The Good Forum

[Mivera]

What about us sobjectivists?

Well one thing I can say about the subjectivists, at least they aren't afraid to use the tools that they do have. If high end audio isn't about how things sound, then it's a joke if you ask me. Buy a Bose wave radio and call it a day.

 

[Thomas savage]

More robots online than humans... It's all getting skynet in here.

 

[Mivera]

Hey AJ has you down as pseudo-subjectivist going by that lol

I just think of you as Mike, the blond manikin lover.

I think of myself as non of these things. Just a aging guy that don't get out much.

You obvoiusly never met my wife. She would beat you up for calling her a mannequin. She works out for 2 hours everyday. She also has a masters degree and can fluently speak 7 languages. So not stupid either.

 

[Thomas savage]

You obvoiusly never met my wife. She would beat you up for calling her a mannequin. She works out for 2 hours everyday. She also has a masters degree and can fluently speak 7 languages. So not stupid either.

Hey not talking about the wife, just your pictures of your ' ideal' model types in bikinis.

 

[Mivera]

Hey not talking about the wife, just your pictures of your ' ideal' model types in bikinis.

They were just random pictures from a google image search. But I knew how much you liked her the first time around so I thought I would give you another one

 

[Thomas savage]

They were just random pictures from a google image search. But I knew how much you liked her the first time around so I thought I would give you another one

Not my thing, I like brains and independent spirit plus more... Woman. I would break your model types.

My GF only speakers 4 languages and is studying for masters, she thinks I am super bright so must have something wrong with her. I Try not to leave her with enough spare energy to work out 2 hours a day plus she has a full on job at senior management level. She's been drinking champagne all over Europe as part of her masters... Nice! And her work pays for it all... Double nice.

If I walk onto university canvas they call security

 

[SoundAndMotion]

Thomas, I appreciate your input.

Well if your famous then it's a issue other wise I don't see the problem. If you identity will restrict you honesty somehow then fair enough maybe a conflict with you professionally?

LOL. No, although I’m well known in my sub-sub-field, I’m not in any way famous. My problem is the very intense responses some people on some audio forums display. One of ASR’s members is routinely threatened on another forum, that he will be reported for his bad behaviour to his employer (he’s playful, teasing and sarcastic, but no bad behaviour IMO). Since he is at a university, I’d guess that they would laugh it off, at least I’m sure my previous employers would. But now I work in industry (not audio) and there is quite some sensitivity to reputation. I truly doubt any ASR member would do such a thing, but there are non-members and lurkers, who… who knows. Also, some of the exchanges on rec.audio.opinion in the 90’s are truly pathological… just about audio! I doubt such people are members here, but where are they now? I know I sound paranoid, but I have a family and my decision may not be permanent. I just prefer anonymity now.

Some credentials, background and then you could leave the rest to time. That's the slow way. You have to earn the respect of others I guess especially when they are of similar knowledgeable standing claimed or other wise.

Understood. And I know for certain that many here have vastly more knowledge that I do in a variety of areas. So, we’ll see if the pace is too slow. If so, no problem, I don’t need to participate. I already see that according to some my bad behaviour in this forum is due my anonymity. I can only hope to have the great behaviour of the person who claims this.
So a start: I have a PhD, but I’m not a professor. I currently work on multi-sensory perceptual modeling, backed up by my experiments. The last seven have used classic psychophysical methods. Before that I used physiological experiments to back up modeling of neural sub-systems. If you find this made up or implausible, you’re right: I’m really a socially awkward 14 year old shut-in, typing away in my mom’s basement, and really good at googling.

If the focus should just be stereos and music production/reproduction, and contributions on the science of auditory perception are unwelcome, I’ll stop.

Also note my responses are sporadic and sometimes quite sparse. Sorry, I travel a lot, have a family and have other hobbies too, like flying (just got my PPL), biking with my son, and discussing politics with friends.

Cheers, SAM

 

[Thomas savage]

Thomas, I appreciate your input.


LOL. No, although I’m well known in my sub-sub-field, I’m not in any way famous. My problem is the very intense responses some people on some audio forums display. One of ASR’s members is routinely threatened on another forum, that he will be reported for his bad behaviour to his employer (he’s playful, teasing and sarcastic, but no bad behaviour IMO). Since he is at a university, I’d guess that they would laugh it off, at least I’m sure my previous employers would. But now I work in industry (not audio) and there is quite some sensitivity to reputation. I truly doubt any ASR member would do such a thing, but there are non-members and lurkers, who… who knows. Also, some of the exchanges on rec.audio.opinion in the 90’s are truly pathological… just about audio! I doubt such people are members here, but where are they now? I know I sound paranoid, but I have a family and my decision may not be permanent. I just prefer anonymity now.

