Tannoy System 600 Speaker Review

[Frank Dernie]

Would be nice to see how the new Tannoy Golds perform and whether they've made any improvements over the years...

The Golds are old ones, they were available in the 1960s.
The drivers were very expensive to make so they designed some simpler ones like these.
This has the less expensive to make waveguide of the cheaper models.
However the other measurements I have seen make this one appear faulty.
I was surprised Amir mentioned the driver looking odd since, as somebody from the UK, I have been familiar with the dual-concentric for 50+ years!
I suppose there will be plenty of US speakers I know nothing about though.
The Revel and JBL speakers popular on this site have never been easy to find here, for example, and I had never heard of Dayton, had to look them up!

 

[thewas]

That dip at 1500Hz is quite wide and it is very near to the area where our ears are most sensitive. That dip is also preceded with wide peakso those 2 should be considered together. Keep in mind that only 2 pages of Toole's 400 pages book are about non-linear distorion, and for a good reason - in listening tests it turned out masking takes care of most of it, which is not the case with linear distortion. And that is why scoring penalises peaks and dips but doesn't take into consideration non-linear dostorion. For that reason I choosed to correct it.

If due to the 10dB gain the HD increases in that region to more than 10% and the correlating IMD get also very high, it will be a definitely nasty audible problem, as also the sensitivity of our hearing to distortion is maximum in that rage. As we know Tooles research was mainly focused to the most important fields of FR but would never accept a loudspeaker with such distortion. In the end it depends of course on listening level and how the distortion raises, so for an owner it would be best to try both and see which of the drawbacks he finds less annoying, possibly even a compromise in between, i.e. filling the dip only partially.

 

[QMuse]

If due to the 10dB gain the HD increases in that region to more than 10% and the correlating IMD get also very high, it will be a definitely nasty audible problem, as also the sensitivity of our hearing to distortion is maximum in that rage.

Luckilly for our discussion we don't have to use "if" in this discussion - we can simply compare THD at 2.84V vs the one measured at 10V (which is 11dB gain) and we quickly learn that THD at 1.5kHz jumped from 1.2% to 1.8%.

 

[ctrl]

But that peak of distortion at about 300Hz is just plain odd. And the second time we have seen something like that.

The HD2 (second order harmonic distortion) peaks around 300Hz are really very strange. What's especially amazing is that HD2@280Hz of the Tannoy speaker's distortion measurement decreases at 11dB higher sound pressure.
So it can't really be direct HD2 of the bass driver - it wouldn't decrease at higher sound pressure levels. The same applies to HD3@290Hz, which also decreases at higher sound pressure.

The simplest explanation would be a measurement error by Amir - but after so many measurements by Amir, I would rule that out (for now ).

If there is no damping material inside the speaker, I would have an absurd theory - does anyone know?

Yes, using the voltage ratio is sufficient and gives the 11 dB you indicate.

For lazy people there is a sound engineer website that provides hundreds of conversions.
Also the sound pressure change to voltage ratio.
http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-db-data.htm

 

[MediumRare]

Repeating what I already know is not helpful. What is helpful is showing how the extra effort is worth it at the expense of measuring another speaker. And remember, it is not just time to measure but capture the results, format, annotate and publish. And field questions about it like I am doing now.

From my non-technical perspective, @amirm , I noted (among the many other very positive aspects) two things in your reviews so far. First, you’ve stated that some of the measurements don’t correlate with your informal listening tests. Second, more than one speaker has distorted at too low an SPL or doesn’t reach a level of "loudness" you expected it to. Therefore, I do see it as a highly useful exercise to explore ways of producing measurements to quantify those qualitative observations. Certainly, doubling the test protocol appears onerous . Nevertheless, perhaps chalk it up to R&D until you’ve settled on a full analysis protocol? Regarding licensing: just let the donor community know your priorities for investment and the benefits and I suspect we will enable progress.

