl Defenders are stuck. And they are stuck because they are attached.

Stuck how? I listen to digital music and streaming all the time. Do you really imagine this isn't available to people who also listen to vinyl?
You guys really are trying so hard to find some divide to feel superior. It's very strange.

And they are stuck because they are attached. Now, that’s what emotional investment looks like.

So...let's see how emotionally attached you are to digital music. Ready to switch to vinyl? Or cassette? I mean...why not? You aren't too invested in digital right? If someone took away your digital source and replaced it with records and a turntable...you wouldn't "feel" a thing, is that correct?

 

[Waxx]

In the meantime: BBC: Vinyl records outsell CDs for first time in decades

I'm also tired to hear it's a fad. The return of vinyl started over 15 years ago and is still growing, also with youngsters. While cd is fading out and digital is seen as less engaging by many.

For me, do what you want, i do that also and that is a combination of vinyl and streaming from my own server full of hi res digital files. And if you don't like that....

 

[MattHooper]

In the meantime: BBC: Vinyl records outsell CDs for first time in decades

I'm also tired to hear it's a fad. The return of vinyl started over 15 years ago and is still growing, also with youngsters. While cd is fading out and digital is seen as less engaging by many.

For me, do what you want, i do that also and that is a combination of vinyl and streaming from my own server full of hi res digital files. And if you don't like that....

But are you aware that vinyl isn't as accurate as digital?

This is something you really need to hear. And I suggest visiting this thread at regular intervals where you are sure to be reminded lest you forget.
But, that's what happens when you just choose with your heart, not your brain. You become all forgetful about these things.

 

[Soandso]

In the meantime: BBC: Vinyl records outsell CDs for first time in decades

I'm also tired to hear it's a fad. The return of vinyl started over 15 years ago and is still growing, also with youngsters. While cd is fading out and digital is seen as less engaging by many.

For me, do what you want, i do that also and that is a combination of vinyl and streaming from my own server full of hi res digital files. And if you don't like that....

 

[Newman]

For me, do what you want, i do that also and that is a combination of vinyl and streaming from my own server full of hi res digital files. And if you don't like that....

Give me the name of one person on the planet who doesn‘t like that you do what you want….

Seriously, LOL.

Let’s hear it for paranoia.

 

[Newman]

View attachment 271564

Well at least it’s not a fad! Were you aware that it’s not a fad? This is something you really need to hear. And I suggest visiting this thread at regular intervals where you are sure to be reminded lest you forget.

But, that’s what happens when people choose their recordings with their heart, not their brain. They become forgetful about things like what music players they actually own.

 

[Galliardist]

But are you aware that vinyl isn't as accurate as digital?

This is something you really need to hear. And I suggest visiting this thread at regular intervals where you are sure to be reminded lest you forget.
But, that's what happens when you just choose with your heart, not your brain. You become all forgetful about these things.

Well at least it’s not a fad! Were you aware that it’s not a fad? This is something you really need to hear. And I suggest visiting this thread at regular intervals where you are sure to be reminded lest you forget.

But, that’s what happens when people choose their recordings with their heart, not their brain. They become forgetful about things like what music players they actually own.

Well, I think we can say this argument is indeed emotional.

It's probably time for the two of you to go and listen to some music....

 

[Newman]

…preferably on gear that has decent standards… …unemotional standards, set by people who didn’t set them emotionally, and bought by people who think the same way!

 

[Leporello]

While cd is fading out and digital is seen as less engaging by many.

By how many? Physical sales account for about 10 - 11 % of the music market. If vinyl's share is 70% of that, vinyl's share of the total music market is 7 - 8 %. Obviously not very many find digital less engaging (and the majority of those who do read about it on the Internet).

 

[egellings]

I agree; live and let live, er, listen and let listen. If you like vinyl, enjoy; if not, pass it by.

