The REAL Problem of March Audio's Sointuva WG (Review, Measurements and Reinforcements with Klippel device)

[n1rvana]

Maybe like Fox Mulder… “I want to believe.”

What is it exactly you want to believe?

I think we get it. You don't believe the reviewer despite the preponderance of evidence presented by Nuyes. And that is fine. Is there anything more you would like to add?

I don't find it necessary to convince you nor do I understand your insistence on wanting to be convinced.

 

[restorer-john]

I consider a person truthful and believable until they prove otherwise. That's how I want to be treated, and that's how I treat other people.

You are very wise Jim.

 

[Holmz]

It's hard to believe anons over the sea. But in S.Korea we who sent drivers and speakers all know each others name where they work, live, phone number, etc...

The wiring is completely different in two pictures

If Nuy removed the long clear wire and replaced it with short red one and tubed it, for who and why?

He doesn't have time for all that(I have BTW, haha).

^That^ is good to hear.
So I assume that you know and trust him saying he did not disassemble them?

What possible motivation would he have to go through this length to document problems?

You mean hypothetically?
- Maybe simple curiousity at the beginning and then to save face.

I do not know what motivations he has, only that it is possible that people have a variety of motivations.
But I am not a psychologist nor a social engineer.

On the other hand I have seen March do everything in his power to hide things.

I am not doubting you. I have not been on the forum that long.

But I am not looking at the speakers because he is a nice guy.
- I would just go to Paul, or others, for their speakers.

What is it exactly you want to believe?

I think we get it. You don't believe the reviewer despite the preponderance of evidence presented by Nuyes. And that is fine. Is there anything more you would like to add?

I don't find it necessary to convince you nor do I understand your insistence on wanting to be convinced.

I thought that I mentioned that I was/am still heavily leaning towards getting a pair of the speakers.
Here you go:

And I would probably not be concerned if I have/had not been thinking long and hard about getting a set.

Hence the question as to whether I am the only one (or maybe three) that are not convinced.
(Of course we can discount Alan’s opinion as he has a vested interest.)

I would like to know that the issues are in fact problematic.
And for the issues that are problematic, then whether MA is addressing them.

I consider a person truthful and believable until they prove otherwise. That's how I want to be treated, and that's how I treat other people.

That is a good practice.

Using that as a criterion, Alan "proved otherwise" long ago and many times since. Jim

Thanks - I’ll try and puruse the older threads.
Did you end up getting any of his products? - or is it truthfulness stuff that is in the threads?

There are many that peddle gear with wild eyed believablity, and they appear like they are being truthful… At least I believe that they believe it.
For instance, take the grounding systems, and half of the IC/Cable people, and the power conditioner people.

Most of the better engineers I work with seem to have a lot more skill in engineering, than on the personal side of things.
(Maybe not enough space for both)

And at least the speaker sounds, and tests, good some of the time. Which is my main “driver” for evaluating whether to consider getting it.
I want a speaker to perform well, sound good, last, and be covered under some warranty.

I was basically looking at these because I was thinking of a DIY set using the Purifi, but a combo of:

• Too lazy
• Time poor
• Fearful of all the pitfalls
• cannot afford way more expensive speakers

It is sounding like the group consensus is that the problems are real, insurmountable, and to just avoid them.

 

[SDC]

So I assume that you know and trust him saying he did not disassemble them?

Yes, IME he is very kind and diligent on all his work.

I followed the Korean audio site so I know the timeline of how things went, and bit more about the actual owner of this Sointuva(he don't want to bother himself with this finished work). And mails, posts opened to the site.

Not accusing anybody, it could be shipping problem and so on, but the commentary on Nuy touching and manipulating result is just not true.

He even showed how one can manipulate data on purpose and how to think twice before believing any measurements. Much before this WG incident.

 

[amirm]

And at least the speaker sounds, and tests, good some of the time. Which is my main “driver” for evaluating whether to consider getting it.
I want a speaker to perform well, sound good, last, and be covered under some warranty.

The last part should worry you. Getting the company to accept any fault with the speaker will be extremely hard if not impossible. If the reviewer could not using all of his measurements and data points, what hope would you have? Take your worries online and he will start to make all kinds of accusations about you -- true or not. In his thread on this, he says I listen to all the speakers in my garage! That is the person you are dealing with.

 

[PierreV]

It is sounding like the group consensus is that the problems are real, insurmountable, and to just avoid them.

It is a storm in a teacup driven, to a large extent, by the capital of (imho deserved) antipathy Alan has amassed over time around here. In terms of speakers, you could do worse, at least when they are properly assembled. IMHO, what we are seeing here is more likely to be the result of poor manufacturing or lack of actual QC by a small-scale assembler. I would assume, given the high visibility of this site and thread, that if other people had similar extremely poor build quality issues, we would have heard more horror stories. Whether you want or don't want to reward poor behavior is another issue I guess. Poor QC seems to hit audio stuff manufacturers more often than it should, unfortunate but not as bad as snake oil in my book.

