Please rescue me from the rabbit hole! Anthem, Denon, Marantz or Integra with KEF r6 + r3 meta, DACs, Music Streaming...

[m_moksha]

A few months ago I did the jump from a cheap soundbar to an expensive soundbar to cheap bookshelf speakers and finally to a 3.1 system: Klipsch rp-600m II / rp600c / SVS SB1000 powered by a Denon s760h. I care about both music and film sound quality.

I haven't been very happy with the Klipsch. They sound harsh to me, especially the center channel, so I'm now investing in "end-game speakers": KEF r3 and r6 metas.
The r6 arrived and I'm not hearing a big improvement over the $399 Klipsch RP600c. It sounds fuller and less harsh, but stills bright and thin. Like the Klipsch I had before, it feels like it doesn't blend at all with the front speakers. I have buyer's remorse, but it could be that something might be wrong with my setup.

My listening environment is not ideal: long living room with a ton of big windows. I can hear a lot of reflections and reverb. Room treatment is not an option at the moment. I played with crossovers, LFE+main vs LFE and so on, but I'm not hearing much of a difference.

So now I'm thinking that maybe I need an AVR with Audissey XT32, which should do a better job than the base version I'm using now?

What would be within budget:

Denon X3800: it has a bit more power for the KEFs and Audissey XT32 with a possible Dirac paid upgrade. I can have this second hand for about $1200
Marantz cinema 50: a bit more expensive (also second hand), same room correction software. Presumably same components in a different chassis.

I kept going back and forth between these two until I stumbled on this forum and saw that these two options haven't been rated well on here, which has thrown me back in the rabbit hole. I also know that there is a long and very controversial thing about Marantz being "warm" and distorting the signal to achieve this, which is reflected in many users saying that Marantz is leagues ahead of Denon for music, some saying the exact opposite and and others saying that there is no difference. What a mess.

For music, it seems like the jump in quality happens when going for something much more expensive like the Denon 4800 or the Marantz cinema 40? I also read on this forum about the Anthem 540 and the Integra DRX 5.4. But then there is the waaay more expensive Integra DRX 8.4 which supposedly has a much better DAC for music? The Anthem on the other hand seems to have a rabid fan base, but also a ton of skeptics that seem to think that it's overpriced for what it offers. Various Youtube channels seem to make outlandish claims in both directions.

Do I need an external DAC? External amplifiers? Or can I find a good AVR that will satisfy these needs? Is Apple Music lossless via Airplay2 a good idea for quality? I really care about listening to high quality music, and unfortunately I have a good ear for it. Please help me figure out what to buy and put my mind at ease... Costs are getting out of hand and I'm incredibly confused.
Thank you!

 

[Golfx]

Well you can easily get lost among the forums. Most people will have what we call an “owners bias” because it is what they decided on and purchased. I would instead rely on professional reviews of the products which are recommended on this website. Amir was disappointed in the 3800 because it was a slight departure of Denon’s usual sterling SINAD. But the resulting SINAD will still produce excellent results and the lower SINAD will be “inaudible” for all listening purposes. Notice I said listening. He can measure the difference but no one can really hear it. If you get the Denon it will have an internal DAC and include a streamer called HEOS which will use your WiFi to connect directly to the servers of music streamers like Amazon Music HD or Tidal and let you stream music in HiRes at 24/192.

Another knowledgeable gentleman who can help is @peng who if he would could also help with the other AVR brands as he has owned almost all of them.

 

[Blumlein 88]

I would say whichever has features you want. They'll sound fine. If the cost is about the same go with the one having a bit more power. I do consider Dirac a step up from Audissey though it too is useful.

 

[peng]

Well you can easily get lost among the forums. Most people will have what we call an “owners bias” because it is what they decided on and purchased. I would instead rely on professional reviews of the products which are recommended on this website. Amir was disappointed in the 3800 because it was a slight departure of Denon’s usual sterling SINAD. But the resulting SINAD will still produce excellent results and the lower SINAD will be “inaudible” for all listening purposes. Notice I said listening. He can measure the difference but no one can really hear it. If you get the Denon it will have an internal DAC and include a streamer called HEOS which will use your WiFi to connect directly to the servers of music streamers like Amazon Music HD or Tidal and let you stream music in HiRes at 24/192.

