The best way to bring audio enthusiasts from the dark side and see the light?

[DavidEdwinAston]

In the last three pages, forgive me if someone has already suggested you politely ask them to perhaps spend an hour looking through the ASR website?

 

[DavidEdwinAston]

Finding this site was certainly my Damascene moment!

 

[AdamG]

For self-insight. Ask them how much and when they hear the difference. Then they get to test:

Blind Testing a 1 dB Level Difference

Discover the smallest difference in level (dB) you can reliably hear.

www.audiocheck.net

How Much Distortion Can you Hear?

An interesting test probably posted before although it didn't come up in a search. Also try difference sources ie ear phones vs speakers.

audiosciencereview.com

This vid is a good primer for new and existing members to test their ability to detect distortion and at what level they can really notice it. If you want to start a new thread “Distortion threshold testing” with this video I will make it a sticky and our members can add more audio/video distortion tests methods. This question of “when does distortion become audible to the human ear?” Is asked here constantly. This could serve as a method of providing an answer. Great post!

 

[PierreV]

It is a hopeless endeavor I believe.

I once invited a friend who was complaining about his small system not sounding so good and was ready to go on an irrational (imho) spending spree to listen to a decently room-equalized LS 50 pair plus subwoofer. While he readily admitted it sounded much better than his system, he wasn't paying attention to my tentative explanation of room effect and EQ. I could see his eyes scouting the system back and forth...

Suddenly, he went "Aha! You aren't telling me everything!" and pointed to my speaker wire which happened to be blue and look fancy. "THIS must be the trick" he exclaimed.

Turns out I had not purchased those blue and expensive-looking speaker cables. They had come free with a sub 200 EUR no-name amplifier...

At that point, I surrendered...

 

[CedarX]

Lost battle! You can bring the evidences… but if the other side has a strong belief system for that matter and the evidences don’t fit, they are dismissed right away as irrelevant.
What can be done is to shame the manufacturers for their BS claims. This may trigger two things: the manufacturer gets back to work and fixes it’s issues to everybody’s benefit, or they start another BS explanation thread, usually not as convincing, which may be enough to destabilize ‘some’ of the strong audiophile beliefs.
I think ASR is on the right track!

 

[tvrgeek]

Agree mate, however in this case these are online associates... this is the kind of comments I mean for example;

As mentioned, I've provided this particular person with detailed measurements and data sheets for Purifi modules and amps using same, yet was dismissed as "marketing speak" and "meaningless graphs".

I'd like to enlighten some of these people so they can see the light like many of us have here.

I guess one can take a horse to water but can't make it drink.


JSmith

'Religion" you are not going to change. You are describing folks who "believe" with a basis that was not even completely valid in the day. We have the same on the flip side where some believe what is available today is all the same and perfect. It is a "religious " belief with little more footing than the former.

I could not afford class A, but have built amps and understand the issues ( and how to overcome them) I heard the first couple generations of class D, and formed a very quick bias to dismiss them at hand as they were terrible. Much like the first bi-polar amps compared to the best of the tubes. Face it, an old Lux or Mac was darn good compared to the first transistors. But it changed. Now I have heard a couple class D and did not detect any character, though not a long enough listen. First CD's were terrible, but they got far better fast and I sold my records so I could play my music, not play with my music.

So if they care about "religion", they will not change as that is what is important to them. There is nothing rational about faith. If they care about sound, all they need is to be exposed. Slick sheets are not sound and there is so much total BS being advertised, dismissing your charts is a reasonable bias.

For those who claim only class D can be super clean, do notice the lowest distortion ( by the limited measures available) Amir has measured is a class AB amplifier. You are not going to drag a set of Cary OTL blocks from anyone and F5 owners dismiss any numbers ( they are actually very good) as whatever the distortion they make, they love. Point being, we still can't quantify what our brains like. SNAID is only half the story.

Do not dismiss the middle ground. Those that care for sound first, are open to progress, but know what we hear and it does not exactly track with limited measures. I know several amplifier measures I would like to see included and test if they track user perceptions better than THD below our threshold of hearing. I'll give you a parallel: Kodac vs Fugi vs digital. All different. Each has their following, though the Kodac fans are screwed I guess.

