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The Denon & LG & Apple TV lip sync drama troubleshoot

Beershaun

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For me at least, I can't stand judder. I have a display that is capable of matching the frame rate of the source material, why wouldn't I use it?
Sorry don't follow. I thought we were talking about the Appletv matching the original frame rate of the source content. Not the TV matching the output of the Appletv streamer. TVs now a days easily run at much higher frame rates than most movie our TV content.
 

Beershaun

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That's exactly what match frame rate does. It switches your tv to use the same framerate as the content, so 24, 50 or 60 fps:

Thanks for sharing. I interpret that differently than you do. I interpret it as Apple sets the frame rate sent to the TV as the same as source. Then the TV decides what to do with it. In most cases deciding to multiply it or not depending on the settings the user has set on the TV. Often called motion smoothing or Cinema effect. So if you are watching a movie where the source is in 24fps then apple sends it to the TV in 24 fps. The TV then decides based on the user setting (cinema or smoothing etc) whether to keep it at 24fps or double it to 48, 96, etc. If the source is TV 60fps (like a youtube video or video game) then apple sends it to the TV at 60fps. I don't think Apple is taking control of the TV. That, at least, has been my experience with my FireTV and Roku when I set them to match frame rate. I still can change the "motion smoothing" settings to control the TVs frame rate. The TV processor typically interpolates between the source frames to create new frames to fill in the extra frames missing from the streamer.
 

ascl

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So, specifically with my TV (I can't speak for yours), an LG OLEDC9, it changes the TV to use the specified frame rate. Apple's doc's say:
"If you turn on either of these settings, Apple TV will attempt to automatically determine which dynamic ranges or frame rates your television supports". With my TV, I can check the frame rate (via the internal diganostic screen), and it uses whatever the source is when match frame rate is selected. So yes, the AppleTV is definitely affecting what frame rate the TV is displaying.

Keep in mind that not all frame rates are divisible. My "default" framerate in the AppleTV is 50Hz (yay PAL content), which doesn't work well at all with 24fps, so viewing 24fps content in 50 Hz mode sucks. Even 50 fps content in 120hz mode would suck (although likely nowhere near as much!).

EDIT: It's worth noting that in a way you are right, the AppleTV isn't taking control of the TV, but it is setting the EDID in the signal that is sent to the TV. The TV then figures out what to do with this, and if your TV only supports 60hz, it will take the input and do <stuff> to it to hopefully display it. Something like a hdfury allows you to see what the devices pass to each other as EDID, which can be somewhat interesting.
 
OP
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My TV is the LG B19LA.
I checked with match framerate on with the diagnostic feature for vrr (green button spam) that the actual framerate ist used. It shows 24hz for example in watching dolby vision content.

The TV has to tell which delay it is producing to display the picture in difference to the sound. And this is for my understandings not happening.

Thats the tv side with hdmi 2.0b and above.

So for auto lip sync to work the delay the avr has to set is not provided.
I want to clarify that this delay is only getting worse with match framerate active. It makes it unwatchable.
If i dont use this feature there is still a slight delay which for sure can be adjusted.

BUT: This is the problem here. The whole reason to buy a apple tv is for using this framerate feature to get the original material.

After switching the avr from 3600h to 3700h not affecting anything. Changing the apple tv to a new device not affecting anything i really think its the tv.

Why is this not happening on Amazon Fire TV? This is a funny thing. This device has also a match framerate option. But on netflix for example its not beeing used.
The lg always tells me the 50hz content. Even if it works: The fire tv has his own setting to align picture with sound. There is a bar so can slide to adjust this.
So the delay is preadjusted.
The apple tv device doesnt have this feature.

In conclusion:
Since the apple tv cannot adjust anything the tv has to do this. And its not doing it.

If you processor of your tv is slow the delay gets worse. Just logical. The b1 is the slowest processor of the 2021 lineup.
And when this LG is not telling any delay to the avr this is just unfixable.

This is why i generated a warranty request. This request comes to an present meeting where the technician change the whole board of this tv.
This again doesnt affect anything. The request comes to a second request and lg tells me that the part which is needed to switch is not available.
What part is a mystery for me.
Now i have the chance to refund this tv.

I have to go to another lg because theres no other tv on the market (at least in this price range, sony costs around the double) with the features i need.
I hope the new one will work. Till today i cant find any problems on any forum with the 2022 lineup which makes me a little hopeful that the horror story comes to an end.