 

[Soandso]

My lived truth about vinyl records is they are my go to music when upstairs hip-hop neighbor in this 100 year old wood house plays his 6 foot wide television loud at 4:00 or 5:00 in the morning over my bedroom. Nothing is quicker for me to deploy than some old vinyl rock concert platter which has audience applause cranked up on my stereo under his bedroom set on automatic play repeat for hours while I put 3M ear foam ear plugs in and nostalgically go back to bed.

 

[MattHooper]

By how many? Physical sales account for about 10 - 11 % of the music market. If vinyl's share is 70% of that, vinyl's share of the total music market is 7 - 8 %. Obviously not very many find digital less engaging (and the majority of those who do read about it on the Internet).

That would still amount to "many people" which I believe is Waxx's point. A small portion of a huge number of people is still "many people."

It's clear that streaming suits the desires of a huge number of people. While I'm a fan of vinyl I've been mostly streaming music for the past several days - Tidal, Apple Music and a whole bunch of streaming youtube music videos in my home theater systems - one of my favorite ways to enjoy and discover new music. (And boy have I gone down a rabbit hole! I'm LOVING the latest take on progressive rock/math rock. There are some absolutely monstrous musicians in that game).

But there are some (smaller, obviously) portion of people who find streaming has been a "careful what you wish for" scenario, in terms of how it's affect on their personal relationship with music listening:

‘There’s endless choice, but you’re not listening’: fans quitting Spotify to save their love of music

Former streaming service subscribers on why they have ditched mod cons for MP3s, CDs and other DIY music formats

www.theguardian.com

I certainly recognize a similar issue which led me to playing more vinyl. However, while that article mentions vinyl, I think, once, it's not about vinyl. Interestingly
a number of the participants are using other ways of curating their music, including downloading rather than streaming, CDs, ipods/mp3s etc.

“Taking the extra step to load it on to my phone, or the extra step to flip over the tape, or put the CD on in the car, it feels like something that I’m doing, rather than something I’m receiving,” they continue. “And that sense of agency makes me a more dedicated and involved listener than the kind of passive listening-without-listening that streaming was making me do.”

Interesting. Whatever works for someone...good on them for finding what works!

Personally I have come to resist streaming music just as background music. I find that if, for instance, we have our smart speaker streaming music continuously I get overloaded and "music'd out." I'm less inclined to take a break by listening to music on my 2 channel system. So mostly I prefer to give music my direct attention (and I actually find background music distracting if I actually like the music!). That deliberate attention may go to music from my digital sources, or from my turntable.

I wonder if anyone else here has a similar reaction to their choice when to stream/listen to music?

 

[Cote Dazur]

I wonder if anyone else here has a similar reaction to their choice when to stream/listen to music?

Not the subject of this thread, but I wanted to say that I have a similar reaction, to streaming and long before that to radio, listening in back ground in general. I love listening to music, but I prefer silence to background music. When I listen to music, I prefer to do just that.
I very much agree with your stance about the fundamentalist that pollute so many threads about vinyl and liking listening to vinyl.
Like many here, I like the vinyl medium, but not only, I also enjoy the digital medium and I don't mind if someone dropped playing with toys to listen to squashed hockey pucks 30 years ago to dedicate all their listening time to a digital medium, I say good for them, as long as they do what makes them happy.
I will differ on the fundamentalist image though, to me, the image for those people constantly dissing at vinyl is more like this:

 

[krabapple]

I would contend digital has been a disappointment in many ways. When people throw around figures like 60dB vs 110db which is 10,000,000% better they expect to hear a big difference but because of recording quality and human hearing limitations the reality is 60dB vs 110dB is subtle at best. When you combine the other unintended consequences of digital such as CD's padded with "filler songs" in order to fill up 72 minutes and the loudness wars and the resulting terrible sound quality it has not really been as much of a sound quality improvement as I had hoped for. The one area that digital shines is that it is cheap to produce, store, and playback so that has been a win especially for music producers and distributors.... for the average recorded music enthusiast after sound quality no so much.

