The best way to bring audio enthusiasts from the dark side and see the light?

[JSmith]

So, recently I have had discussions with old forums mates who are unfortunately stuck in their ways and still rely old ideas, like class A design amps are the only way to go for ultimate audio quality, a chigher price means "better", "high-end" can't ever be cheap, class D is horrible and could never match the power of class A, class D could never handle 2ohm loads etc.

I have provided some of these people with detailed information about how those can generally be misconceptions, data sheets on Purifi/Hypex modules, measurements and examples of well implemented modules etc. Some have digested this information and are interested in learning more, however some still refer to their ears being the panacea and consider the information "meaningless graphs" even though they have an understanding of what they are seeing. To me this is very "head in the sand" and "get off my lawn" type of attitude.

I'm interested to discuss how others have approached this and what they feel is the best way to assist an audio enthusiast to understand that many of their pre-conceptions about audio are misleading or simply outright factually incorrect, without the person feeling their knowledge and experience is threatened. Rather, to add to their experience and knowledge by not ignoring positive developments in the audio industry.


JSmith

 

[voodooless]

The only thing that works will be the thing they are used to: being tricked!

So trick them, let them think they hear one thing, while in reality they are not. Watch them exult in audiophile prose, and then reveal what they have been really hearing.

If that does not peak interest, I guess it’s a lost cause.

 

[JSmith]

The only thing that works will be the thing they are used to: being tricked!

Agree mate, however in this case these are online associates... this is the kind of comments I mean for example;

My system is all Class "A" and fully balanced... it kills your class "D" and your puny Purifi modules.

As mentioned, I've provided this particular person with detailed measurements and data sheets for Purifi modules and amps using same, yet was dismissed as "marketing speak" and "meaningless graphs".

I'd like to enlighten some of these people so they can see the light like many of us have here.

I guess one can take a horse to water but can't make it drink.


JSmith

 

[pseudoid]

An evangelist that is trying to convince "old forums mates" to enjoy the music that they enjoy already in other ways?
They may seek your help but until such time >> I've heard it been called the "Spinach Syndrome": Similar to forcing a kid to eat spinach, which s/he starts hating even more and will never eat it again << EVEN if it is nutritional for him/her.
The big question lies with the fact that maybe Class D (or wutevr you are trying to push on to them) is not to their likes.
Could this be like trying to convert a Christian to say [ummmm...] Hindu or sumsuch?

 

[litemotiv]

dismissed as "marketing speak" and "meaningless graphs

Unfortunately you can't combat cognitive dissonance with reason.

 

[JSmith]

An evangelist that is trying to convince "old forums mates" to enjoy the music that they enjoy already in other ways?

Nah, not suggesting the sell all their nice gear and replace it, far from that.

More so talking general details about products and some dismissing information based on outdated or incorrect "truths".

"Spinach Syndrome"

Fair point.

Unfortunately you can't combat cognitive dissonance with reason.

Yes, it certainly appears that is often the case.


JSmith

 

[radix]

It's like recovery. You can't force someone to change, they have to at least want help.

 

[DSJR]

I'm not sure you can help them - I couldn't either and have tried in recent times to live and let live.

You see, these people need to be actually fooled in a practical dem for the walls to come crashing down and even then, some may hold out. Just pointing them to a collection of, to them, pretty graphs and pictures won't help at all and you like me will be accused of listening to the graphs rather than the music - actually, it's them raving about their vintage tech where the 'rest of us' just take the tech and good specs for granted and enjoy the music instead - don't we?

 

[litemotiv]

Yes, it certainly appears that is often the case.

The problem is that these people are already heavily invested in a certain belief, financially, emotionally, socially. Too much depends on it for them to keep believing what they already do, the loss feels greater to them than the potential gain. It would require them to acknowledge that the foundations of what made them feel good for many years might be weak, and that's too much to handle for a lot of people.

You see, these people need to be actually fooled in a practical dem for the walls to come crashing down and even then, some may hold out.

That's the only way yes, just like cold turkey rehab...

 

[pseudoid]

You can't force someone to change

Could there be an exception to this rule?
Like when you can show them that the dang cap is leaking and needs a change and/or a recap?

 

[litemotiv]

A while ago i saw this interesting episode from the Closer to Truth series about belief systems and how they are formed, it explains quite nicely why it's so difficult to break existing belief patterns and how we can still try to change people's perceptions to more rational viewpoints. You may find it interesting to check out:

 

[LTig]

Show them a few optical illusions, and then ask, that now, when they know they cannot trust their eyes, why they still think they can trust other senses like their ears.

 

[JSmith]

Show them a few optical illusions, and then ask, that now, when they know they cannot trust their eyes, why they still think they can trust other senses like their ears.

I like this approach, thanks for the input.

You may find it interesting to check out

Cheers, I will watch it in full when at home.


JSmith

 

[ZolaIII]

Well then step into the light yourself. Seams they ware right (most part) demanding full phase (not that I think traditional push - pull class AB is not enough) which class G-H are and that need to be distinguished from class D.
Recently I whose surprised to found how class G is actually (couple of years) older than first GREC (MOSFET) amplifiers. Thing is we learn as long as we live and class is not what truly defines the product but design efforts put into it. In that regard we had a design gem's in every era (1950's passive tube tone EQ's, 1970's class G, 1980's MOSFET one's... 2020's class G-H SoM's). I really don't know an outstanding one (to my better knowledge) which really whose class D.
In the end if someone loves something I can't argue with that.