Another knowledgeable gentleman who can help is @peng who if he would could also help with the other AVR brands as he has owned almost all of them.

Thanks for the words, you have got it covered already. Since he cited ASR/Amir, I might just point him to the more tell tale tests for comparing his chosen devices, instead of focusing too much on the single SINAD value measured under a specific test condition.

 

[peng]

Denon X3800: it has a bit more power for the KEFs and Audissey XT32 with a possible Dirac paid upgrade. I can have this second hand for about $1200
Marantz cinema 50: a bit more expensive (also second hand), same room correction software. Presumably same components in a different chassis.

If you are in the USA or Canada, unless you can justify the added cost for the Marantz look, I would say you if you put "sound quality" the top priority, just save the money to buy the DLBC license. While the $200 Mult EQ X can get you very similar results on paper, DLBC is, imo, better if you are not prepared to spend hours tweaking for the best possible results, again, I mean on paper, because subjectively you have to judge for yourself, all those RC/REQ stuff can get you is the smoothest response, especially in the below 500 Hz range. The Cinema 50 does offer a different frequency response signature because of the use of a slow roll off DAC filter, but that has little effects below 10,000 Hz and only drop by about 2.5 to 3 dB at 20,000 Hz. Many people older than 40 could not hear much pass 10,000 Hz, so even for those who claim (such as Gene of Audioholics.com) they could hear the difference between the Denon/Marantz filters, may not actually hear them in a blind test. In that Video, Gene said he could, but you could tell he wasn't very sure about that either, just listen to him and you will know what I am saying. So, I think you got it right, about right, when you said "presumably same components in a different chassis", as reality is, while there are going to be differences but they would be minor, such as the dac filter (that is software), and the HDAMs (the X3800H doesn't use them, wisely imo haha).

I kept going back and forth between these two until I stumbled on this forum and saw that these two options haven't been rated well on here, which has thrown me back in the rabbit hole. I also know that there is a long and very controversial thing about Marantz being "warm" and distorting the signal to achieve this, which is reflected in many users saying that Marantz is leagues ahead of Denon for music, some saying the exact opposite and and others saying that there is no difference. What a mess.

On this one, I am not going to comment on the "warm" thing as to me those are 99% marketing with almost no basis to believe it could be true for real world use.
Other than that, since you mention distortion, and I think you are likely referring to the ASR test results, I would say, don't focus on the single point SINAD, but look more closely on the following graphs, that, thanks to ASR, do provide much more information that the 90 dB SINAD vs 100 dB SINAD that are important to know but don't really have much impact on "sound quality".

1) The graph below shows the optimal pre out performance is at about 0.8 V, at 95 dB SINAD, so ask yourself, in your application, what would be the pre out voltage range? In my case, it would be less than 0.8 V for sure, even under the highest peak in the contents I listen to so to me, the X3800H does not have a "distortion" issue. But that's for signal frequency at 1 kHz, things can get worse at higher frequencies, so look at the next one.

X3800H

These graphs show the frequency dependence, as it covers frequencies from 20 to 20,000 Hz. If you compare the X3800H and the Cinema 40, you can see that the X3800H actually did a little better, i.e. a little less distortions, though the margin is so small that it really means nothing at all, if Amir is to do it again, the results will change slightly as well, as they are tolerances, temperature, humidity and other factors that could result in such minor differences.

X3800H:

Cinema 40 (Note: I picked the 40 for comparison because ASR has not reviewed the Cinema 50, you can expect they would have similar results though)

So far we are comparing the pre out performance, below are for the power amp output performances:

Base on this comparison, the Cinema 40 did a lot better in the bass range, but from above 500 Hz the X3800H looked a little better. So, if you are going to be using subwoofers and crossover below even 120 Hz, the Cinema 40's advantage, that I believe is mostly due to it's larger power supply, will not make any audible difference.


X3800H

Cinema 40

For music, it seems like the jump in quality happens when going for something much more expensive like the Denon 4800 or the Marantz cinema 40? I also read on this forum about the Anthem 540 and the Integra DRX 5.4. But then there is the waaay more expensive Integra DRX 8.4 which supposedly has a much better DAC for music? The Anthem on the other hand seems to have a rabid fan base, but also a ton of skeptics that seem to think that it's overpriced for what it offers. Various Youtube channels seem to make outlandish claims in both directions.