If this is not fixing it well than i have to ask if any human on the planet have their brains defect and cannot see the issue here.

Sorry my english is not the best on the planet :D
 

DrStranger

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My TV is the LG B19LA.
I checked with match framerate on with the diagnostic feature for vrr (green button spam) that the actual framerate ist used. It shows 24hz for example in watching dolby vision content.

The TV has to tell which delay it is producing to display the picture in difference to the sound. And this is for my understandings not happening.

Thats the tv side with hdmi 2.0b and above.

So for auto lip sync to work the delay the avr has to set is not provided.
I want to clarify that this delay is only getting worse with match framerate active. It makes it unwatchable.
If i dont use this feature there is still a slight delay which for sure can be adjusted.

BUT: This is the problem here. The whole reason to buy a apple tv is for using this framerate feature to get the original material.

After switching the avr from 3600h to 3700h not affecting anything. Changing the apple tv to a new device not affecting anything i really think its the tv.

Why is this not happening on Amazon Fire TV? This is a funny thing. This device has also a match framerate option. But on netflix for example its not beeing used.
The lg always tells me the 50hz content. Even if it works: The fire tv has his own setting to align picture with sound. There is a bar so can slide to adjust this.
So the delay is preadjusted.
The apple tv device doesnt have this feature.

In conclusion:
Since the apple tv cannot adjust anything the tv has to do this. And its not doing it.

If you processor of your tv is slow the delay gets worse. Just logical. The b1 is the slowest processor of the 2021 lineup.
And when this LG is not telling any delay to the avr this is just unfixable.

This is why i generated a warranty request. This request comes to an present meeting where the technician change the whole board of this tv.
This again doesnt affect anything. The request comes to a second request and lg tells me that the part which is needed to switch is not available.
What part is a mystery for me.
Now i have the chance to refund this tv.

I have to go to another lg because theres no other tv on the market (at least in this price range, sony costs around the double) with the features i need.
I hope the new one will work. Till today i cant find any problems on any forum with the 2022 lineup which makes me a little hopeful that the horror story comes to an end.

If this is not fixing it well than i have to ask if any human on the planet have their brains defect and cannot see the issue here.

Sorry my english is not the best on the planet :D
One last advice for you is to do what I used to tell my customers when I sat as tech support for PC.. :)

Start over. Reset your TV to factory default. Same goes for Denon and the ATV. Update to latest firmware on all three.

Then do the following ( yes it’s not your gear, but you want the order and the methodology);


To synchronize the ARC and CEC handshake. Don’t toy around with anything else.

Best if luck.
 
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CEC or handshake issues are not present here. All functions working except the audio sync.

I have done some handshake resets recently. There two methods to do this.

2 Resets with apple tv and the new one.. All with newest firmware.
The mainboard switched force me to reset the tv. I updated it.
I have done 2 resets before and one after it.
It makes no difference...

Even the hdmi chip reset ive done. There is a power disconnect and plugging routine to do this.
Also makes no difference.
But thank you!
 

DrStranger

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CEC or handshake issues are not present here. All functions working except the audio sync.

I have done some handshake resets recently. There two methods to do this.

2 Resets with apple tv and the new one.. All with newest firmware.
The mainboard switched force me to reset the tv. I updated it.
I have done 2 resets before and one after it.
It makes no difference...

Even the hdmi chip reset ive done. There is a power disconnect and plugging routine to do this.
Also makes no difference.
But thank you!
Check.
 

Beershaun

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I'm sorry to hear about all this frustration to get this to work. My last thought is, ditch the Appletv and use a Roku or FireTV instead. As you stated the problem seems to be with the Appletv and you stated the FireTV doesn't have the same problem. I'd get rid of what is broken rather than chase trying to fix it with your TV.
 
OP
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My last action will be a new tv with the warranty process. I will reply if this fixes the problem.
If all not work this will be the only solution. As sad as it is.
 

DrStranger

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My last action will be a new tv with the warranty process. I will reply if this fixes the problem.
If all not work this will be the only solution. As sad as it is.
Have you these settings in your LG?


If you have, someone similar , please play around with them as per the clip, you might have seen this clip? And don’t involve the Apple TV since you have the same problem with the internal apps as well.

