The Good Forum

[Thomas savage]

See we all agree, even the subjective lead guy ' me' though this was never the issue here as I stated in my opening post.

It's the amature / professional divide that's causing issues. Too many guys used to only debating within them selfs. It's a language barrier really, you guys are from different worlds to one another and a few here are on another planet altogether

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Absolutely, this is an audio science forum. ...with sections for photography and fun and music. All good.
I also agree I was sloppy to include an "I saw it, so it's real" example. There should not be the equivalent "I heard it, so it's real" without foundation. But the criteria for what constitutes a strong enough foundation to discuss some of the associated science is quite different for many objectivists and what is found in scientific journals. Have there been many cases of "I heard it, so it's real" in this forum. I don't mean quoted from elsewhere; I mean here. I have seen "how can you be sure about the science" challenges and "how would one measure that" queries. But I take them as parts of the discussion of audio science. Those are certainly topics discussed by audio scientists.

I find it sad that you label my anti-homogeneity point as politically correct. I suppose no Trump voters (not that I assume you like Trump) will like my thread.

The "I've heard it so it's real" argument takes many forms, and there have been many examples of it on this forum.

Tim

 

[Thomas savage]

I agree with every word.
My problem is when a subjectivist does intend to bring up a "point of investigation rather that a statement of fact or truth" but is considered a subjectivist, he is often dismissed because he's a "subjectivist" NOT because of what he wrote.

Don't worry about the subjectivist there is only me and mike, neither of us need defending so just get on with the reasoned debate.. Reason being the pertenant word.

 

[SoundAndMotion]

It's the amature / professional divide that's causing issues.

Here I disagree. It's a humility issue. Most, but not all, of the most brilliant people I know, quite secure in their knowledge, are quite humble. I talk about my work to colleages, post-docs, grad and undergrad students and kids. At times I'm challenged by all of them that I'm saying something wrong and I don't have a problem with it and I politely discuss.
When someone acts as though they know more about my topic than I do, I politely engage for a short while, then I ask that we continue after the presentation, but that rarely happens.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

The idea of subjectivists and objectivist being a root of the ills of this forum is simply wrong. What you have here is over reaching amatures who have never had to take objections to their ideas seriously and have never been meaningfully challenged but consider them selfs objective and scientific and those who have a stake in the engineering of audio and are coming from more a professional stand point.

Now this is a frustrating mix for both parties, no one gets what they need. We need more engineering science based guys who can support their ideas properly. Engage with their true piers and gain the rewards this will bring them on many levels. This is not happening, not the fault of the forum of course. It's a numbers game.

We have plenty of interesting armatures who are enthusiastic but they need to realise how frustating they can be to deal with from the audio professionals point of view. We are simply dealing with a lack of knowledge, that's ok but certain members don't accept this. They have never had too up till now so are not equipped to either.

This is causing problems, teething problems that will carry on until the balance is restored.

Now the big problem or challenge is how do we get those professional guys here when they really don't won't to be dealing with religious fundamentalist delusional types... They don't want to be arguing the simplist of things, they don't want to fight every post.

For me I don't mind, I don't belong to either group. This is not my job, also I don't use audio as a self identifying tool. I don't need to be seen as being clever either.

For those that do both on the amuture side and professional I would encourage a little perspective and empathy for each other.

We have some great resources here thanks to amir and some of the membership, we also have a wonderfully diverse music section. A little segregated for my liking but I guess that's what folks like so I have embraced it rather than sitting on the side lines bitching about how the forum is not what I want it to be.

Roll up your sleeves and get stuck in, this place owes nobody anything. It's what we make it.

Sounds great. Can I hang around and ask stupid questions?

Tim

 

[SoundAndMotion]

Don't worry about the subjectivist there is only me and mike, neither of us need defending so just get on with the reasoned debate.. Reason being the pertenant word.

I wasn't planning a debate, rather a tutorial. But I guess it may well turn into a debate LOL That's cool.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

I also think some have absolutely no idea / understanding of why their input isn't appropriate.

