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The Denon & LG & Apple TV lip sync drama troubleshoot
- Thread starter chriss.chneider
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DrStranger
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Another thing... Can you watch normal TV broadcast (non-streamed) and push to the Denon, does it also cause a/v missmatch?
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chriss.chneider
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Oh that is hard to tell. I have connected my cable tv on the tv itself. There were some channels where it was async. But some are not async.
After trying this. We start Netflix app on the tv. I want to compare the sound via earc after im not sure with live tv. My partner (girl... dont know how its called on your country slang) on the new sandman trailer we watched she screems.
Ok thats heavy, i can understand you... so my brain is working
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chriss.chneider
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mhh is that ok with copyright?
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chriss.chneider
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I take a short clip. I hope you will be able to watch. This is with activated frame rate matching on fire tv.
Controlled on tv at 24hz.
Dont know how long you can download this. This forum doesnt allow me to upload this so i do it on wetransfer =)
Controlled on tv at 24hz.
Dont know how long you can download this. This forum doesnt allow me to upload this so i do it on wetransfer =)
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chriss.chneider
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Update:
Now the setup is:
LG G2
ATV 4k gen 2
AVC-X3700h
On ATV match frame rate active, adjust range also active. Delay is still present. Not as much as with the b1 but present.
This was the moment when my remote control flys through my room.
Let me conclude something:
I switched the ATV,
I switched the AVR from 3600h to 3700h
I switched the TV vom B1 to G2
I switched every HDMI cable
Yes i dont switch tv manufacturer and yes i dont switch the avr. Why? Only them has the features i need.
This is a give up for me. After spending now around 4k to fix the problem. I want to thank everybody for trying to help me to fix this.
The only thing i can imagine now which is a solution will be a firmware fix on denon side or LG?
For a manufacturer switch on avr or on tv side i dont have enough money anymore.
Its for me not understandable why nobody have this problem, or nobody sees it.
Maybe in the future some magic happen...
Greetings to all.
Now the setup is:
LG G2
ATV 4k gen 2
AVC-X3700h
On ATV match frame rate active, adjust range also active. Delay is still present. Not as much as with the b1 but present.
This was the moment when my remote control flys through my room.
Let me conclude something:
I switched the ATV,
I switched the AVR from 3600h to 3700h
I switched the TV vom B1 to G2
I switched every HDMI cable
Yes i dont switch tv manufacturer and yes i dont switch the avr. Why? Only them has the features i need.
This is a give up for me. After spending now around 4k to fix the problem. I want to thank everybody for trying to help me to fix this.
The only thing i can imagine now which is a solution will be a firmware fix on denon side or LG?
For a manufacturer switch on avr or on tv side i dont have enough money anymore.
Its for me not understandable why nobody have this problem, or nobody sees it.
Maybe in the future some magic happen...
Greetings to all.
dshreter
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You need to find an objective perspective to KNOW what is going on with the delay. Trying to match up delay by eye and ear will drive you crazy and make you think you’ve lost your mind matching up the lips and sound. Worse, it makes you pay close attention to it when a small delay can just go unnoticed when you aren’t looking for it.
One easy way to take measurements is with slow motion videos from your phone. Go to the YouTube app and find an audio sync video with a beeping tone and audio indicator. YouTube should be on AppleTV and the built in apps.
This video would work well:
Record it in slow motion and play it back. You should be able to hear the tone and have a visual to see what the offset is. Figure out the offset and if it can be fixed for both Apple TV and built in apps or fire stick, whatever. You have a measurement to work with instead of going bonkers.
If the video delay is consistent, it will be easy to fix in the denon. If the audio is delayed that’s a harder problem.
One easy way to take measurements is with slow motion videos from your phone. Go to the YouTube app and find an audio sync video with a beeping tone and audio indicator. YouTube should be on AppleTV and the built in apps.
This video would work well:
Record it in slow motion and play it back. You should be able to hear the tone and have a visual to see what the offset is. Figure out the offset and if it can be fixed for both Apple TV and built in apps or fire stick, whatever. You have a measurement to work with instead of going bonkers.
If the video delay is consistent, it will be easy to fix in the denon. If the audio is delayed that’s a harder problem.
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chriss.chneider
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The thing is:
The youtube app plays at 60hz refreshrate.