I may, waffle, waffle, break down and buy a class D amp, though I hear nothing wrong with my current AB MOSFET. Only living with one of the newest Purifi amps will I be fully convinced, and then it may be a preference for some sorts of distortion. Masking? We just do not fully understand what tells our brain what we hear is musical or not and it differs person to person. I keep trying to tell myself, if I don't like the new amp, I can sell it on and not loose too much to make the wife mad. If I do like it, I can easily explain I got my money from the old one.
Cheap? Yea my pension went up half as much as inflation this year, last year, the year before...

Hypothesis: If we have electronics producing distortion that is below our theoretical limit of hearing, are in an environment with some level of ambient noise, then is a higher noise floor that would swamp any low level distortions a sonic advantage?

If so, where should we add it?
If so, should it relate to the ambient noise, or to the signal?
If so, should the floor rise closer to the ambient levels?
Does this change the equations between headphones and speakers? Drastically different ambient levels.
How far below the ambient noise can we detect sounds? 3? 6 dB? And in what bands? If we have noise above the threshold of hearing, but signal below that, can we detect it? I believe so by experience, not by measured test just based on what analysists can hear on a trunk line.

Hypothesis:
We have a threshold where distortions become objectionable. Not detectable, objectionable.

It is additive, so it depends on the source and every piece in the chain?
Is that threshold close to where our playback equipment just pushes over, or not?

Hypothesis:
The distortion created by different pieces of the chain are perceived differently

Why do speakers with .5% THD not send us screaming from the room but an amplifier will?
Why does the noise on records not bother many, yet -65 dB is totally unacceptable in electronics?
Why is the difference between a DAC measuring SNAID 87 and 115 audible?
Why was a DAC measuring 121 sounding harsher than the 115?
Why is an amplifier with 10 times the distortion of all the DACs sound perfectly acceptable and it not mask the DACs completely?
Do not tell me this is not true, not going there,. That is "religion"

Hypothesis: ( as suggested my many ABX tests)
Why do most listeners prefer a slightly more distorted sound?

If so, What distortions and at what levels?
If so, is it a comfort zone, familiar, learned, or actual brain preference?

Hypothesis:
The threshold of "bother" is variable

If so, is it Cultural?
Age?
Gender?
Trained?
Just plain human diversity?
A judgment on cost? ( Hear it but not worth paying for)

If interested in the objective measurement and the interpretation of said to the relationship of subjective preference, these are questions to be asked, not dismissed. To dismiss without proper analysis is a "religious belief"

 

[TLEDDY]

A while ago i saw this interesting episode from the Closer to Truth series about belief systems and how they are formed, it explains quite nicely why it's so difficult to break existing belief patterns and how we can still try to change people's perceptions to more rational viewpoints. You may find it interesting to check out:

Just what I needed to jog my mind. I do not know whether to thank or curse you for the video. Excellent discussion! Provocative!

Tillman

 

[DanielT]

This vid is a good primer for new and existing members to test their ability to detect distortion and at what level they can really notice it. If you want to start a new thread “Distortion threshold testing” with this video I will make it a sticky and our members can add more audio/video distortion tests methods. This question of “when does distortion become audible to the human ear?” Is asked here constantly. This could serve as a method of providing an answer. Great post!

Thanks for the suggestion itself, But you see the link in my post? It is DamianW who posted that Video so then it his tread that should sticky.

How Much Distortion Can you Hear?

An interesting test probably posted before although it didn't come up in a search. Also try difference sources ie ear phones vs speakers.

audiosciencereview.com

This one is good and should also be included (I have been tipped by others at ASR so I can not take credit for highlighting this in itself either, but it is good).

Blind Testing a 1 dB Level Difference

Discover the smallest difference in level (dB) you can reliably hear.

www.audiocheck.net

 

[AdamG]

Thanks for the suggestion itself, But you see the link in my post? It is DamianW who posted that Video so then it his tread that should sticky.

How Much Distortion Can you Hear?

An interesting test probably posted before although it didn't come up in a search. Also try difference sources ie ear phones vs speakers.

audiosciencereview.com

This one is good and should also be included (I have been tipped by others at ASR so I can not take credit for highlighting this in itself either, but it is good).

