Struggle replacing Old AVR - tried RZ50, 4800h, and Cinema 70 - what now?

[techsamurai]

And my speakers and room are different than yours.

So that got us precisely nowhere.

It seems unlikely that three different AVR's underperform audibly in the same way - so I am leaning towards the suggestion made above that your previous set up over emphasised some elements of the frequency response in a way you have got used to. You probably do need to listen to one of the new systems consistently for a while to re-tune your hearing.

Alternatively, get a measurement mic, (Umik 1) and measure the frequency response of the alternative setups to see if that shows you any difference.

Keep them and you'll hear differences when you have multiple AVRs - the sounds in inspiration may be inaudible or less resolved on some AVRs. I suspect on super high end gear, there is even more space between the sounds than the 8002.

The twingling left to right on the 8002 is really impressive. I might have accidentally found a song that separates good receivers from bad in that frequency.

Actually Gipsy Kings are amazing at telling gear apart. They play notes so fast on the Flamenco guitars - the clips both have the ultra fast progressions - and you know those sequences are alive so AVRs either choke on them or play them like slothes which sound completely wrong.

 

[muslhead]

Keep them and you'll hear differences when you have multiple AVRs - the sounds in inspiration may be inaudible or less resolved on some AVRs. I suspect on super high end grear, there is even more space between the sounds than the 8002.

The twingling left to right on the 8002 is really impressive. I might have accidentally found a song that separates good receivers from bad in that frequency.

Actually Gipsy Kings are amazing at telling gear apart. They play notes so fast on the Flamenco guitars and you know those sequences are alive so AVRs either choke on them or play them like slothes which sound completely wrong.

What precisely, is super high end gear?
Is it one grade above high end or moderately high end?
What defines high end in your world? Price?

 

[techsamurai]

I have a Denon 4800. Sounds fine to me and no worse than the expensive HiFi amps it replaced.

What you describe as differences sound so gross that I struggle to see that the AVR is the cause (all three of them )

The clips were meant for you. I haven't heard the clip from Inspiration on the 4800h yet but I have heard Moorea on it - it's partly the reason I ordered a Cinema 70.

The clip from the song Inspiration is better because the background sound didn't even play on my jBL PC speakers while I was trying to make the clips and I had to run to my AVRs to find the sounds.

Actually Gipsy Kings is great for comparing gear.

 

[techsamurai]

What precisely, is super high end gear?
Is it one grade above high end or moderately high end?
What defines high end in your world? Price?

That clip from the Gipsy Kings song especially the song Inspiration with those weird sounds in the background going from left to right channel -you'll know when you hear them. If you can't hear them, then your gear may not be capable of playing them (read below). Even if it plays them, there's space between the sounds (almost 4 sounds, 2 on each side) - I'm going by what the 8002 resolves, it could actually be different on the best receiver on the planet and it might play 6 distinct sounds. The Cinema 70 didn't find the space making them 1 or 2 blended sounds together.

Like I said, my PC's JBL speakers which I listen to quite a bit for videos and have more equalization modes than the Denon 4800h did not play them at all and that song sounds horrible on it.

I have yet to hear them on the 4800h but the other clip from the song Moorea is the reason I bought the Cinema 70 - I just couldn't stand the fake (metallic) flamenco guitar sound and I knew I had to try something else.

Again, no offense to Denon or Marantz owners. I own both and I did not design them. I'm just discussing issues I have with the sound from generations of gear.

 

[EWL5]

I'd like to know how you had your 4800 connected to your 8002 when comparing. I see that you have 7.1 CH IN on the back of your 8002.

1) How many RCA connections are here from the 4800?
2) How many speakers wired to the 4800 vs to the 8002?

 

[techsamurai]

I'd like to know how you had your 4800 connected to your 8002 when comparing. I see that you have 7.1 CH IN on the back of your 8002.

1) How many RCA connections are here from the 4800?
2) How many speakers wired to the 4800 vs to the 8002?

When I got the 4800h, I tried its onboard amps. So I had 5 speakers with 7 connections (bi-amp FL). In music, it used 4 channels + Sub.

Then I switched to bi-amping FL on the 8002 which is technically 2 pre-out connections from the 4800h but the 8002 internally used 4 channels for the 2 speakers. The sub was plugged into the 4800h so the 8002 played music without it - it still did not help the 4800h provide improved instrument contrast or anything like that.

