Are Affordable Class D Amps the Great Hope for Audio?

[Doodski]

I guess that shows how regional some things are; I don't see over-ears much at all, and especially I don't see them on younger people.

Jim

Red, blue, white, golden stuff and red on white is common. Some wear them as fashionable and glam showy stuff.

 

[threni]

I think inexpensive Class D amps are the future in general. Once all the dinosaurs die off who SWEAR class A sounds great because they can grill their kielbasa burger on the heat sinks, all that will be left will be Class D.

I don't care what class my amp is. I have an Asgard 3. Apparently it's Class A/B. I don't know what that means. It's like a modified class A. It gets very hot but so what? I don't care. It's a headphone amp - it's not going to be using that much power. Class D all seem very expensive and large. Why? Are they over complicated? Are they ever going to become less complicated? Do they sound better? I thought the Asgard 3 measured amazingly well - as do all manner of other very inexpensive headphone amps. So what does class D solve? Why would I - or this new idealised hypothetical teen we're all staking the future of hifi on - be interested in it?

 

[Doodski]

So what does class D solve?

Size, weight, less copper and capacitor.

 

[TheWalkman]

Size, weight, less copper and capacitor.

…and the real point of this thread: entry price.

 

[Doodski]

…and the real point of this thread: entry price.

They can be more tricky to design and layout but if done right are more than effective.

 

[TimF]

What technology developments of the 70's occurred that interested us? It certainly wasn't telephones although there was a time when all of a sudden you could expect to have a telephone in your dorm room. 1970's tech that interested me was 10 to 18 speed bicycles, aluminum frame backbacks and light weight tents, and the biggest of all which was under-appreciated at the time for its revolution was the Honda CB 750 introduced in 1969. What a piece of wonder technology for so little money--everything on it was done right and well. Right away though it established a nostalgia for old school English motorcycles. Right now, I have a hankering to have a couple well-made class A/AB amplifiers a because the innards look neat. There were a string of pioneers in class D tech and a string of okay products but most were on the expensive side, as an example the Esoteric A-10 amp. Could it be said that class D success was brought about by two very different sources: major tech electronics firms like Texas Instruments, and on the other hand the persistence of Bruno Putzey and his collaborators? I could be wrong, very wrong, but Bang and Olufsen took a big economic risk with their Icepower products. Their marketing team for that product must be congratulated....they really penetrated the OEM market. If I am wrong, please tell me. I think class D is a remarkable story.

 

[Philbo King]

Class D amps have surely reduced the amount of hernias suffered by bass players hauling their equipment.

But I don't know how much, if any, effect it might have on Gen X or millenials. Probably not much. I don't know of any who sit home and listen to music. Video games and streaming TV are more their thing.

 

[TheWalkman]

What technology developments of the 70's occurred that interested us? It certainly wasn't telephones although there was a time when all of a sudden you could expect to have a telephone in your dorm room. 1970's tech that interested me was 10 to 18 speed bicycles, aluminum frame backbacks and light weight tents, and the biggest of all which was under-appreciated at the time for its revolution was the Honda CB 750 introduced in 1969. What a piece of wonder technology for so little money--everything on it was done right and well. Right away though it established a nostalgia for old school motorcycles. Right now, I have a hankering to have a couple well-made class A/AB amplifiers because the innards look neat. There were a string of pioneers in class D tech and a string of okay products but most were on the expensive side. Could it be said that class D success was brought about by two very different sources: major tech electronics firms like Texas Instruments, and on the other hand the persistence of Bruno Putzey and his collaborators? I could be wrong, very wrong, but Bang and Olufsen took a big economic risk with their Icepower products. Their marketing team for that product must be congratulated....they really penetrated the OEM market. If I am wrong, please tell me. I think class D is a remarkable story.

Tim,

Right there with you with the exception of the Honda 750. It took me until my fifties to avoid the Moto bug and I now own several Hondas. To me, buying a Harley today is comparable to buying a tube amp. ( Sorry if I stepped on some toes there.) When I look back on Motos, I was really hooked as a 12 year old when my best friend got a Trail 70 for Christmas many decades ago. I then avoided them for forty five years until I went for a ride on a buddy’s spare bike and I bought one a week later. I digress…

B&O was always interesting to me. They were a a company who differentiated their products. A buddy in the 70’s had one of their turntables that was real eye candy in the day.

I haven‘t studied Ice Power amps closely, but it seems to me that they were one of the first, “serious” Class D offerings after early Lepai and the other toy amps got my attention.

