New member - 2 channel room correction advice

[GXAlan]

Buy the Onkyo or Denon. Those extra channels are offset by the huge economies of scale so you don’t pay a lot extra compared to a dedicated two channel setup like the old Arcam SR250 or SA30. The newer SA30 dropped the Dolby decoding.

Then, because you aren’t using all the channels, you actually have more of the power supply for the 2 channels. So, it’s actually a GREAT idea to get an AVR for a two channel system.

Dirac has more power for adjusting your response curve, since it’s included with the Onkyo.

The Denon’s have the ability to mix the LFE into the main channels if I recall. I don’t know if the Onkyo does that. You would probably just use the iOS app or Audyssey One to get your full range response.

In both cases, HDMI CEC will let you use something like the AppleTV remote to control volume.

 

[Verig]

Someone has suggested twice your budget...
I'll counter with Half

AppleTV ----> MiniDSP DDRC-24 ----> FOSI Audio V3 Mono (x2) ----> KLH

Advantages:
DIRAC !!!!!
Compact size. The MiniD & Two FOSI's are each very small compared to an AVS allowing them to be lined up on One shallow shelf for a clean look.

$800 Total Cost (Including UMIK-1 calibration mic.)

Bit of a learning curve setting that up but very good. Not sure if you're talking about my suggestion but used NAD M10 is a one box solution for 1000€ and comes with hdmi which was needed. Also, a streamer and multiroom so it's actually cheaper. If one is not averse of used market that is.

 

[JohnW]

The cheaper Denon receivers have the more basic MultEq XT which seems to do a good job in the bass in my room with my X1700H Denon, and the $/£20 app still allows you to adjust the curve and set a frequency cutoff point for correction. It's not massively powerful but it's adequate for my smallish room (5m x 4m) with not very efficient speakers. If your current Denon 1300 is powerful enough for you then it should be OK.

Biggest limitation is inputs: only 2 optical and 2 analogue (+ phono stage) and no coaxial digital.

Still far more channels than you require, but you could think of that as a bit of current in reserve when driving only 2 speakers.

In the UK I got my unit with a free 5 year warranty, don't know if US retailers offer that.

BTW, if configured without a subwoofer, any .1 LFE input channel (for instance from a blue ray) will be fed to the front L/R speakers.

Thanks for the reply. My current Denon is having issues. Remote doesn’t work, internet radio doesn’t work, no eARC which I want…it will definitely be replaced. This is the second Denon that has had problems for me, the prior one quit working completely. I may have unrealistic expectations for how long these things should last but I’m leaning toward the NAD C 379 in hopes that it’s more reliable long term.

 

[JohnW]

Someone has suggested twice your budget...
I'll counter with Half

AppleTV ----> MiniDSP DDRC-24 ----> FOSI Audio V3 Mono (x2) ----> KLH

Advantages:
DIRAC !!!!!
Compact size. The MiniD & Two FOSI's are each very small compared to an AVS allowing them to be lined up on one shallow shelf for a clean look.

$800 Total Cost (Including UMIK-1 calibration mic.)

Thanks for the advice. My current Apple TV is HDMI out only, I could HDMI to my TV and then optical out to the MiniDSP but optical won’t control volume. I would need a two channel receiver or integrated amp which is cheap enough I guess, but then I’m dealing with multiple remotes, correct?

I get interested in MiniDSP products but for my application the connections seem more complicated, unless I’m misunderstanding something.

 

[ViperDom]

AppleTV Adapter:

Kanex Digital Audio Adapter for Apple TV

Streams high-definition content from the new Apple TV®, Amazon fireTV™, Nexus™ Player or Roku® to an HDTV, 4K monitor, or projector with surround sound audio support.,

www.kanex.com

What is the criteria for a receiver to be able to have its volume controlled via AppleTV?