With the Cinema 70 all channels including the sub are fed to the 8002 so the 8002 is doing full amp duties.

 

[CapMan]

Try this clip for guitar sound - there's another guitar that comes in at 2:14. How does it sound on your 4800h? Bear in mind, the instrument is a flamenco guitar playing high notes and the 2nd guitar is appreciably higher when it takes over the other guitar.

I'd love to have a roomful of Denon engineers in my room as I play that for them and my question to them would be very simple "Could one of you please explain to me what I'm listening to?"

✂️ Moorea

17 seconds · Clipped by Tech Samurai · Original video "Moorea" by Gipsy Kings - Topic

youtube.com

Sorry I missed this.

I listened to Moorea - the first guitar and the second @ 2.14.

I would say the second guitar sounds a little more toppy -it sounds like the dude playing it hasn’t trimmed his finger nails and there is more attack / scratchiness when he plucks the strings . The first player has a slightly warmer / rounder sound.

For what it’s worth it took me a while to adjust to the recording as a whole. Don’t underestimate how hard it is to do meaningful side by side - you guided me to that passage so I was really trying to listen for something.

In the other track the panned echos seem to drop out at 1’25” ish and fade back in at 2” ish. Assuming I am listening to the same echo.

I listened using Harbeth P3ESRs, Audyssey MultEQ-XT turned on and a very slight high shelf filter applied in Roon to adjust top end to taste for music

My room is small , and not especially bright. I didn’t think the recording was anything special .

Hope this is helpful. I think the anguish of the OP might be why I love listening to music on my mono Sonos speakers ! So much more relaxing

Avoid the cover of “I did it my way”on the same lp - a shocker (leave it to Frank!)

 

[EWL5]

When I got the 4800h, I tried its onboard amps. So I had 5 speakers with 7 connections (bi-amp FL). In music, it used 4 channels + Sub.

Then I switched to bi-amping FL on the 8002 which is technically 2 pre-out connections from the 4800h but the 8002 internally used 4 channels for the 2 speakers. The sub was plugged into the 4800h so the 8002 played music without it - it still did not help the 4800h provide improved instrument contrast or anything like that.

With the Cinema 70 all channels including the sub are fed to the 8002 so the 8002 is doing full amp duties.

After calibrating w/Audyssey, did you make sure your "Amp Assign" had pre-outs set to "Front" on the 4800?

Could you please tell us how your speaker level connections are wired to the 2 AVRs (somehow you are forgetting or avoiding the question)?

 

[techsamurai]

After calibrating w/Audyssey, did you make sure your "Amp Assign" had pre-outs set to "Front" on the 4800?

Could you please tell us how your speaker level connections are wired to the 2 AVRs (somehow you are forgetting or avoiding the question)?

2 RCA connections from the 4800 for LR- monoprice cables

3 speakers into 4800h C, SR,SL and preout for sub.

I don't have the 4800h connected but the new firmware has "Pre-out + Speakers". I chose "Pre-outs" only

 

[techsamurai]

So the Cinema 70 has the ability to turn off Audyssey and use EQ with 9 bands and best of all it lets you copy the Flat Audyssey settings so you can mess around without affecting Audyssey - nice touch. I have improved the sound massively by augmenting the midrange, at least for my liking. It's much easier than using curves and hearing the effects and is the only other way to control the midrange on the fly since tone controls are limited to bass and treble but missing the all-important midrange which they should add especially for the 4800h.

It's crazy what midrange tweaks do to sound imaging and soundstage.

Let me see if I can tweak the 4800h and resuscitate it one of these days.

 

[CapMan]

I have yet to hear them on the 4800h but the other clip from the song Moorea is the reason I bought the Cinema 70 - I just couldn't stand the fake (metallic) flamenco guitar sound and I knew I had to try something else.

I think this might be the nature of the recording / production - there was a toppy
attack on the plucked strings, especially the second guitar at 2”.

Are you using the “flat” setting in Audyssey - that could well make music sound overly bright as it boosts the natural roll off in your room.

 

[CapMan]

lets you copy the Flat Audyssey settings so you can mess around without affecting Audyssey

“Flat” means the AVR is boosting the higher frequencies to remove the natural roll off of your speakers in your room. I’m not surprised it sounds really bright. The direct sound from your speakers is going to be tilted up - boosted .