I agree.

Tim

 

[SoundAndMotion]

Sounds great. Can I hang around and ask stupid questions?

I doubt your questions would be stupid. You should always ask. We're all here to learn and help (I hope). I certainly learn from people here, including from some who are often uncivil (not meaning you!)

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

The only reason to post subjective opinion here imo would be as a point of investigation rather that a statement of fact or truth.

A tool to stimulate investigation nothing else.

Not to sell stuff either! ... Better bring hard facts back by recognised measurments if your going to use this place as a shop window imo.

Best post on the forum.

Tim

 

[Thomas savage]

Here I disagree. It's a humility issue. Most, but not all, of the most brilliant people I know, quite secure in their knowledge, are quite humble. I talk about my work to colleages, post-docs, grad and undergrad students and kids. At times I'm challenged by all of them that I'm saying something wrong and I don't have a problem with it and I politely discuss.
When someone acts as though they know more about my topic than I do, I politely engage for a short while, then I ask that we continue after the presentation, but that rarely happens.

Knowledge is malleable belief tends not to be. This explains plenty imo. Humility is rare, and is often bestowed on the self by the self with little merit.

The internet is a hard one here too as its a barrier and many folks won't accept information from strangers with no established credentials.

That's the bit that's missing from your well reasoned response that in the real world I agree with totally. I have found the same. So that's also why it helps to share your background here and disclose your credentials.

You have put your self on top, as the teacher but I don't know you. No a problem for me as I tend to asses in other ways but for some folk this will irk them. They might find a stranger they don't know making assumptions about their level of understanding... Offensive, then teaching them!? Without their consent or invitation.. Umm, questionable. The good intent, well intentioned as it maybe will count for little.

I have a little exspirence here, I have has issues when establishing my know how and trying to include ' teach' others online. When I have met these same people in the work environment and they see I am not full of crap, they look and learn and are happy to do so. Online different story.

 

[Thomas savage]

Sounds great. Can I hang around and ask stupid questions?

Tim

You just did, so I guess it's ok Tim

 

[SoundAndMotion]

We don't disagree but my wording is missleading.

The internet is a hard one here too as its a barrier and many folks won't accept information from strangers with no established credentials.

That's the bit that's missing from your well reasoned response that in the real world I agree with totally. I have found the same. So that's also why it helps to share your background here and disclose your credentials.

You have put your self on top, as the teacher but I don't know you. No a problem for me as I tend to asses in other ways but for some folk this will irk them. They might find a stranger they don't know making assumptions about their level of understanding... Offensive, then teaching them!? Without their consent or invitation.. Umm, questionable. The good intent, well intentioned as it maybe will count for little.

I have a little exspirence here, I have has issues when establishing my know how and trying to include ' teach' others online. When I have met these same people in the work environment and they see I am not full of crap, they look and learn and are happy to do so. Online different story.

Wow! Great comments. Much appreciated. It was not clear to me why I'm often clumsy on the internet, but get along great, even with rivals from competing labs in real life. Yup!

But that presents me with a catch-22. I've chosen at this point to remain anonymous. So if I present credentials, they could be made up. I see two options, reveal name or remain anonymous and present all info with copious references, so anyone can check them. But I get the problem of the stranger-teacher.

Okay, need to resolve that.
(Wow editing on an iPhone on a moving train is challenging)

 

[Thomas savage]

Wow! Great comments. Much appreciated. It was not clear to me why I'm often clumsy on the internet, but get along great, even with rivals from competing labs in real life. Yup!

But that presents me with a catch-22. I've chosen at this point to remain anonymous. So if I present credentials, they could be made up. I see two options, reveal name or present all info with copious references, so anyone can check them. But I get the problem of the stranger-teacher.

Okay, need to resolve that.

I edited the first bit a little, but you may think of everyone one line as being on the autism spectrum. As we have been robbed of many of the known factors and behaviour indicators we take for granted when communication in the real world. Too many factors to list but a little thought should reveal them so no need for me to list them all.