 

[Dialectic]

The Golds are old ones, they were available in the 1960s.
The drivers were very expensive to make so they designed some simpler ones like these.
This has the less expensive to make waveguide of the cheaper models.
However the other measurements I have seen make this one appear faulty.
I was surprised Amir mentioned the driver looking odd since, as somebody from the UK, I have been familiar with the dual-concentric for 50+ years!
I suppose there will be plenty of US speakers I know nothing about though.
The Revel and JBL speakers popular on this site have never been easy to find here, for example, and I had never heard of Dayton, had to look them up!

I was perplexed when, as an American then new to living in Great Britain, I heard locals use the word "Tannoy" to refer to the PA loudspeaker in a train station or airport. If you're not in Great Britain, you may have heard James May use the word this way in The Grand Tour or old episodes of Top Gear. It seems that Tannoy has--or once had--a very strong brand in Britain.

 

[MediumRare]

@Kyle / MrHeeHo
Conversely, none of the Tannoy measured that I have seen have such an egregious dip in the crossover region, especially when the horizontal/vertical performance is amazingly controlled in that region. That coupled with the fact that the frequency response error is much higher than spec (and they state using an anechoic chamber) and that it exceeds the distortion rating at just ~2W leads me not wanting to add it to the master list of preference ratings.

I agree, if there is some question of age or other damage influencing the measurements then it is unfair to include the measurements in the table. These reviews will have a real commercial impact and thus must be scrupulously fair.

 

[MZKM]

Here are the files containing corrected data, hopefully I did it right so you'll be able to load them.

Those are in 0.25Hz increments, it has to be the same/similar to the frequencies in the original data (1/20 octave).

 

[QMuse]

Those are in 0.25Hz increments, it has to be the same/similar to the frequencies in the original data (1/20 octave).

As an alternative to 0.25Hz REW offers these PPO (points per octave) values. IF that is not the option maybe the alternative can be choosing by hand among these 0.25Hz values and deleting the rest?

 

[thewas]

Luckilly for our discussion we don't have to use "if" in this discussion - we can simply compare THD at 2.84V vs the one measured at 10V (which is 11dB gain) and we quickly learn that THD at 1.5kHz jumped from 1.2% to 1.8%.

True, had overseen that THD was measured in 2 levels, although it still cannot guarantee what will happen at even higher levels.

 

[digitalfrost]

Speaker Listening Tests
No time as the big pile of speakers waiting to be reviewed is threatening to fall on me....

(excited for the reviews, not the speakers falling on you )

 

[MZKM]

As an alternative to 0.25Hz REW offers these PPO (points per octave) values. IF that is not the option maybe the alternative can be choosing by hand among these 0.25Hz values and deleting the rest?

View attachment 53346

Like I said, I’m not home till after the weekend, so I’m not going through 80,000 measurements and reducing it to the needed ~200.

 

[QMuse]

Like I said, I’m not home till after the weekend, so I’m not going through 80,000 measurements and reducing it to the needed ~200.

Of course, that is not what I meant. Tomorrow I can try to use REW's 24 points per octave which should result in app 240 points. You can then adjust them further mannually once you catch some time. Would that be ok?

 

[oldsysop]

@Amir please measure these :
Tannoy Westminster Royal Special Edition

Specifications
Power Rating: 120 watt RMS (500 watt peak)
Recommended Amplifier Power: 50 - 200 watt/channel
Sensitivity ( 2,83 V at 1 m): 99 dB
Maximum SPL: 120 dB at 1m for 120 watt RMS (126 dB at 1m for 500 watt peak)
Nominal Impedance: 8 ohm
Minimum Impedance: 5,5 ohm
Frequency Response: 18 Hz - 20 kHz , ±3 dB
Crossover Frequencies:
300 Hz acoustical;
1000 Hz electrical
Crossover Control:
±3 dB over 1 kHz to 20 kHz shelving;
+3 dB to -6 dB per octave over 5 kHz to 20 kHz slope
Crossover Type: Bi-wired, hard-wired, passive, low-loss,time compensated Type 1109
Driver Type: 15-inch Dual Concentric High Compliance Type 3889/W
Enclosure Type: Compound horn
Enclosure Volume: 530 litre
Dimensions (H x W x D): 1395 x 980 x 560 mm (1590 x 1080 x 660 mm packed)
Weight: 138 kg complete (154 kg packed)
Enclosure Material: Solid walnut with 25 mm birch ply, crossbracing and very heavy internal damping

 

[MZKM]

Of course, that is not what I meant. Tomorrow I can try to use REW's 24 points per octave which should result in app 240 points. You can then adjust them further mannually once you catch some time. Would that be ok?