I like having two remotes. It lets me leave the show selection, pausing, skipping, ect... to wife so i can solely control the audio.
Team work

 

[Verig]

T

AppleTV Adapter:

Kanex Digital Audio Adapter for Apple TV

Streams high-definition content from the new Apple TV®, Amazon fireTV™, Nexus™ Player or Roku® to an HDTV, 4K monitor, or projector with surround sound audio support.,

www.kanex.com

What is the criteria for a receiver to be able to have its volume controlled via AppleTV?

I like having two remotes. It lets me leave the show selection, pausing, skipping, ect... to wife so i can solely control the audio.
Team work

That would handicap AppleTV very seriously.

 

[ddaudio]

Thanks for the reply. My current Denon is having issues. Remote doesn’t work, internet radio doesn’t work, no eARC which I want…it will definitely be replaced. This is the second Denon that has had problems for me, the prior one quit working completely. I may have unrealistic expectations for how long these things should last but I’m leaning toward the NAD C 379 in hopes that it’s more reliable long term.

Sorry, I wasn't clear: I wasn't saying keep your existing Denon, just that if that provides the output power you need, the newer 1000 series Denons like my X1700H would too.

That NAD looks like a nice unit, but at least here in the UK more expensive (£1300 with the Dirac/network card) than even a mid-range Denon. I see the NAD has a sub out - I've got speakers rated down to 40hz, but my bass is much better when crossed over at 80hz to a small sub, equalised by Audyssey, behind my TV (better control of room modes, I suppose), so something to consider for the future.

Good luck with whatever you decide.

 

[JohnW]

Reviving this thread as it’s decision time. I have $445 in credits at Best Buy from the purchase of a Samsung TV…I thought they were good indefinitely but discovered today that they expire on July 13. I need nothing from Best Buy so it really makes sense for me to use them now on a new receiver or amplifier.

I have been waiting on the release of the NAD C379 but Best Buy can’t get it, certainly not by the 13th. The more expensive NAD C 389 is back ordered so that’s not an option either. That leaves me with these finalists:

ARCAM SA30, on sale for $1980, down from $3300. Two channel, Dirac, streaming, eARC HDMI checks all of my boxes. Cons: price, and some complaints of clunky interface/software. Seems to be a discontinued model.

DENON avr-X3800H, on sale for @$1359. Has all the features I want: Audyssey, eARC, etc at an affordable price. Cons: big ugly box, likely must sit on my console because they always run hot if behind a cabinet. I’ve had two Denons crater on me, which leaves me questioning build quality and reliability. Unneeded channels in my simple two channel system.

Any additional thoughts on these two, or any other all-in-one solution available to order from Best Buy in the next few days?

 

[JeremyFife]

Reviving this thread as it’s decision time. I have $445 in credits at Best Buy from the purchase of a Samsung TV…I thought they were good indefinitely but discovered today that they expire on July 13. I need nothing from Best Buy so it really makes sense for me to use them now on a new receiver or amplifier.

I have been waiting on the release of the NAD C379 but Best Buy can’t get it, certainly not by the 13th. The more expensive NAD C 389 is back ordered so that’s not an option either. That leaves me with these finalists:

ARCAM SA30, on sale for $1980, down from $3300. Two channel, Dirac, streaming, eARC HDMI checks all of my boxes. Cons: price, and some complaints of clunky interface/software. Seems to be a discontinued model.

DENON avr-X3800H, on sale for @$1359. Has all the features I want: Audyssey, eARC, etc at an affordable price. Cons: big ugly box, likely must sit on my console because they always run hot if behind a cabinet. I’ve had two Denons crater on me, which leaves me questioning build quality and reliability. Unneeded channels in my simple two channel system.

Any additional thoughts on these two, or any other all-in-one solution available to order from Best Buy in the next few days?

It would help to know what you need -the features; inputs, what are your speakers, how loud do you listen?

Denon gets love here, but it's difficult to recommend without knowing what you actually want.

 

[JohnW]

It would help to know what you need -the features; inputs, what are your speakers, how loud do you listen?

Denon gets love here, but it's difficult to recommend without knowing what you actually want.