Perhaps that is the issue all along?

Most listeners prefer gently downward sloping in room response …0

 

[EWL5]

As I half-facetiously mentioned before, do a manual rolloff above 15kHz and you should be able to get your "Marantz" sound back on the 4800 per the discovery below:

Denon AVR-X4800H AVR Review

looking to put in the extra for the x4800 over the x3800 but... non engineer here. unable to understand graphs and data. could someone please explain in layman terms how the x4800 with the same low quality DACs as the x3800 is Recommended where as the x3800 in Not Recommended...? thanks...

www.audiosciencereview.com

This should get you that warmer sound you so desire...

 

[techsamurai]

I think this might be the nature of the recording / production - there was a toppy
attack on the plucked strings, especially the second guitar at 2”.

Are you using the “flat” setting in Audyssey - that could well make music sound overly bright as it boosts the natural roll off in your room.

Well, the 8002 has a stereo mode that seems to be unique to it and it seems to apply a different curve. It doesn't us Audyssey or Direct and it sounds different.

I'm guessing it's from their other receivers like the pm-11S2 or whatever was available at the time.

So I'm not familiar with how Reference and Flat sound with music because I always switched to Stereo as that was better imho. Also Flat was a pain to select on the old UI so I never touched it.

The 4800h and Cinema 70 seem to use Audyssey for playback if you select it and then you have a choice of Reference vs Flat. Alternatively, you can disable Audyssey and do your own EQ or tone controls.

I'm essentially trying to recreate what Marantz clearly considered stereo musical sound on the 8002.

 

[CapMan]

So I'm not familiar with how Reference and Flat sound with music because I always switched to Stereo as that was better imho. Also Flat was a pain to select on the old UI so I never touched it.

On the 4800 - stereo still causes Audyssey to be applied - if you’ve selected flat you are boosting the natural downward slope to a horizontal line - that may sound really bright on music … depending on how much your speakers roll off.

Pure direct and direct bypass this setting

 

[techsamurai]

“Flat” means the AVR is boosting the higher frequencies to remove the natural roll off of your speakers in your room. I’m not surprised it sounds really bright. The direct sound from your speakers is going to be tilted up - boosted .

Perhaps that is the issue all along?

Most listeners prefer gently downward sloping in room response …0

The 4800h does not sound bright - it sounds the opposite. I described it as the perfect background music curve. It's not a bad option at all to have on an AVR but it should not be the default mode.

I wish Audyssey had 4-5 curves including the downward sloping one you mentioned and a lively one that mirrors the 8002's stereo mode.

 

[CapMan]

Well, the 8002 has a stereo mode that seems to be unique to it and it seems to apply a different curve. It doesn't us Audyssey or Direct and it sounds different.

I'm guessing it's from their other receivers like the pm-11S2 or whatever was available at the time.

So I'm not familiar with how Reference and Flat sound with music because I always switched to Stereo as that was better imho. Also Flat was a pain to select on the old UI so I never touched it.

The 4800h and Cinema 70 seem to use Audyssey for playback if you select it and then you have a choice of Reference vs Flat. Alternatively, you can disable Audyssey and do your own EQ or tone controls.

I'm essentially trying to recreate what Marantz clearly considered stereo musical sound on the 8002.

By MultEQ x for your PC - great upgrade, may be just what you are looking for to tweak .

 

[techsamurai]

On the 4800 - stereo still causes Audyssey to be applied - if you’ve selected flat you are boosting the natural downward slope to a horizontal line - that may sound really bright on music … depending on how much your speakers roll off.

Pure direct and direct bypass this setting

Yeah, there's no dedicated Stereo mode on the 4800h and 70 - they are technicaly 2 channel modes + Sub, although the 4800h has a 2 channel playback menu that allows you to tweak the crossover and LFE for 2 channel - a very nice touch.

What would have been awesome would have been the 8002 curve there. We would not even be talking as I'd switch to that, temper the highs a bit since I have learned a little from the 3 comparisons and I'd be enjoying music from the stars....

 

[techsamurai]

By MultEQ x for your PC - great upgrade

I have it on the iPad - does the PC version have built-in curves?

 

[techsamurai]

Thanks for being helpful by the way and even listening to the clips. You described them amazingly especially the echo at the moments.