 

[tmtomh]

Have you read this thread, looked at the pics and measurements, seen how the customer and reviewer were treated?
Have you seen how March behaved and still behaves on this forum with puppet accounts?
You stll think he is legit?

Of course I've read the thread. Of course I think he's legit - he sells legit products, including good amps. I don't think he's behaved well in some important respects, but there's plenty of that to go around. What mystifies me is the folks in this thread who think that the evidence (words, photos, measurements) paints a simple and one-sided picture of who has made errors and who has not.

The degree to which some folks here appear to be blind to their own biases in how they interpret the evidence, is just astounding to me.

To be clear, I would not buy these speakers from March, and I would (and did) buy a Purifi amp from someone else other than March too. I do not have as low of an opinion of him as many here seem to, but it's still past the point where I would want to buy from him - which is something I can also say of a number of other vendors, for various reasons.

My objections here are not about defending Alan against any and all critiques - he's certainly earned the criticisms in some respects. I'm objecting to what I see as hyper-simplistic, overarching, black-and-white interpretations of what I believe is a rather more complex situation. Folks should of course feel free to ignore my objection - but if they don't ignore it and decide to respond, then I'm going to respond in kind.

 

[Doodski]

Of course I've read the thread. Of course I think he's legit - he sells legit products, including good amps. I don't think he's behaved well in some important respects, but there's plenty of that to go around. What mystifies me is the folks in this thread who think that the evidence (words, photos, measurements) paints a simple and one-sided picture of who has made errors and who has not.

The degree to which some folks here appear to be blind to their own biases in how they interpret the evidence, is just astounding to me.

It has become a berating and into the wind pissing match. It appears poorly.

 

[YSC]

Of course I've read the thread. Of course I think he's legit - he sells legit products, including good amps. I don't think he's behaved well in some important respects, but there's plenty of that to go around. What mystifies me is the folks in this thread who think that the evidence (words, photos, measurements) paints a simple and one-sided picture of who has made errors and who has not.

The degree to which some folks here appear to be blind to their own biases in how they interpret the evidence, is just astounding to me.

To be clear, I would not buy these speakers from March, and I would (and did) buy a Purifi amp from someone else other than March too. I do not have as low of an opinion of him as many here seem to, but it's still past the point where I would want to buy from him - which is something I can also say of a number of other vendors, for various reasons.

My objections here are not about defending Alan against any and all critiques - he's certainly earned the criticisms in some respects. I'm objecting to what I see as hyper-simplistic, overarching, black-and-white interpretations of what I believe is a rather more complex situation. Folks should of course feel free to ignore my objection - but if they don't ignore it and decide to respond, then I'm going to respond in kind.

I just wonder why it must be someone completely making false claims and the other one pure victim.. the original post from Nyues looks very well documented so it hints some kind of fault in the speaker, where the sealing is a clear fault.

with the distortion or stuffing I read those like any modding videos in the web. It maybe true or maybe not, where if I am the owner I would not tinker it to that much personally.

Now the real problem is on how much confidence could March Audio customers can have. When his first instinct is to defend to no end that all his products are perfect and nothing could be wrong is what troubles me of potentially paying my hard earned money in.

I can’t tell whether Nyues or Alan have did something they claimed they don’t (mess around before measurement and falsely accusing Alan, or secretly fix the design and record those as proof that Nyues have tinkered and ruined the speaker before review), there’s possibility that both have something wrong as always in the real world, but with suspicion on both I would say it did way more harm to Alan’s image, a reviewer being dishonest or some unlucky shipping problem isn’t a big deal, a good product is always good.

But a vendor with products he didn’t really accept anything less than not arguable like the sealing is a big no to me regardless of how good the product if it’s in perfect condition. I can never guarantee my warranty will be honoured if I discovered something wrong, which I am sure I can’t supply any proof near the ones of the OP

The compensation to the customer in this case even makes me more troubling. He compensated for him to self fix is nice, BUT at the same time he didn’t mention to customer what the magical torque value he need to apply to not ruin the magical speaker as Nyues did! So the answer IMO is either

1) the torque value doesn’t matter and it’s pure BS to push liability to the reviewer

2) his solution didn’t really make the customers speaker back to how it should perform

 

[concorde1]

Maybe someone else who already has a Sointuva made prior to this event could submit them for testing to Erin or Amir?

 

[Nuyes]

^That^ is good to hear.
So I assume that you know and trust him saying he did not disassemble them?




You mean hypothetically?
- Maybe simple curiousity at the beginning and then to save face.

I do not know what motivations he has, only that it is possible that people have a variety of motivations.
But I am not a psychologist nor a social engineer.




I am not doubting you. I have not been on the forum that long.

But I am not looking at the speakers because he is a nice guy.
- I would just go to Paul, or others, for their speakers.