This is mishmash of several things, none of which can be blamed on 'digital' per se . 72 minute CD seems an easy fix...just don't play the tracks you consider 'padding'. (Though you may change your mind later) Extreme loudness mastering is a choice *enabled* by digital tech but certainly not inherent to it.

So it's not 'digital' per se that is the disappointment. Digital is f*ing awesome, ask any classical or jazz recording engineer. It is specifically practices that producers of *popular music* have employed that have failed to exploit the full benefits of digital. (Had these been available to purely analog tech, you can be sure they'd have been used there -- certainly compression and limiting were.)

And btw, I would wager 99.99% of listeners would not enjoy a full DR recording with content including the quietest and loudest that digital can offer. In a normally ambient listening situation they would inevitably end up turning it up to hear the quietest bits and consequently get their ears fried by the loudest.


s

 

[krabapple]

In the meantime: BBC: Vinyl records outsell CDs for first time in decades

I'm also tired to hear it's a fad. The return of vinyl started over 15 years ago and is still growing, also with youngsters. While cd is fading out and digital is seen as less engaging by many.

What a tiny world you are viewing.

In the wider world, CDs faded not primarily because vinyl is rising, but because some years back now, a consumer delivery method for digital audio free of physical media became available to a generation weaned on the internet. And it specifically opened an abyss under sales of the most popular delivery medium up to that time: CDs.

Vinyl outsold CDs finally after decades because after decades, both are now small niche markets. The stakes are so much lower down there. Meanwhile, streaming audio rules. Vinyl will never be as popular again as CD was at its height, and certainly won't come anywhere near streaming sales.

 

[DSJR]

I played a CD today ..... and thoroughly enjoyed it as the particular album (which shall be nameless) hadn't been heard in many a long year.

I have hundreds of vinyl LP's and a couple of hundred 12" singles, the latter unplayed in twenty years as are most of the LP's too. if I got rid of them, initially i wouldn' tmiss them at all (many favourite 12" mixes are now on Youtube ans 'sound fine' to me), but sometime in the near future, I'd want to trawl though and play something and then kick myself for getting rid -

- I did this with original plum label Led Zep III and IV. Sure, the digital releases sound MUCH better to me, but the sleeves and artwork (my III copy had the spinning insert) were something else on first release and also the memories of how and when I got them, th eformer from a school-pal and th elatter on a rare trip to HMV in London's Oxford Street where the rock dept had a lovely sounding and then 'proper HiFi' stereo system (Thorens 150/Ortofon M15E I recall, Quad 33/303 and B&W DM1's I think, but it could have been DM3's. I went looking for said records last year and it seems both have gone the way of many albums I let go when we moved here (I know where they are and the chap who has a huge vinyl collection and who got the rest to me here, got them for a bloody bargain price as many were original late 60's pressings and mint).

Far more than the sound quality for oldies like me...

 

[MattHooper]

What a tiny world you are viewing.

In the wider world, CDs faded not because primarily because vinyl is rising, but because some years back now, a consumer delivery method for digital audio free of physical media became available to a generation weaned on the internet. And it specifically opened an abyss under sales of the most popular delivery medium up to that time: CDs.

Vinyl outsold CDs finally after decades because after decades, both are now small niche markets. The stakes are so much lower down there. Meanwhile, streaming audio rules. Vinyl will never be as popular again as CD was at its height, and certainly won't come anywhere near streaming sales.

Nothing Waxx said was false, and it seems most reasonable to presume Waxx is fully aware of the popularity of streaming, and so his comment was made within that context.

It's also misleading to simply state vinyl outsold CDs because streaming made CDs less relevant or appealing as a delivery method. That wouldn't explain why vinyl sales have continued to surge and surpass CDs and take the lions share of the physical market. The explanation for that surge lies in, among other things, just what Waxx referenced: a building enthusiasm that now involves many young people, and the fact that it turns out vinyl seems to fulfill desires for many of these people that they aren't getting from just streaming music.