If they are close to the points used normally, sure.

 

[MZKM]

@Amir please measure these :
Tannoy Westminster Royal Special Edition

Specifications
Power Rating: 120 watt RMS (500 watt peak)
Recommended Amplifier Power: 50 - 200 watt/channel
Sensitivity ( 2,83 V at 1 m): 99 dB
Maximum SPL: 120 dB at 1m for 120 watt RMS (126 dB at 1m for 500 watt peak)
Nominal Impedance: 8 ohm
Minimum Impedance: 5,5 ohm
Frequency Response: 18 Hz - 20 kHz , ±3 dB
Crossover Frequencies:
300 Hz acoustical;
1000 Hz electrical
Crossover Control:
±3 dB over 1 kHz to 20 kHz shelving;
+3 dB to -6 dB per octave over 5 kHz to 20 kHz slope
Crossover Type: Bi-wired, hard-wired, passive, low-loss,time compensated Type 1109
Driver Type: 15-inch Dual Concentric High Compliance Type 3889/W
Enclosure Type: Compound horn
Enclosure Volume: 530 litre
Dimensions (H x W x D): 1395 x 980 x 560 mm (1590 x 1080 x 660 mm packed)
Weight: 138 kg complete (154 kg packed)
Enclosure Material: Solid walnut with 25 mm birch ply, crossbracing and very heavy internal damping

Saw someone near me selling their‘s (non royal) for $30,000; I didn’t know anyone that lived near me (besides John Cena) could afford anything like that.

 

[Erik]

@Amir please measure these :
Tannoy Westminster Royal Special Edition

Specifications
Power Rating: 120 watt RMS (500 watt peak)
Recommended Amplifier Power: 50 - 200 watt/channel
Sensitivity ( 2,83 V at 1 m): 99 dB
Maximum SPL: 120 dB at 1m for 120 watt RMS (126 dB at 1m for 500 watt peak)
Nominal Impedance: 8 ohm
Minimum Impedance: 5,5 ohm
Frequency Response: 18 Hz - 20 kHz , ±3 dB
Crossover Frequencies:
300 Hz acoustical;
1000 Hz electrical
Crossover Control:
±3 dB over 1 kHz to 20 kHz shelving;
+3 dB to -6 dB per octave over 5 kHz to 20 kHz slope
Crossover Type: Bi-wired, hard-wired, passive, low-loss,time compensated Type 1109
Driver Type: 15-inch Dual Concentric High Compliance Type 3889/W
Enclosure Type: Compound horn
Enclosure Volume: 530 litre
Dimensions (H x W x D): 1395 x 980 x 560 mm (1590 x 1080 x 660 mm packed)
Weight: 138 kg complete (154 kg packed)
Enclosure Material: Solid walnut with 25 mm birch ply, crossbracing and very heavy internal damping

The graph is from Stereoplay magazine.

 

[Frank Dernie]

View attachment 53348

The graph is from Stereoplay magazine.

This looks very believable. Specifying a horn speaker with such a small mouth down to 18Hz is not possible and having a smooth response forward facing with a square horn not particularly well matched to a 15" driver is expecting a bit much too.
OTOH I have heard 15" Tannoys in reflex cabinets sounding effortless.

 

[tomtoo]

Something in this Speaker is broken. Measure a second.
I believe in @Armirs measurements. I dont believe that this is a healthy original speaker. Think about the Kalis.

 

[QMuse]

If they are close to the points used normally, sure.

In the attached file you can see how REW export looks for PIR vs the Klippel PIR data.