Also try new HDMI cable, if you haven’t , I would recommend a certified 8K - 48Gbps cable, don’t have to be an expensive one but a certified and quality one however. I saw this clip, very similar to your situation:


Also last but not least, this is a long shot since you have 1Gbit in your Apple TV 4K if it’s the latest one, if you have the spare money and want to also overall improve your network speed of your cables LAN on your TV, just want to make sure that there is not issue going from your 200Mbit from your ISP —> Router —> then a reduction to 100Mbit since LG’s Ethernet port is 100Mbit, I don’t think it’s a issue in the data rate process since the lowest controls the stream and should request a 100Mbit link, but it’s worth trying in case you have the patience, money and time:

 
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OP
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I understand your statements but:

clip 1:
Of course i tried all these settings. The most on my webos is a little different. For sure it is possible to get internal apps in sync if you delay them softwarewise.
This is still not the problem here.
The sound source is not the LG. The sound sources are connected on the AVR.
i tried for example to switch the sound source and connect different devices on the lg itself. Then you have the ability to change the settings.
Yes manually this will work but on match framerate settings there is not enough playroom to adjust the delay wide enough.

To reproduce the same exact issue you will activate bypass. The TV will bypass the audio signal without any processing. And you get the same exact scenario over earc.
The delays looks identical. Picture later than sound. This is also true for internal apps.

Clip 2: I tried normal 2.0b cable and 2 different certified HDMI 2.1 cables. Tried this on the TV connection AND on Apple Tv. These are 16 different combinations i tried. Nothing helped.

Clip 3: My internet is 250mbit. The LG is connected with WLAN. For sure for internal apps it can be a difference. But for external sources on the avr side i have everything connected with cables. The lip sync protocols are sended over HDMI and not via internet.

I can mess around now with the internal apps yes. But here is the thing. If i switch the sound to the TV speakers. The problem is away! Stated this at the beginning.
It cant be my internet connection. BTW my rounter is only 10ft away.

The reason why this is working on the fire tv is, that the delay on the fix framerate at 50 this device is providing the delays are preadjusted on the source device. If this is not possible you already loose the fight. (like on a apple tv)
 

restorer-john

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Dude, you totally need to roll-back to a VHS HiFi VCR. No lip sync problems ever. ;)
 

restorer-john

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We had sound, and we had pictures at the turn of the 20th century. Then they put them together, moved the pictures and the sound and it worked really well- for nearly a century.

Then along came digital 'perfection' and the sounds and the pictures are totally out of whack more times than they are correct. :facepalm:

Ironic don't you think?
 

DrStranger

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If trying new quality cable’s , direct cabling to internet/router, check router, check settings , latest firmware , and all other settings and tips that you could have recived in this tread, then I am out of ideas.

If you find out the solution, let us know.

You probably seen this as well:


Best of luck to you! <3
 
OP
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Your thread is covering a weird problem tho :D
Little update on fire tv stick. I found a content where the fire tv is changing its output framerate to 24. The movie venom i hope i can say this here :D
Oh wonder. The problem appears. :D Audio out of sync now. Disabling match framerate. Good again?
This is driving me crazy.. So ditch Apple TV is no option anymore...

yeah i will update if i can get a step further


EDIT: OH OH
I found an article sended today that the apps like netflix on fire tv getting frame rate matching support. Goodbye my friends. I expect/hope this topic will explode now :D
 
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ascl

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Oh that is interesting, so the issue isn't the Apple TV specifically, but exists with FireTV too? Thanks for testing that, saves me buying one... but that means it is the TV... or maybe the receiver. Hmm.
 
OP
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if its the receiver i would expect any users of denon and marantz since 2020 would complain about this.
I cannot believe that any person who use these devices always set manually delays.
But im not sure.
 

DrStranger

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if its the receiver i would expect any users of denon and marantz since 2020 would complain about this.
I cannot believe that any person who use these devices always set manually delays.
But im not sure.
This is exactly what I am underlying trying to say, if your problem was a compatibility issue then every owner of the same setup would have the issue, but it’s not to my understanding. Some of these owners probably have no clue how to do the settings but still have no problems with audio/video not being synchronized. That’s why I am asking you to do stuff that might at first not be relevant (I know you did a lot), part of troubleshooting is to rule out the simplest and begin from scratch. I would start with different cables, as mentioned before a quality 8K - 48Gbps cable between the TV and Receiver. And for the sake of all, use Ethernet cable to the TV instead of Wi-Fi.

And believe me, I have a very long experience of the simplest solutions to the most crazy technical problems.

Best of luck.
 
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