Blind Testing a 1 dB Level Difference

Discover the smallest difference in level (dB) you can reliably hear.

www.audiocheck.net

Discussing this now with him via PM. Thank you for your assistance.

 

[levimax]

I don't think it is a good idea to even try until the other person is ready .... it is like telling a kid there is no Santa Claus. If you put together a system and someone listens to it and likes the sound and starts asking you questions about it then you can explain why you chose this or that.

 

[Joe Smith]

Ultimately, some people don't want to change and want to hold onto their past beliefs at all costs (alas, true of so many things in the world other than this reasonably-harmless hobby). So some people just aren't worth repeated effort, because it would be less enjoyable for them to change/try something new than the pleasure they get from holding onto their longstanding beliefs (and not having to admit that maybe they were wrong).

Also, the more time and money one has sunk into a system probably increases exponentially that person's resistance to any "cheaper/but sounds really good" paths. The answer then on hearing a really good but cheaper system will then normally be "Yeah, well, that's probably fine for you, but..."

 

[Triliza]

Since logic and science won't work with them, unfortunately all you are left with is trickery. You'd have to be like Socrates, pretend that you don't know what is going on and are suprised by your latest findings. This will work of course only if they don't know what you already believe about all this (which is not the case here from what I understand). You ask for their help to bring back law and order to your audiophile life.

It's important and the only way imo, that they discover the 'truth' at their own place and with their own audio system, otherwise they will find reason to object to anything they don't like and is presented to them by other people. I'd begin with the simple mp3 vs hi-res comparison, maybe they haven't given much thought on that, and it's likely they are biased that they can easily tell the difference. If they can't tell the difference, their belief system just got a tiny crack. From there, a $300 dac against their audiophile grade $5000 dac on a blind test. Small things like that I guess.

If these simple challenges don't have any effect at all, I wouldn't bother anymore, they don't want to be 'saved' and you should let them enjoy their audio journey, beside some of them spending money they don't have on things they don't need (G. Carlin ftw), they have their share of fun and some delightful moments along the way, so let them be.

 

[LTig]

It is a hopeless endeavor I believe.

I once invited a friend who was complaining about his small system not sounding so good and was ready to go on an irrational (imho) spending spree to listen to a decently room-equalized LS 50 pair plus subwoofer. While he readily admitted it sounded much better than his system, he wasn't paying attention to my tentative explanation of room effect and EQ. I could see his eyes scouting the system back and forth...

Suddenly, he went "Aha! You aren't telling me everything!" and pointed to my speaker wire which happened to be blue and look fancy. "THIS must be the trick" he exclaimed.

Turns out I had not purchased those blue and expensive-looking speaker cables. They had come free with a sub 200 EUR no-name amplifier...

At that point, I surrendered...

Did you make him happy by selling him your cable?

 

[ahofer]

My conversion started with the 1987 amplifier blind test in Stereo Review. But it was quite a while before I got to the point of really behaving like DAC-to-speaker-terminals is a well-solved problem (I have seen no evidence that it is not, and plenty that it is).

Something cracks open the door, and then the remaining evidence seeps in through the opening.

 

[tvrgeek]

Trickery will only make them mad. If they have "belief", they will not take kindly to trickery.
A

Since logic and science won't work with them, unfortunately all you are left with is trickery. You'd have to be like Socrates, pretend that you don't know what is going on and are suprised by your latest findings. This will work of course only if they don't know what you already believe about all this (which is not the case here from what I understand). You ask for their help to bring back law and order to your audiophile life.

It's important and the only way imo, that they discover the 'truth' at their own place and with their own audio system, otherwise they will find reason to object to anything they don't like and is presented to them by other people. I'd begin with the simple mp3 vs hi-res comparison, maybe they haven't given much thought on that, and it's likely they are biased that they can easily tell the difference. If they can't tell the difference, their belief system just got a tiny crack. From there, a $300 dac against their audiophile grade $5000 dac on a blind test. Small things like that I guess.

If these simple challenges don't have any effect at all, I wouldn't bother anymore, they don't want to be 'saved' and you should let them enjoy their audio journey, beside some of them spending money they don't have on things they don't need (G. Carlin ftw), they have their share of fun and some delightful moments along the way, so let them be.