Thanks for the reply. Those details are in the first post, I’m replying to my own thread. Summarizing: simple two channel system with no surround or subwoofer planned. New KLH Model 5 speakers. Used primarily for music but also for tv & movie audio. Source is primarily streaming via Apple Music and Spotify; considering switching to Tidal. Currently streaming through AppleTV, open to using Tidal Connect etc if the amp provides it. Requirements:
1.) room correction (Audyssey XT32 with app, or Dirac, Anthem ARC, etc).
2.) eARC HDMI connection to my tv
3.) ease of use and simplicity
4.) build quality and reliability

Any advice appreciated on ARCAM SA30 vs the cheaper Denon. Or I can try to find other use for my Best Buy store credit, and buy either the NAD C 379 or C 389 elsewhere. Really struggling with this decision as I want it to be a long term solution. Thanks

 

[JeremyFife]

Thanks for the reply. Those details are in the first post, I’m replying to my own thread. Summarizing: simple two channel system with no surround or subwoofer planned. New KLH Model 5 speakers. Used primarily for music but also for tv & movie audio. Source is primarily streaming via Apple Music and Spotify; considering switching to Tidal. Currently streaming through AppleTV, open to using Tidal Connect etc if the amp provides it. Requirements:
1.) room correction (Audyssey XT32 with app, or Dirac, Anthem ARC, etc).
2.) eARC HDMI connection to my tv
3.) ease of use and simplicity
4.) build quality and reliability

Any advice appreciated on ARCAM SA30 vs the cheaper Denon. Or I can try to find other use for my Best Buy store credit, and buy either the NAD C 379 or C 389 elsewhere. Really struggling with this decision as I want it to be a long term solution. Thanks

There are some measurement based reviews that may help.
I don't know enough about AVRs to advise I'm afraid. The Arcam seems like a lot of amplifier for what you need.
NAD's look nice, but don't have a great reputation for reliability these days.

Your speakers seem reasonably easy to drive (87-90 dB sensitivity, 3.5 ohm min impedance) so shouldn't need huge amounts of power

Sorry I can't give a clear recommendation - good luck

Arcam

SoundStageNetwork.com | SoundStage.com - Arcam SA30 Integrated Amplifier-DAC

www.soundstagenetwork.com

Denon

Denon AVR-X3800H Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Denon AVR-X3800H 9.4 Home Theater Audio/Video Receiver. It was kindly drop shipped to me by a member and costs US $1,699. Not much to say about the look of the unit as it is pretty much similar/same as last generations. Here is the back panel...

audiosciencereview.com

or cheap ... WiiM Amp?

WiiM Amp Streaming Amplifier Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the WiiM Amp streaming amplifier. It was sent to me by the company and costs US $299. I was pleasantly surprised by the good bit of weight this small box has. It will help it not slide with the weight of the speaker wires and such. Back panel shows...

audiosciencereview.com

Something like a Bluesound Powernode might also be interesting if that's an option for you.

 

[Acerun]

I have the Denon 4700 with a 9.2 configuration for movies. I A/B'd the Denon 4700 setup against the RME ADI-2 DAC FS with the Boxem Purifi amp for stereo only. I much prefer the ADI-2 setup on many levels.

1. The RME offers enhanced clarity of sound to my ears and more control.

2. The RME ADI-2 DAC FS uses 6W while idle. The Boxem 4215/E2 Purifi uses 14W while idle and automatically drops to less than .5W when no music is detected for 10 min. Compare that to my Denon 4700 using 132W while idle when not in full pre-amp mode. In full pre-amp mode the Denon internal amps are disengaged and power use drops to 46W. The RME ADI-2 is a clear energy efficiency champ over any AVR.

3. The RME and Purifi amp use XLR connectors which offer secure connections and significantly higher gain options than the Denon.

4. I prefer the RME software Remote application and using the Loudness configuration option compared to Audyssey. I don't mind using REW and the UMIK to help tune EQ and the RME loudness options allow me to tweak the music just the way I want it. With RME it's easy to modify and listen to the changes in real-time.