With the introduction of Hypex and Purifi, it seems Ice Power is now last generation Class D technology.

My entire point with starting this thread is to ask if hifi is a dying hobby or can the low cost, class D amps create/ hook the next generation audiophiles, like the Trail 70 did for me with Motos.

 

[Ricardus]

…and the real point of this thread: entry price.

BAM.

 

[Timcognito]

What technology developments of the 70's occurred that interested us? It certainly wasn't telephones although there was a time when all of a sudden you could expect to have a telephone in your dorm room. 1970's tech that interested me was 10 to 18 speed bicycles, aluminum frame backbacks and light weight tents, and the biggest of all which was under-appreciated at the time for its revolution was the Honda CB 750 introduced in 1969. What a piece of wonder technology for so little money--everything on it was done right and well. Right away though it established a nostalgia for old school English motorcycles. Right now, I have a hankering to have a couple well-made class A/AB amplifiers a because the innards look neat. There were a string of pioneers in class D tech and a string of okay products but most were on the expensive side, as an example the Esoteric A-10 amp. Could it be said that class D success was brought about by two very different sources: major tech electronics firms like Texas Instruments, and on the other hand the persistence of Bruno Putzey and his collaborators? I could be wrong, very wrong, but Bang and Olufsen took a big economic risk with their Icepower products. Their marketing team for that product must be congratulated....they really penetrated the OEM market. If I am wrong, please tell me. I think class D is a remarkable story.

So strange that so much nostalgia and new products are around LPs and TTs.

I too was a motorcycle guy 1st was a Yamaha 125 Enduro, then a 250 Huskavarna which I pretty much gave up surfing to ride everyday. Also I got into the light weight backpacking stuff with the highlight being most of the John Muir trail from Tuolumne Meadows to the base of Mt. Whitney. My stereo was a thing pride and my brother still uses the 1971 Nikko 530 receiver in maintenance building of the golf course he manages. He swears it sounds just as good as it did in our bedroom.

 

[JiiPee]

I'd say that affordable class D amps is one of the things changing the market, but not the only one.

First, there's the reduced number of sources. Couple of decades ago it was usual to have a vinyl player, a cassette player, a tuner, and maybe even a reel-to-reel tape player. Then CD players came, and for some of us it replaced maybe one or two of the old sources, but for some, it was yet another source. So we needed an amplifier/receiver with lots of inputs. Now the kids need only one or two inputs - usb and/or wifi. The old style amp/receiver with all those inputs is now unnecessary big box with lots of unnecessary stuff in it.

The important thing about class D amps may not be so much their usage as stand alone amplifiers, but the convenience they provide when creating high quality small active speakers at reasonable price. This, combined with the development of wireless digital technology and DSP , has lead to a situation where traditional large floorstanding passive speakers are becoming niche products, as the new generation small speakers and headphones can offer sound quality that fulfills the expectations of 99% of the consumers.

 

[Doodski]

I'd say that affordable class D amps is one of the things changing the market, but not the only one.

First, there's the reduced number of sources. Couple of decades ago it was usual to have a vinyl player, a cassette player, a tuner, and maybe even a reel-to-reel tape player. Then CD players came, and for some of us it replaced maybe one or two of the old sources, but for some, it was yet another source. So we needed an amplifier/receiver with lots of inputs. Now the kids need only one or two inputs - usb and/or wifi. The old style amp/receiver with all those inputs is now unnecessary big box with lots of unnecessary stuff in it.

The important thing about class D amps may not be so much their usage as stand alone amplifiers, but the convenience they provide when creating high quality small active speakers at reasonable price. This, combined with the development of wireless digital technology and DSP , has lead to a situation where traditional large floorstanding passive speakers are becoming niche products, as the new generation small speakers and headphones can offer sound quality that fulfills the expectations of 99% of the consumers.

I think that might have something to do with geographical location and whether there is space in the home for large speakers or not. USA folks and Canadians generally have larger homes and more space for bigger speakers I think.

 

[Zensō]

Thinking about this, seeing Apple “Q- Tips” everywhere I look, I wonder what the sales numbers for over the ear headphones look like for the past five years. Something tells me they aren’t good.

This doesn’t answer your question directly, but it perhaps gives a clue. AirPods alone are nearly as large as the rest of the audio industry combined.

 

[notsodeadlizard]

Size, weight, less copper and capacitor.

This does not apply to class D, it is more about switching power supplies, which in general allow you to get rid of large transformers.
And switching power supply, in principle, can be used to power anything, even class A.
But as for capacitor tanks...
In the real world, they have to be big if you want to get the good transients.
This is no longer dependent on the power supply, because the internal resistance of a good capacitor tank is very difficult to obtain by any other means.