Which $300 DAC do you suggest? I tried three with almost beyond belief fantastic specs and was disappointed, Love my $109 DAC. I have only heard one $3000 DAC and it sounded no better than my 20 year old Wolfson. Clear signature. I would like to spend time with an R2R DAC, but the price for curiosity is too steep and my cheap one does not have the objectionable to me "glare".

A lot of people make a living off the market based on color glossy reviews, massive profit margins and "true believers".
Carpet baggers have to eat too you know.

This thread is also making the "belief" the old guys are wrong just because the conventional measurements say the new stuff is better. Specs better, no question, but is it better to trick your brain into believe it is music? Watch your own preconceived bias. The only time I was almost able to close my eyes and believe what I was hearing was real was all analog. A 2-teack Revox recording, 2 mic, in the same room of an upright bass. Mark Levenson amps and preamp, first gen B&W 801's. It really was almost real. No digital in sight. No .000-naught specs anywhere. A pair of Purifi modules for $1000 and a Topping L30 will on the bench blow the doors off a ML 23 and 26, but does it convince your brain? ( I hope so as I can't afford Levenson)

 

[Midwest Blade]

Live and let live.

Not much to be said or done. They are free to believe in what they believe and invest in what they think is the best.

Personally, I was once in this camp and wish most certainly that I could have better educated myself sooner.

 

[voodooless]

Personally, I was once in this camp and wish most certainly that I could have better educated myself sooner.

So would you, as an apostate, not liked to have gotten out sooner?

 

[_Dekker]

How many of you did the tests in post #22?
If you believe you have golden ears then of course you stand above these tests and
even distrust them.
It's a bit like everybody thinks he is the best driver in the world. Or at least could be.
My believe is that the person in question should know he is just a human like everybody else with his own limitations.
Not having awareness of these limitations results in a detachment from reality in both stuff you buy and stuff you talk about.

 

[Triliza]

Trickery will only make them mad. If they have "belief", they will not take kindly to trickery.
A

Which $300 DAC do you suggest? I tried three with almost beyond belief fantastic specs and was disappointed, Love my $109 DAC. I have only heard one $3000 DAC and it sounded no better than my 20 year old Wolfson. Clear signature. I would like to spend time with an R2R DAC, but the price for curiosity is too steep and my cheap one does not have the objectionable to me "glare".

A lot of people make a living off the market based on color glossy reviews, massive profit margins and "true believers".
Carpet baggers have to eat too you know.

This thread is also making the "belief" the old guys are wrong just because the conventional measurements say the new stuff is better. Specs better, no question, but is it better to trick your brain into believe it is music? Watch your own preconceived bias. The only time I was almost able to close my eyes and believe what I was hearing was real was all analog. A 2-teack Revox recording, 2 mic, in the same room of an upright bass. Mark Levenson amps and preamp, first gen B&W 801's. It really was almost real. No digital in sight. No .000-naught specs anywhere. A pair of Purifi modules for $1000 and a Topping L30 will on the bench blow the doors off a ML 23 and 26, but does it convince your brain? ( I hope so as I can't afford Levenson)

It doesn't matter which dac, pick one from the review index that is recommended. The 'old guys' believe a lot of things, almost all of them will tell you about the synergy of the system, between the amp, the dac, the cables... right, same cables that can tame the bass and bring forth midrange. At any case, all these debates would have been unnecessary if the audiophiles were more open to blind/controlled tests with their audio systems, just to prove to the so called objectivist that they are wrong. Not seeing a lot of those though.

 

[ahofer]

I just got this in the Harbeth forum, when I asked if a guy had measured the high frequency loss he had experienced with Kimber Cable:

No, not measured but so obvious that two people, one and audiologist, and I have spent 55 years in audio agreed our independent experience. Returned to 4TC and normal response restored, and the same for other cables.
8TC is Litz I believe. Lengths were 3m. Speaker about 4,5 ohms.

Is it just me, or when people pull the "audiologist", "55 years in audio" (or wife, or musician) card do you smell BS? I mean, after 55 years in audio, there's no way someone can hear above 9000Hz. And audiologists use instruments, not their ears.