 

[egellings]

This is mishmash of several things, none of which can be blamed on 'digital' per se . 72 minute CD seems an easy fix...just don't play the tracks you consider 'padding'. (Though you may change your mind later) Extreme loudness mastering is a choice *enabled* by digital tech but certainly not inherent to it.

So it's not 'digital' per se that is the disappointment. Digital is f*ing awesome, ask any classical or jazz recording engineer. It is specifically practices that producers of *popular music* have employed that have failed to exploit the full benefits of digital. (Had these been available to purely analog tech, you can be sure they'd have been used there -- certainly compression and limiting were.)

And btw, I would wager 99.99% of listeners would not enjoy a full DR recording with content including the quietest and loudest that digital can offer. In a normally ambient listening situation they would inevitably end up turning it up to hear the quietest bits and consequently get their ears fried by the loudest.


s

You need 3 asterisks in your birdie substitute. I enjoy both vinyl & digital, and digital is hands down better in specification, but vinyl has that special sound quality that I like.

 

[levimax]

This is mishmash of several things, none of which can be blamed on 'digital' per se . 72 minute CD seems an easy fix...just don't play the tracks you consider 'padding'. (Though you may change your mind later) Extreme loudness mastering is a choice *enabled* by digital tech but certainly not inherent to it.

So it's not 'digital' per se that is the disappointment. Digital is f*ing awesome, ask any classical or jazz recording engineer. It is specifically practices that producers of *popular music* have employed that have failed to exploit the full benefits of digital. (Had these been available to purely analog tech, you can be sure they'd have been used there -- certainly compression and limiting were.)

And btw, I would wager 99.99% of listeners would not enjoy a full DR recording with content including the quietest and loudest that digital can offer. In a normally ambient listening situation they would inevitably end up turning it up to hear the quietest bits and consequently get their ears fried by the loudest.


s

No doubt digital is great and people have abused it. I also agree for classical you can't beat digital. On the other hand it has been abused so much for a lot of popular music that outside of cost you would be hard pressed to say that it has improved much of anything and may be a regression.

I notice when people talk about compression of digital music they often say "yea but popular music in analog was compressed too" which is true but only to a degree. I have a lot of older jazz, rock, and popular records from the late fifties on. If you check the DR (sorry Mr. Neuman I could use LUFS as well) of most of these older popular recordings they range from about DR 11 to DR 15. Of course that is compressed and it would sound weird if it was not compressed. However starting in the 1990's with look ahead limiters and the like popular music now ranges from DR 3 to DR 7 for the most part. This is a huge difference and for me ruins the sound. When I listen to Adele 30 with DR of 4 to 5 it sounds clear and clean but punishingly loud. I can put on a scratchy old 1950's Dinah Washington LP and despite it extreme shortcomings sounds better to me.

I am firmly in the Streaming, Digital physical Media, and LP camp. The more formats I can play the better, there is no downside that I can see to having more choices and more perspective.

 

[posvibes]

It may not be a fad, but it may be a fashion movement, a reactionary retro movement by predominately young middle class people as in the same craze for danish furniture of the 60's and 1970's was the thing a couple of years ago.

Given the economic times and the cost of living pressures especially on the young, the pressure of finding much less affording rental properties etc I wonder how much of that vinyl revival is being listened to on the type of picnic spinners I began my teenage years listening to.

Despite the low-fi I began with and took a long long time to move away from I can't think of a more enjoyable time I have had since then listening to the music.

I guess what I am saying is I can imagine that fidelity of any degree is not the first priority of the majority of the listeners of the vinyl revival because the associated equipment necessary is unaffordable for the many in terms of the discussion taking place here on this forum.

Hence my earlier post of the IKEA turntable, I don't doubt that IKEA is more in tune and better informed of the demographic than we are.

Just a thought.