Class D has the killer application area - battery powered devices.
Those ultra-popular and profitable for Apple Airpods, for example.
Otherwise, Class D are just very good amplifiers ( far from all of them, but those designed by Bruno Putzeys ).

 

[Galliardist]

I don't care what class my amp is. I have an Asgard 3. Apparently it's Class A/B. I don't know what that means. It's like a modified class A. It gets very hot but so what? I don't care. It's a headphone amp - it's not going to be using that much power. Class D all seem very expensive and large. Why? Are they over complicated? Are they ever going to become less complicated? Do they sound better? I thought the Asgard 3 measured amazingly well - as do all manner of other very inexpensive headphone amps. So what does class D solve? Why would I - or this new idealised hypothetical teen we're all staking the future of hifi on - be interested in it?

Have you not heard of... loudspeakers?

 

[Galliardist]

I don't care what class my amp is. I have an Asgard 3. Apparently it's Class A/B. I don't know what that means. It's like a modified class A. It gets very hot but so what? I don't care. It's a headphone amp - it's not going to be using that much power. Class D all seem very expensive and large. Why? Are they over complicated? Are they ever going to become less complicated? Do they sound better? I thought the Asgard 3 measured amazingly well - as do all manner of other very inexpensive headphone amps. So what does class D solve? Why would I - or this new idealised hypothetical teen we're all staking the future of hifi on - be interested in it?

OK, your point deserves something other than flippancy. So does

But I don't know how much, if any, effect it might have on Gen X or millenials. Probably not much. I don't know of any who sit home and listen to music. Video games and streaming TV are more their thing.

The future of audio is contained in these two comments, I suspect. We are seeing the death of the conventional stereo system with a big amp and two loudspeakers - in this particular place, we are concerned with science that tells us of the probability that people prefer surround systems in controlled testing, home theatre is the point where that is happening - the big end of streaming video now - and audio VR via headphones is to my mind a coming thing, because who needs 360 degree immersive video without matching sound? Even soundbars will continue to evolve and improve, if you buy the good stuff.

There are hints that people are moving away from streaming TV now, driven away by each big new thing being on yet another paid service and a likely reduction in quality of shows as the market fragments. I see music coming back into the mass market more, but in a different form to what we oldies are used to. It will have to evolve to play on home audio and immersive systems used primarily for gaming. Among the younger "classical" musicians I'm acquainted with around here, in fact, music written for games is having the kind of influence that movie soundtracks have had over the last few years for music listeners more widely.

For the next decades, I see music as existing more as part of wider experience, rather than just on its own terms, and audio innovation will not be a new form of an existing technology but new forms to match those wider experiences. We may have fewer musicians in a broader sense but those attracted will fit in happily and profitably. Pure music will continue to exist and its time will come again in some way. It always does. Music is too interesting to the brain to just go away...

That's not new. It existed in mass market TV in the past - we've had threads about theme songs here - movies, musicals and opera before that. And there's always been dance, of course.

 

[threni]

Have you not heard of... loudspeakers?

Never use them.

 

[TheWalkman]

Never use them.

You should try!

 

[Vacceo]

Agreed. Video and video games took the air out of audio as a form of focused, engaging entertainment. Now music serves more of a lifestyle supportive role for most.

Videogames play a lot better on a good system. My old KEF speakers blast Doom Eternal incredibly well.

 

[TimW]

My entire point with starting this thread is to ask if hifi is a dying hobby or can the low cost, class D amps create/ hook the next generation audiophiles

Absolutely they will! But not in stand-alone amplifiers. This is just my opinion as a 28 year old based on my experience which includes working at a HiFi shop in Seattle.

Most young people just use the speakers built into their devices or bluetooth headphones most of the time. When they want to listen out loud they usually use portable bluetooth speakers, soundbars and smart speakers. From there they may step up to higher performance lifestyle speakers like Edifier, Logitech, Audioengine, Kanto, Bose, Klipsch, etc. The store I work at is an Audioengine, Audio-Technica, and Edifier dealer. We sell a whole lot of AT turntable and entry level Edifier powered speaker setups. There are also a lot of young hipsters who want vintage stuff or modern stuff that looks vintage so if they know the different amplifier classes they prefer Class A or AB. The more serious ones who end up on ASR are often recommended studio monitors instead. Pretty much all of these devices, excluding headphones, are powered by Class D.