If i correct the delay value on the denon in this case its 40ms youtube will be ok.
As soon as i start a netflix content it is switched to 24. The delay changes. Now the 40ms is not right anymore.
The youtube app plays at 60hz refreshrate.
If i correct the delay value on the denon in this case its 40ms youtube will be ok.
As soon as i start a netflix content it is switched to 24. The delay changes. Now the 40ms is not right anymore.
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chriss.chneider
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I make a slo motion video with my iphone. And at 40ms it hits for my eyes on the youtube app which is at 60hz exactly the point.
Then i go to netflix and now its 24hz or 24p whatever. And its not even close.
Just to remind. Im from europe i use PAL format and my apple tv is set to 50hz. This 60hz must be related to the frame rate switching of the apple tv in the youtube app.
Then i go to netflix and now its 24hz or 24p whatever. And its not even close.
Just to remind. Im from europe i use PAL format and my apple tv is set to 50hz. This 60hz must be related to the frame rate switching of the apple tv in the youtube app.
dshreter
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It’s a start towards a root cause. On 24Hz content is it audio or video lagging?
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chriss.chneider
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Its ALWAYS the video which is behind audio. In other words: audio comes first then the video.
dshreter
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- It's been suggested to troubleshoot this first with the internal apps before adding the variable of Apple TV. I think that's a good idea, and I would confirm you have the same issue on 24Hz content via the TV's internal (Netfix) app.
- I would confirm if the issue is the same with and without a receiver attached. Do you have a video delay when using the internal speakers?
- Netflix also has test patterns you can use so you can make measurements and quantify the issue with 24 fps content. https://www.netflix.com/title/80018499
- If you are getting a huge delay from internal apps then there is an issue with the TV. Even though there are modern features to help address lip sync, the natural video delay shouldn't be so great that it exceeds the delay capacity of the TV or AVR. So you know you need to work on the TV settings or replace the TV if that's the case.
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chriss.chneider
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Update:
LG G2 internal apps are synced. Hurray... i can watch content. On B1 this doesnt work!!!
The delay exists now also WITHOUT match frame rate!!!
The TV is a replacement. (B1 to G2) Till today i gain the first achievement. Internal apps are synced via EARC.
Next step for me is to connect the atv on the tv directly.
LG G2 internal apps are synced. Hurray... i can watch content. On B1 this doesnt work!!!
The delay exists now also WITHOUT match frame rate!!!
The TV is a replacement. (B1 to G2) Till today i gain the first achievement. Internal apps are synced via EARC.
Next step for me is to connect the atv on the tv directly.
Had the same issue with X3700H and LG C2. Turning off HDMI sync in the receiver settings resolved the issue.
I took a gamers perspective to sorting this, anything in the signal line that delays the video input is bad. IMO it's video input lag. The 3700 chokes on high bandwidth video data. These things are designed by old school AV engineers who don't have the same critical specification parameters that gamers are looking for.
I noticed that lip sync was improved by switching my ATV to 4:2:0 or the reciever output to "standard" instead of enhanced or 4k/8k.
Then I noticed that the receivers video processing is set to "auto"...well if game mode reduces video input lag...then entirely bypassing any video processing might work? So I set the reciever to bypass.
The delay has gone to all intents and purposes - in a blind test my wife can notice the lag when recievers video processing is set to auto and can't notice it when video processing is bypassed. That is for all apps on the ATV.
The receivers input lag is really, really bad in anything other than game or bypass mode - and even then only the latter seems to cure the problem entirely.
If these engineers want to add heavy processing at every stage of the signal pathway, (this goes for audio as well) whether it's in the reciever or TV - they need to find a reliable way to make the devices communicate to each other what those processing delays are - for example - if I enable truemotion - the video lag gets a little worse again. This means the TV would have to do a some kind o handshake with the reciever everytime you changed picture mode, app or input...which I doubt it does and it would be non-trivial to implement because of all the lag when switching apps or inputs, to get the delay measurement and route that back to the reciever. That's probably 250ms added to opening each app or change of video format. This is a case of features rapidly multiplying without any FMEA being done.
Further, even if the TV is doing Dynamic Lip Sync, I'm definitely sure that the crappy processors on board the Denon can't do it.