 

[JSmith]

class is not what truly defines the product but design efforts put into it

Correct, however in 2022 class a amps are unnecessary, inefficient and use too much power. From a modern environmental perspective they are poor. I agree topology class is irrelevant when it comes to performance, if the amp is well designed and implemented, that is not the discussion here.

I wouldn't ever say to someone get rid of your class a it's crap, not at all, that would be too far. But I would say don't spend $50K on one when upgrading/replacing when they could get a Benchmark for $5K or some nice Purifi based mono-blocks for example.



JSmith

 

[DanielT]

Are they stingy people? Do they have a lot or a little money? Money can usually trigger thoughts, that is:
But why spend a lot of money if you still do not hear any difference?

By the way, it can be a problem, because if you have spent a lot of money on your Hifi then you make sure it sounds good. Even if it means imagining. Otherwise, you have thrown the money in the lake and appear a little stupid.

On second thought, do not mention this with money. They might get damn pissed.

 

[JSmith]

Are they stingy people?

Nah, they live comfortably.

But why spend a lot of money if you still do not hear any difference?

Exactly my point and the ensuing discussion.

By the way, it can be a problem, because if you have spent a lot of money on your Hifi then you make sure it sounds good.

Quite true and this particular person has a great (albeit very expensive) system, which likely sounds great. This person would consider a $50K amp an upgrade and a $5K amp a downgrade, regardless of any measurements at this stage.


JSmith

 

[DanielT]

Nah, they live comfortably.

Exactly my point and the ensuing discussion.

Quite true and this particular person has a great (albeit very expensive) system, which likely sounds great. This person would consider a $50K amp an upgrade and a $5K amp a downgrade, regardless of any measurements at this stage.


JSmith

Maybe they say that class D is not good enough due to distortion in the highest frequencies? On the one hand, you can then show that there is now good class D amplifiers that can handle it well, and on the other hand, pointing out in terms of age, it is not a practical problem (I assume they are middle-aged .. possibly + ditto)?.They still do not hear such high frequencies anymore. Though, hm then maybe they get even more pissed off if you point out how we humans work? Ears, audibility and aging that is.

 

[litemotiv]

Do they have a lot or a little money? Money can usually trigger thoughts, that is:
But why spend a lot of money if you still do not hear any difference?

This is an interesting point. I was on a more subjective hifi forum for a while and was surprised to learn there were a reasonable number of people there who had put themselves into debt to finance their audio systems. It appears that a decent percentage of subjective hifi enthousiast are so attached to the idea that there is a perfect hifi experience out there, that they are willing to sacrifice other parts of their lives and livelihoods to achieve it.

And just like South Park's Magic Dragon this perfect experience is always one step out of reach. They invest a large sum, thinking they will reach audio Nirvana, and then find out it's 99% there but not completely. So they invest more, and each step will be more expensive and have larger diminishing returns.

So it appears that an addictive pattern certainly plays a role, which likely contributes to being less able to give up certain circles of thought.

 

[Blumlein 88]

I was one of those people for a long time, and should have known better. How did that happen? When I first put together a little music system I enjoyed I eventually ran into other music lovers. They had better sounding systems than I did. Now I know it was mostly because they had spent more money on bigger and more expensive speakers, but all I knew then was listening to their gear and mine, theirs was better. Maybe a little psychology they had infected me too.

Now if someone does something better than you or has something better than you it is only natural to think they know something you don't. So you listen to them. You emulate them and as inefficient as it was, my system started getting better. And again the psychology I was making it better is part of it. So I learned and experienced the benefits of some very wrong headed ideas. My experience however was boy this stuff is better. You are not going to be able to rationally talk someone out of those experiences.

Now I was a curious person who not only wants things to satisfy me, but I want to know why and how. Many people reach a point where it works and that is all they know and all they care about.

Some accidents started me to questioning some of this. At one time I had several audiophile friends we got together on a regular basis and if someone got new gear we took it around to try it out show it off. Except for speakers. Once I had a new DAC, and took it to a gathering where someone had a device that could switch multiple digital inputs and had multiple digital outputs So we could just swap a DAC and flip the source on the preamp. We listened to the old unit, and then we listened to the new unit. We all liked the new unit and all had similar descriptions about why it was better. When I went to disconnect my DAC at the end of the evening, I noticed we had never swapped the preamp. We had listened to the old DAC the whole time. A little experience of unease I think for all of us. I won't detail more, but a few experiences like that eventually got me out of the bubble of audiophilia and questioning what was really important.

So put together a highly impressive super sounding system, do it for 20% of what your buddies spend, and they'll ask you questions.

Or as someone said trick them. If they have even a little interest doing some simple blind comparisons or even tricking them trying out some gear they can experience how much of the difference they hear is in their mind and not the sound. It is such experiences that will do the trick that hours of rational explaining won't do, which such explaining will mostly irritate them and push them away.

Finally if they just don't have any interest you are not going to get anywhere. Live and let live. Someone has to have a question to accept an answer. An answer without a question in that person's mind means nothing.