It's the barrier of the Internet, what it gives in one hand it takes in another.

The devil is also assumption and just how reliant we ALL are on this when interacting with each other both online and in real life.

Well if your famous then it's a issue other wise I don't see the problem. If you identity will restrict you honesty somehow then fair enough maybe a conflict with you professionally?

Some credentials, background and then you could leave the rest to time. That's the slow way. You have to earn the respect of others I guess especially when they are of similar knowledgeable standing claimed or other wise.

Not a problem for me, you seem like a good guy. You just have not thought about the dynamics of this communication medium. I struggle too tbh.

You have the wil to communicate, the will to be understood and are inclusive, wanting to share knowledge. To me this implies humility, your also self questioning and reseptive to challenge. assuming you do have the deep knowladge and understanding you infer I for one am very pleased your here.


Got any friends lol we need more.

 

[AJ Soundfield]

I speculate as to the cause

Anonymity. Most folks would never say/act that way if they went by their real names, real pics and were easily accessible in public, like audio shows where thousands attend.

What are your thoughts?

That the "Audio" title of the forum is really about audio from music systems, including well, music.
Take for example my recent post about Tooles recent article. It's about audio of stereos, etc, in real rooms with music, etc., with relevant measurements and listening tests.
IOW, it's something folks interested in the audio of stereos/music might be interested in.
The opposite of that might be posts talking about talking.
Nothing to do with stereos/music, just talk about talk.
At some point, will you talk about stereo/music?
Just checking.

 

[Mivera]

My thoughts are that all of the above is fair and makes good sense in an audiophile forum, but not in this forum. This forum's purpose is to discus the science of audio, and a constant barrage of subjective arguments against science, from highly prolific posters, will do nothing but bring the forum down or turn it into another subjective audiophile forum. And I'm not sure that isn't the objective for some of them.

Tim

I'm neither an "objectivist" or "subjectivist" Putting yourself in a specific camp is high school level behavior. Well balanced human beings with a broad understanding of reality have open minds to all points of view.

 

[Thomas savage]

I'm neither an "objectivist" or "subjectivist" Putting yourself in a specific camp is high school level behavior. Well balanced human beings with a broad understand of reality have open minds to all points of view.

Within the dynamic of this forum I am seen as subjectivist, the only arguments I see from you tend to be listening based. Sighted too boot so I guess they see you the same way. Not really high school mentality Mike, it's just humans. How we see our selfs is irrelevant in this context.

 

[AJ Soundfield]

I'm neither an "objectivist" or "subjectivist"

Absolutely true. Biggest false dichotomy in audiophilia.
Pseudo-subjectivist is better. These folks make all kinds of subjective claims, with objective spaghetti thrown at the wall for correlation. A "sounds" better than B because of the op-amp/DAC/whatnot when I peek/know.
A real subjectivist would care less what op-amp, magic wire, magic dac, amp, etc. was involved, only their subjective experience would matter.

 

[Mivera]

Within the dynamic of this forum I am seen as subjectivist, the only arguments I see from you tend to be listening based. Sighted too boot so I guess they see you the same way. Not really high school mentality Mike, it's just humans. How we see our selfs is irrelevant in this context.

I actually share pictures of hardware and explain why different layouts, and components matter. This objective data is far more important than industry standards numbers. But since most self proclaimed objectivists have absolutely no understanding of electronics, they have a very hard time being interested in what actually matters. It's the same problem with the self proclaimed subjectivists. Both flat earthers IMO.

 

[RayDunzl]

What about us sobjectivists?

 

[Thomas savage]

I actually share pictures of hardware and explain why different layouts, and components matter. This objective data is far more important than industry standards numbers. But since most self proclaimed objectivists have absolutely no understanding of electronics, they have a very hard time being interested in what actually matters. It's the same problem with the self proclaimed subjectivists. Both flat earthers IMO.

Hey AJ has you down as pseudo-subjectivist going by that lol

I just think of you as Mike, the blond manikin lover.

I think of myself as non of these things. Just a aging guy that don't get out much.