5. The foot print of the ADI-2 and Boxem Purifi amp is small compared to the Denon 4700. My Denon 4700 requires fans to keep it warm to the touch. The RME/ADI-2 doesn't need a fan and stays cool even after long listening sessions.

6. SINAD is significantly higher with the Purifi/RME. I don't have a noise issue with either one but the details of the music sound cleaner to me with the RME/Purifi combo.

For home theatre the Denon is fine. But when I want a detailed stereo listening session with options for 20 EQ presets, Loudness fine tuning capability, high gain, crossed and easy access filter options via software remote the ADI-2 DAC FS offers a whole new level of control.

I know active room EQ and no subwoofer integration like you can get from Multieq-x. I went down this path with purifi and my RME and I went back to my Denon x8500h due to the seamless subwoofer integration and room correction of MQX.

 

[JohnW]

I’m reviving my own thread here again, slowest decision process ever. I appreciate the patience of anyone reading this. I think I’ve decided on the newly released NAD C379 integrated amplifier with Bluos and Dirac Live. As posted previously I’m looking for a one box solution with room correction, eARC, adequate power for a simple two channel system.

NAD C 379

Integrated amplifier with DAC and Bluetooth®

www.crutchfield.com

My question: will this be enough power? I am driving (new) KLH Model 5 speakers in a large room. Most listening is at moderate volume although I also use the system for movies at higher volumes (2 channel, no surround speakers or subwoofers).

Currently I use a (failing) Denon AVR-X1300W with Audyssey. It is rated at 80wpc into 8ohms, 120wpc into 6 ohms. The Denon spec sheet also lists 175w into 6ohms at 10% distortion (!). I have never experienced any clipping or lack of power with the Denon. The KLH Model 5’s are 6ohm nominal.

I have been assuming the NAD C379 would be adequate given a similar rated power (80watts) into 8 ohms. But as I continue to over think this, I am concerned whether that is as case…as I understand it, these type D amplifiers have less room above their rated power for short music power demands and/or lower impedance speakers than traditional A/B amplifiers? Does that point to needing a higher wpc power rating on class D designs?

Also, will Dirac Live running a Harman curve require more amp power, with full range speakers and no subs?

I can upgrade to the NAD C389 which has 120wpc but is above my budget. There are refurbished and open box models out there but not sure if that is a wise choice or not.

Thanks for any thoughts or advice.

 

[JeremyFife]

As usual, answering questions with more questions ...

" ... a large room ..." - how large? However, if you found the 80W Denon loud enough then your NAD should be fine. The NAD has available headroom for peaks too.

Movies are slightly different, and further outside my knowledge. Bass becomes more important, and that needs power. If you find things lacking then that points to you needing a subwoofer - because you can then high pass the speakers, sending the low frequencies to your sub and allowing the amp and main speakers to just deal with frequencies above the crossover setting. That takes a load off the amp.

You can deal with bass and subs later though.

 

[JohnW]

As usual, answering questions with more questions ...

" ... a large room ..." - how large? However, if you found the 80W Denon loud enough then your NAD should be fine. The NAD has available headroom for peaks too.

Movies are slightly different, and further outside my knowledge. Bass becomes more important, and that needs power. If you find things lacking then that points to you needing a subwoofer - because you can then high pass the speakers, sending the low frequencies to your sub and allowing the amp and main speakers to just deal with frequencies above the crossover setting. That takes a load off the amp.

You can deal with bass and subs later though.

Room is 18 feet wide with 9-1/2 foot ceilings. There is a partial wall 18 feet back, but the room is mostly open to dining room which adds another 15 feet of length. Listening position is 13 feet from front wall and 11 feet from speakers.

I am not a critical listener with regard to movies, as long as I don’t have to listen to built in tv speakers. So I don’t anticipate subwoofers or home theater, ever. The Denon has been fine from a power perspective. But given the cost I want to make sure I’m not underpowered…hoping to buy once and be set for many years. I’m not shaking the walls with the volume knob but I do listen at higher volume on occasion. Mostly rock, Americana, pop or jazz.