Understood. And I know for certain that many here have vastly more knowledge that I do in a variety of areas. So, we’ll see if the pace is too slow. If so, no problem, I don’t need to participate. I already see that according to some my bad behaviour in this forum is due my anonymity. I can only hope to have the great behaviour of the person who claims this.
So a start: I have a PhD, but I’m not a professor. I currently work on multi-sensory perceptual modeling, backed up by my experiments. The last seven have used classic psychophysical methods. Before that I used physiological experiments to back up modeling of neural sub-systems. If you find this made up or implausible, you’re right: I’m really a socially awkward 14 year old shut-in, typing away in my mom’s basement, and really good at googling.

If the focus should just be stereos and music production/reproduction, and contributions on the science of auditory perception are unwelcome, I’ll stop.

Also note my responses are sporadic and sometimes quite sparse. Sorry, I travel a lot, have a family and have other hobbies too, like flying (just got my PPL), biking with my son, and discussing politics with friends.

Cheers, SAM

That's ok we can't all be young socially maladjusted guys who spend way too much time in doors...or indeed middle aged men with serious testosterone drop off issues that used to be young socially maladjusted guys who spent way too much time in doors.

We want science, fun and amusement.

 

[amirm]

Anonymity. Most folks would never say/act that way if they went by their real names, real pics and were easily accessible in public, like audio shows where thousands attend.

I have counter examples of this here and elsewhere. I have pointed out that their comments online could reflect poorly on them in person but they are oblivious to that. You are a prime example of this AJ .

 

[Thomas savage]

I have counter examples of this here and elsewhere. I have pointed out that their comments online could reflect poorly on them in person but they are oblivious to that. You are a prime example of this AJ .

Funny in the videos AJ is kind of sheepish and reserved... Shy even, wow we are getting the alter ego I guess.

 

[Mivera]

I have counter examples of this here and elsewhere. I have pointed out that their comments online could reflect poorly on them in person but they are oblivious to that. You are a prime example of this AJ .

But AJ's target audience are DJ's at strip clubs. they are too high on meth to follow what's going on in the forum world

 

[amirm]

Funny in the videos AJ is kind of sheepish and reserved... Shy even, wow we are getting the alter ego I guess.

He has mellowed out some faced with selling his speakers to the same people he curses online . A dichotomy that I mentioned to him when I heard he was going into business. As you, I almost don't recognize him in those videos relative to how he interacts in forums.

 

[Thomas savage]

He has mellowed out some faced with selling his speakers to the same people he curses online . A dichotomy that I mentioned to him when I heard he was going into business. As you, I almost don't recognize him in those videos relative to how he interacts in forums.

I like his forum persona better I just know he is laughing out loud at how stupid he thinks we all are... Good for him! I spent 3 months laughing my arse off over at WBF. Bit of self congratulating mockery is good for the soul.

 

[DonH56]

An old, old WBF post of mine, strictly for fun!

People like to help each other, and do not like it when their help is questioned. Beliefs enter into it, people get riled, conversation degenerates.

Example:

A: I just added a new Pet Rock to my system, the imaging is better, a veil was lifted, bass is better, you have to get one of these!
B. I do not see how a pet rock can do any of that. Have you measured the system?
A: Why would I care about measurements? I can hear it!
B. There's no way a pet rock can do that. Without measurements, you have no proof.
A: What do you mean "no proof"? Didn't I just say I can hear a difference?
B: That is not proof. You need to run a controlled test, have somebody place and remove the pet rock several times and see if you can tell when it is there.
A: I don't need some test, I can tell it works! And I just had my friend over and he heard it too so there!
B: That's ridiculous you are both nuts. I'm just trying to save you money.
A: OK, I found an article by the Pet Rock Sound chief engineer. I don't understand it, but he says it aligns the molecular flow of the universe inside my room and that's why it works.
B: Sounds like marketing. What measurements did they take?
A: There's a graph, it shows ripples in the force without the Pet Rock that are gone when it is added. Happy now?
B: No, that is meaningless. You are all mad.
A: Well, prove it! Measure the molecular flow with and without a Pet Rock and see the difference! Then you can see and show us all why it works.
B: That is nuts and I don't have anything like that kind of equipment.
A: Then you can't prove it doesn't work! You're a geek with no ears!
B: You have so much expectation bias it is running out of your ears. No wonder you think you hear something.
A; Snooty objectivist scumbag.
B: Ignorant gullible subjectivist.
<Thread closed>

THIS IS ONLY AN EXAMPLE! No relation to any actual people, audio systems, or Pet Rocks is implied. No Pet Rocks were harmed in the making of this post.

 

[amirm]

So what can be done? It seems most suggestions I've read include some sort of homogeneity rules: we don't want any of THOSE people here. THEY are disruptive and love to argue in circles. Exclude THEM and we can have a good forum. I have to admit that there are few or no racial problems in whites-only clubs, very little or no sexual harassment in men-only groups, but I like the diversity of hearing both subjectivist and objectivist ideas, stories, comments, AS LONG AS THEY ARE CIVIL. Yes, I would like homogenous, in terms of civility.