Moral of the story, processing across multiple devices is nasty and shouldn't be done, 24/25fps video needs to fucking die so we don't have all this truemotion stupidity and general motion handling needs to be hardware focussed not processing focussed.
The other way to resolve this would be for Sony to get back into the AVR game and make something that really works with current TVs.
I noticed that lip sync was improved by switching my ATV to 4:2:0 or the reciever output to "standard" instead of enhanced or 4k/8k.
Then I noticed that the receivers video processing is set to "auto"...well if game mode reduces video input lag...then entirely bypassing any video processing might work? So I set the reciever to bypass.
The delay has gone to all intents and purposes - in a blind test my wife can notice the lag when recievers video processing is set to auto and can't notice it when video processing is bypassed. That is for all apps on the ATV.
The receivers input lag is really, really bad in anything other than game or bypass mode - and even then only the latter seems to cure the problem entirely.
If these engineers want to add heavy processing at every stage of the signal pathway, (this goes for audio as well) whether it's in the reciever or TV - they need to find a reliable way to make the devices communicate to each other what those processing delays are - for example - if I enable truemotion - the video lag gets a little worse again. This means the TV would have to do a some kind o handshake with the reciever everytime you changed picture mode, app or input...which I doubt it does and it would be non-trivial to implement because of all the lag when switching apps or inputs, to get the delay measurement and route that back to the reciever. That's probably 250ms added to opening each app or change of video format. This is a case of features rapidly multiplying without any FMEA being done.
Further, even if the TV is doing Dynamic Lip Sync, I'm definitely sure that the crappy processors on board the Denon can't do it.
Moral of the story, processing across multiple devices is nasty and shouldn't be done, 24/25fps video needs to fucking die so we don't have all this truemotion stupidity and general motion handling needs to be hardware focussed not processing focussed.
The other way to resolve this would be for Sony to get back into the AVR game and make something that really works with current TVs.
Last edited:
To add, it now works well enough that I've set the HDMI back to enhanced and the ATV back to 4:2:2 and Match Content.
Something is janky with the Denons video processing and it doesn't offset the audio in relation to it's own internal video processing lag - would love to see if someone can confirm it with something more verifiable than my "wife test" and a camera based lag app.
Setting video to bypass means that flaw is minimised to the point of being acceptable - the menus are just more of a pain in the ass to navigate now.
Something is janky with the Denons video processing and it doesn't offset the audio in relation to it's own internal video processing lag - would love to see if someone can confirm it with something more verifiable than my "wife test" and a camera based lag app.
Setting video to bypass means that flaw is minimised to the point of being acceptable - the menus are just more of a pain in the ass to navigate now.
Has anyone come up with a long term fix here? Running a LG C2/Denon 3800. New to this thread but having the same issue as everyone else, and have tried the same troubleshooting as everyone else. Here’s what I found works best for me:
1. Keep ATV4k match On/On
2. Denon at Enhanced 4k
3. Denon at Game Mode (bypass works better but I cant stand not seeing my volume display)
4. Denon HDMI Control On
5. Denon ARC off
6. Denon TV Switching off
7. Denon Auto LipSync On with value of 0-15ms depending on app
8. LG CEC set to off (i also get annoying input switching issue when its on)
9. LG SmoothMotion off yields best result but sometimes I turn it on for de-juddering
I feel like theres no perfect solution here, but for some reason I don’t recall having any issues with my 2700h.
1. Keep ATV4k match On/On
2. Denon at Enhanced 4k
3. Denon at Game Mode (bypass works better but I cant stand not seeing my volume display)
4. Denon HDMI Control On
5. Denon ARC off
6. Denon TV Switching off
7. Denon Auto LipSync On with value of 0-15ms depending on app
8. LG CEC set to off (i also get annoying input switching issue when its on)
9. LG SmoothMotion off yields best result but sometimes I turn it on for de-juddering
I feel like theres no perfect solution here, but for some reason I don’t recall having any issues with my 2700h.
IDK that it is specific to Denon. It's more of an Apple TV issue when Match Frame is on. I've tried Denon, Marantz, and now Sony. (My TV and receiver is Sony now.) The only way to use Match Frame with no lip-sync issue is to have the Apple TV connected directly to the tv. If its ever moved to behind the receiver, match frame brings lip-sync issues.
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