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In the last three pages, forgive me if someone has already suggested you politely ask them to perhaps spend an hour looking through the ASR website?
This vid is a good primer for new and existing members to test their ability to detect distortion and at what level they can really notice it. If you want to start a new thread “Distortion threshold testing” with this video I will make it a sticky and our members can add more audio/video distortion tests methods. This question of “when does distortion become audible to the human ear?” Is asked here constantly. This could serve as a method of providing an answer. Great post!For self-insight. Ask them how much and when they hear the difference. Then they get to test:
Blind Testing a 1 dB Level Difference
Discover the smallest difference in level (dB) you can reliably hear.www.audiocheck.net
How Much Distortion Can you Hear?
An interesting test probably posted before although it didn't come up in a search. Also try difference sources ie ear phones vs speakers.audiosciencereview.com
'Religion" you are not going to change. You are describing folks who "believe" with a basis that was not even completely valid in the day. We have the same on the flip side where some believe what is available today is all the same and perfect. It is a "religious " belief with little more footing than the former.Agree mate, however in this case these are online associates... this is the kind of comments I mean for example;
As mentioned, I've provided this particular person with detailed measurements and data sheets for Purifi modules and amps using same, yet was dismissed as "marketing speak" and "meaningless graphs".
I'd like to enlighten some of these people so they can see the light like many of us have here.
I guess one can take a horse to water but can't make it drink.
JSmith
Just what I needed to jog my mind. I do not know whether to thank or curse you for the video. Excellent discussion! Provocative!A while ago i saw this interesting episode from the Closer to Truth series about belief systems and how they are formed, it explains quite nicely why it's so difficult to break existing belief patterns and how we can still try to change people's perceptions to more rational viewpoints. You may find it interesting to check out:
Thanks for the suggestion itself, But you see the link in my post? It is DamianW who posted that Video so then it his tread that should sticky.This vid is a good primer for new and existing members to test their ability to detect distortion and at what level they can really notice it. If you want to start a new thread “Distortion threshold testing” with this video I will make it a sticky and our members can add more audio/video distortion tests methods. This question of “when does distortion become audible to the human ear?” Is asked here constantly. This could serve as a method of providing an answer. Great post!
Discussing this now with him via PM. Thank you for your assistance.Thanks for the suggestion itself, But you see the link in my post? It is DamianW who posted that Video so then it his tread that should sticky.
How Much Distortion Can you Hear?
An interesting test probably posted before although it didn't come up in a search. Also try difference sources ie ear phones vs speakers.audiosciencereview.com
This one is good and should also be included (I have been tipped by others at ASR so I can not take credit for highlighting this in itself either, but it is good).
Blind Testing a 1 dB Level Difference
Discover the smallest difference in level (dB) you can reliably hear.www.audiocheck.net
Did you make him happy by selling him your cable?It is a hopeless endeavor I believe.
I once invited a friend who was complaining about his small system not sounding so good and was ready to go on an irrational (imho) spending spree to listen to a decently room-equalized LS 50 pair plus subwoofer. While he readily admitted it sounded much better than his system, he wasn't paying attention to my tentative explanation of room effect and EQ. I could see his eyes scouting the system back and forth...
Suddenly, he went "Aha! You aren't telling me everything!" and pointed to my speaker wire which happened to be blue and look fancy. "THIS must be the trick" he exclaimed.
Turns out I had not purchased those blue and expensive-looking speaker cables. They had come free with a sub 200 EUR no-name amplifier...
At that point, I surrendered...
Which $300 DAC do you suggest? I tried three with almost beyond belief fantastic specs and was disappointed, Love my $109 DAC. I have only heard one $3000 DAC and it sounded no better than my 20 year old Wolfson. Clear signature. I would like to spend time with an R2R DAC, but the price for curiosity is too steep and my cheap one does not have the objectionable to me "glare".Since logic and science won't work with them, unfortunately all you are left with is trickery. You'd have to be like Socrates, pretend that you don't know what is going on and are suprised by your latest findings. This will work of course only if they don't know what you already believe about all this (which is not the case here from what I understand). You ask for their help to bring back law and order to your audiophile life.
It's important and the only way imo, that they discover the 'truth' at their own place and with their own audio system, otherwise they will find reason to object to anything they don't like and is presented to them by other people. I'd begin with the simple mp3 vs hi-res comparison, maybe they haven't given much thought on that, and it's likely they are biased that they can easily tell the difference. If they can't tell the difference, their belief system just got a tiny crack. From there, a $300 dac against their audiophile grade $5000 dac on a blind test. Small things like that I guess.
If these simple challenges don't have any effect at all, I wouldn't bother anymore, they don't want to be 'saved' and you should let them enjoy their audio journey, beside some of them spending money they don't have on things they don't need (G. Carlin ftw), they have their share of fun and some delightful moments along the way, so let them be.
So would you, as an apostate, not liked to have gotten out sooner?Personally, I was once in this camp and wish most certainly that I could have better educated myself sooner.
It doesn't matter which dac, pick one from the review index that is recommended. The 'old guys' believe a lot of things, almost all of them will tell you about the synergy of the system, between the amp, the dac, the cables... right, same cables that can tame the bass and bring forth midrange. At any case, all these debates would have been unnecessary if the audiophiles were more open to blind/controlled tests with their audio systems, just to prove to the so called objectivist that they are wrong. Not seeing a lot of those though.Trickery will only make them mad. If they have "belief", they will not take kindly to trickery.
A
Which $300 DAC do you suggest? I tried three with almost beyond belief fantastic specs and was disappointed, Love my $109 DAC. I have only heard one $3000 DAC and it sounded no better than my 20 year old Wolfson. Clear signature. I would like to spend time with an R2R DAC, but the price for curiosity is too steep and my cheap one does not have the objectionable to me "glare".
A lot of people make a living off the market based on color glossy reviews, massive profit margins and "true believers".
Carpet baggers have to eat too you know.
This thread is also making the "belief" the old guys are wrong just because the conventional measurements say the new stuff is better. Specs better, no question, but is it better to trick your brain into believe it is music? Watch your own preconceived bias. The only time I was almost able to close my eyes and believe what I was hearing was real was all analog. A 2-teack Revox recording, 2 mic, in the same room of an upright bass. Mark Levenson amps and preamp, first gen B&W 801's. It really was almost real. No digital in sight. No .000-naught specs anywhere. A pair of Purifi modules for $1000 and a Topping L30 will on the bench blow the doors off a ML 23 and 26, but does it convince your brain? ( I hope so as I can't afford Levenson)
Is it just me, or when people pull the "audiologist", "55 years in audio" (or wife, or musician) card do you smell BS? I mean, after 55 years in audio, there's no way someone can hear above 9000Hz. And audiologists use instruments, not their ears.No, not measured but so obvious that two people, one and audiologist, and I have spent 55 years in audio agreed our independent experience. Returned to 4TC and normal response restored, and the same for other cables.
8TC is Litz I believe. Lengths were 3m. Speaker about 4,5 ohms.