The NAD C379 is rated 80wpc into 8 or 4 ohms, versus my Denon which is 80wpc into 8 ohms, 120wpc into 6ohms. The Denon isn’t rated for 4ohm speakers. Any thoughts appreciated.

 

[JeremyFife]

Sounds like you are stuck in 'analysis paralysis' or some other horrible phrase.

Have a look at this handy calculator: https://www.crownaudio.com/en/tools/calculators#amp_power_required
You are 3.4m from your speakers: listening at 85dB SPL (too loud for me) and allowing 6dB headroom - and dropping your speaker sensitivity to 85 dB to allow (crudely) for the reduced resistance of your speakers - says you need 46W

Others here will say that you might want more power for very dynamic music (big classical). Many people will say that more power is better as a general principle. It's also true that you soon forget about the money you've spent.
However, you already know that you don't actually need it, not really, since your Denon was ok for you.

I'm not really helping ... I don't think I can.
You want a one box solution and you don't want to go over budget but you have a nagging worry about ending up underpowered sometimes.

Only you can balance this out I'm afraid.

Good luck, I sympathise

 

[JohnW]

Sounds like you are stuck in 'analysis paralysis' or some other horrible phrase.

Have a look at this handy calculator: https://www.crownaudio.com/en/tools/calculators#amp_power_required
You are 3.4m from your speakers: listening at 85dB SPL (too loud for me) and allowing 6dB headroom - and dropping your speaker sensitivity to 85 dB to allow (crudely) for the reduced resistance of your speakers - says you need 46W

Others here will say that you might want more power for very dynamic music (big classical). Many people will say that more power is better as a general principle. It's also true that you soon forget about the money you've spent.
However, you already know that you don't actually need it, not really, since your Denon was ok for you.

I'm not really helping ... I don't think I can.
You want a one box solution and you don't want to go over budget but you have a nagging worry about ending up underpowered sometimes.

Only you can balance this out I'm afraid.

Good luck, I sympathise

Thank you, very helpful. Haven’t seen that calculator before. It is definitely “analysis paralysis”!

 

[ehabheikal]

Minidsp flex can run dirac for the cheapest dirac setup to the best of my knowledge.

 

[Chrispy]

Room is 18 feet wide with 9-1/2 foot ceilings. There is a partial wall 18 feet back, but the room is mostly open to dining room which adds another 15 feet of length. Listening position is 13 feet from front wall and 11 feet from speakers.

I am not a critical listener with regard to movies, as long as I don’t have to listen to built in tv speakers. So I don’t anticipate subwoofers or home theater, ever. The Denon has been fine from a power perspective. But given the cost I want to make sure I’m not underpowered…hoping to buy once and be set for many years. I’m not shaking the walls with the volume knob but I do listen at higher volume on occasion. Mostly rock, Americana, pop or jazz.

The NAD C379 is rated 80wpc into 8 or 4 ohms, versus my Denon which is 80wpc into 8 ohms, 120wpc into 6ohms. The Denon isn’t rated for 4ohm speakers. Any thoughts appreciated.

May not be rated for four ohm but the Denon should be fine with it as well as a bit higher wattage in four ohm than the 8/6 ratings. Another spl calculator here http://www.hometheaterengineering.com/splcalculator.html

 

[JohnW]

May not be rated for four ohm but the Denon should be fine with it as well as a bit higher wattage in four ohm than the 8/6 ratings. Another spl calculator here http://www.hometheaterengineering.com/splcalculator.html

Thanks, I appreciate that calculator as well.

I’ve used the Denon for years and have no concerns about adequate power from it…but features are failing and it needs to be replaced. What’s confusing me is the NAD class D amps list 80wpc into 8 or 4 ohms…versus the Denon at 80wpc into 8 ohms, and 120wpc into 6 ohms. Why doesn’t the NAD achieve a higher output with lower ohm speakers? Is the 80wpc Denon (that has been adequate power) equivalent, or more powerful than, the 80wpc NAD?