I thought that I mentioned that I was/am still heavily leaning towards getting a pair of the speakers.
Here you go:


Hence the question as to whether I am the only one (or maybe three) that are not convinced.
(Of course we can discount Alan’s opinion as he has a vested interest.)

I would like to know that the issues are in fact problematic.
And for the issues that are problematic, then whether MA is addressing them.



That is a good practice.


Thanks - I’ll try and puruse the older threads.
Did you end up getting any of his products? - or is it truthfulness stuff that is in the threads?

There are many that peddle gear with wild eyed believablity, and they appear like they are being truthful… At least I believe that they believe it.
For instance, take the grounding systems, and half of the IC/Cable people, and the power conditioner people.

Most of the better engineers I work with seem to have a lot more skill in engineering, than on the personal side of things.
(Maybe not enough space for both)

And at least the speaker sounds, and tests, good some of the time. Which is my main “driver” for evaluating whether to consider getting it.
I want a speaker to perform well, sound good, last, and be covered under some warranty.

I was basically looking at these because I was thinking of a DIY set using the Purifi, but a combo of:

• Too lazy
• Time poor
• Fearful of all the pitfalls
• cannot afford way more expensive speakers

It is sounding like the group consensus is that the problems are real, insurmountable, and to just avoid them.

I understand what you're saying.
As for the "LIAR," no one will ever know the truth except for Anal(this is clearly my fault.) Alan and me.

This is because there are no CCTVs in each other's spaces where police can search.

So, let's just talk about objective facts.

As a manufacturer, he may disclose:

1. Recommended torque values (must be for all consumers in the past and in the future)

2.Individual measurement data of Pointuva WGs.

He can simply close this case by disclosing the above.
(I very much agree with the idea of excluding personal feelings.))


And there's also a clear objective fact.
The white speaker he unveiled is not exactly the same product as the existing one.

If I had maliciously replaced the cable (short and red) and removed the sound absorbing material at the bottom of the woofer driver, the speaker's maker would have known this from the beginning.
And if he did, he would immediately have a powerful opportunity to contradict me.




I know that there are many things that I can't objectively prove.

But it is true that I also have objective evidence.


What does Alan have?
He has to reveal his cards.

 

[Doodski]

I understand what you're saying.
As for the "LIAR," no one will ever know the truth except for Anal and me.

This is because there are no CCTVs in each other's spaces where police can search.

So, let's just talk about objective facts.

As a manufacturer, he may disclose:

1. Recommended torque values (must be for all consumers in the past and in the future)

2.Individual measurement data of Pointuva WGs.

He can simply close this case by disclosing the above.
(I very much agree with the idea of excluding personal feelings.))


And there's also a clear objective fact.
The white speaker he unveiled is not exactly the same product as the existing one.

If I had maliciously replaced the cable (short and red) and removed the sound absorbing material at the bottom of the woofer driver, the speaker's maker would have known this from the beginning.
And if he did, he would immediately have a powerful opportunity to contradict me.




I know that there are many things that I can't objectively prove.

But it is true that I also have objective evidence.


What does Alan have?
He has to reveal his cards.

This is approaching a berating level of commentary. The same stuff repeated again and again with a apparent assumption of anticipating some sort of response. sigh*

 

[Newman]

Sorry, who are you accusing of berating who? Your post can be read more than one way.

 

[Doodski]

Sorry, who are you accusing of berating who? Your post can be read more than one way.

I meant both Alan @ March Audio and the Korean tester operating the Klippel system when testing these speakers in question. They have both reached a stalemate and it seems they are simply offering the same repetitive information/berating each other expecting a answer when that is apparently not forthcoming.

 

[thorvat]

As for the "LIAR," no one will ever know the truth except for Anal and me.

If we ever decide to have a typo contest here on ASR I believe this one would fight for the win, so it would be a pity if we let it go unnoticed!

 

[restorer-john]

As for the "LIAR," no one will ever know the truth except for Anal and me.

Quoted for prosperity. As @thorvat said, we have a winner!

 

[Doodski]

Quoted for prosperity. As @thorvat said, we have a winner!

People and what I hope is the cel tel using autocorrect for spelling errors.

 

[Sokel]

People and what I hope is the cel tel using autocorrect for spelling errors.

I just tried "melf" resistors

 

[Doodski]

I just tried "melf" resistors

I assume you where hoping for, "Milf resisters."

 

[Nuyes]

I'm sorry for contaminating the thread.

I don't want to continue the truth battle.
This is not going to be solved anyway, and it's wasteful.
And every member has the right to interpret and believe in their own way.

I will not comment further on the issue of personal conscience that cannot be identified.

I would very much like members to discuss this product.

I can only hope that Alan can restore confidence in his existing customers and prospects by revealing the truth about binding posts and torque values.

I'm sorry to the members.
I swear I won't make any personal criticism in the future.