Before joining ASR, another member and I lamented that we were frustrated that audio forums are so contentious, and filled with people ready to fight. We want to find a forum that was "dominated by somewhat-knowledgable, open-minded skeptics. A mixture of subj/obj, but with humility and curiosity and fun being the dominant traits"
We both independently joined ASR, hoping....

What are your thoughts?

p.s. I hope Blumlein88 returns and everyone who can discuss this hobby civilly stays.

Coming in late on this thread . First thanks for giving ASR a chance to be the "good forum."

I personally consider it a failure if we don't have large number of subjectivists here. It would mean that we have created a situation that is unbearable to them. Questions need to be asked. Challenges need to be presented. We better be able to explain things we believe in, rather than demanding compliance.

We also share so much love of music with subjectivists. That alone would be worth it to have them here.

Yes, there is a compass here that guides us toward science and I guess by that definition, "objectivity." That is there to settle never ending battles and make sure that the forum is information rich. It does not by any means mean it should exclude people in the other camp of audio.

Above all, I like us to have fun. Any notion of pushing the other camp goes against that.

If we think it is good to be an objectivist, then we better show that we are the best of that breed that can be. Otherwise, why would anyone want to convert to our religion???

 

[Purité Audio]

I like your example but I think you should add,
' but I have had the most expensive rocks known to mankind, one you have heard the most expensive rocks then you will agree with me'.
Keith

 

[Thomas savage]

Don't forget, you can't hear it because your rocks are not transparent enough ( translation expensive enough like Keith said) .

 

[SoundAndMotion]

The thread moved faster than I could keep up and I missed a few posts reading on the train. I just saw this post:

Also if you have ideas about who you want to stay you are by default insinuating there are members here you would like to see the back of.. A little passive aggressive in my view and some what bold to say the least given you only just got here!

These kinds of introspective threads are always a sign of things not going well. They never solve anything and only cause further division.

and I wanted to comment.

We all just got here! And this forum was created because of the mess at the other forum. Many posts and threads here are naturally introspective! to try and create a viable and vital forum. Interesting that the main complaint is unpleasant bickering, yet some bicker with my attempt (perhaps feeble) to correct that. Many here before me have given their views on what topics, types of posts and members should be excluded.

I gave my views and interestingly, they seem compatible enough with Amir's views. Many posts in this thread (and others) state clearly that some members want a forum that seems incompatible with Amir's goals.

Since I don't often see subjectivists or objectivists changing their "affiliation", but I do often see people change their behaviour based on context or situation, I can easily, honestly say I don't want to see the back of anyone's head if they can be civil here, and that would include everyone. Everyone can be civil, but will they. or do they even want to.

I believe this sounds like crazy-talk to some people here, and I don't want to create further division, so if that's what I'm doing, I should leave. Amir may state his goals clearly, but if the whole group disagrees, cool, the message is clear.

 

[Thomas savage]

The thread moved faster than I could keep up and I missed a few posts reading on the train. I just saw this post:

and I wanted to comment.

We all just got here! And this forum was created because of the mess at the other forum. Many posts and threads here are naturally introspective! to try and create a viable and vital forum. Interesting that the main complaint is unpleasant bickering, yet some bicker with my attempt (perhaps feeble) to correct that. Many here before me have given their views on what topics, types of posts and members should be excluded.

I gave my views and interestingly, they seem compatible enough with Amir's views. Many posts in this thread (and others) state clearly that some members want a forum that seems incompatible with Amir's goals.

Since I don't often see subjectivists or objectivists changing their "affiliation", but I do often see people change their behaviour based on context or situation, I can easily, honestly say I don't want to see the back of anyone's head if they can be civil here, and that would include everyone. Everyone can be civil, but will they. or do they even want to.

I believe this sounds like crazy-talk to some people here, and I don't want to create further division, so if that's what I'm doing, I should leave. Amir may state his goals clearly, but if the whole group disagrees, cool, the message is clear.

The thread worked out ok, so not to worry. Robust is ok by me, we don't need thinly veiled digs so I prefer the upfront direct posting even if they may to some seem uncivilised.

I think we are all on board with amir, some times we will let ourselves down. Room can be made for all folks as long as they contribute on some level.

I personally don't spend time thinking about who should or should not be here. Currently all seem to contribute on some level regardless of perceived civility.

More reasoned, measurments based and scientifically aspiring posts and debate would be nice.

Who wants a forum incompatible with amirs view? Not sure who your referring to with that.

 

[AJ Soundfield]

Funny in the videos AJ is kind of sheepish and reserved

Hey I never claimed Clooney was a perfect actor.