Do I need an external DAC? External amplifiers? Or can I find a good AVR that will satisfy these needs? Is Apple Music lossless via Airplay2 a good idea for quality? I really care about listening to high quality music, and unfortunately I have a good ear for it. Please help me figure out what to buy and put my mind at ease... Costs are getting out of hand and I'm incredibly confused.
Thank you!

In terms of sound quality, I don't pay too much attention to subjective opinions, based on specs and measurements all of those AVRs you mentioned should sound the same if used at well below their output limits, so I would based on choice on feature sets as others mentioned, prices, and test bench measurements.

If you do use REQ/RC software though, then I can tell you from my experience, having compare Audyssey, Anthem ARCG and DL, you can most likely achieve the smoothest response if you are to just run the auto setup and forget about. Or you like to use REW to guide you tweaking for the smoothest verified by REW, DLBC should be able to get your there much quicker than using the other two.

So, I would say for the money, the X3800H plus a 3 channel buckeye amp based on the NC502MP seems like the best bang for the $.

You may not need the 502, as the 252 might be good enough, or if your priority is 2 channel music, the 2 channel power amp will save you a few $.

Buckeye Amps

Buckeye Amps utilizes the most advanced audio amplifier technologies available. Authorized seller for Hypex and Purifi Class D amplifiers. Based in the US. Free shipping and worldwide service!

www.buckeyeamp.com

Lastly, just fyi, I spent a few hours the other day doing some comparison listening on my newly acquired X1800H and my Marantz separate preamp/power amp. To my surprise, the X1800H sounded no different at moderately low volume driving my Focal 1028 Be towers. I also compared it with the 7.1.4 using my Anthem AVP and all external amps, the X1800H was also equally enjoyable, it actually sounded a little better with bass but it was a uncontrolled comparison so it was just for fun and curiosity, such silly comparisons mean thing, except there is one thing I could say about it, that is, it would not scare me from going back again from "separates" to AVR, when the time come for me to downsize for good!

In this hobby, lots of us have gone through different stages in the way we feel/think about what to go with, but in the end, most would probably realize that chasing electronics, while fun, exciting and even enjoyable, it is the quality of the source contents and the speaker/room/room correction that have much more impacts on our perceived sound quality, that's once we get pass the point of diminishing return.

 

[Golfx]

So OP, now you know why most of us call @peng “Professor PENG.” You will not receive better advice no matter where you look. Most random strangers you read on a forum are certainly not Professional Electrical Engineers like PENG. Instead they collect “sayings” they have read on forums like marantz is “warm” and pass those along to other readers without regard to any basis in fact.

(BTW KEF r series are an excellent choice in speakers.)

 

[m_moksha]

Professor Peng indeed. Thank you all so much, this is really a wonderful community! This is the kind of no-nonsense advice I was hoping for.

It's interesting to see so many people saying stuff like "and then I tried [insert AVR brand] and it sounded TERRIBLE", or youtube channels that make claims about the "musicality" of things (Andrew Robinson is one complicated my search needlessly). Erin Audio Corner was very helpful when it came down to choosing speakers though, he seems great and grounded in measurements.

Prof @peng, I'll summarize what I understood from your very thorough post and you can tell me if I'm off.

1. The AVRs I've been considering sounds almost identical. The marginal differences are barely audible, and in some cases differences that I will be able to only hear until I get into my 40s, which will happen soon
2. Stepping up to more pricey models will be entering into diminishing returns territory.
3. The Marantz 40 has some advantages in how it handles the bass, but if using a subwoofer that won't matter much.
4. Using DLBS is the end game for the calibrate and forget route, which sounds very appealing. XT32 is also a good option.
5. Room correction + room + speakers are what make the most impact on sound.

This wasn't explicit, but I'm also understanding that:

6. The KEF r3 + r6 metas need external amplification in the form of a 4-channel NC502MP or a 2-channel NC252MP (the latter for the L/R only). In the 2-channel scenario, the center channel will be driven by the AVR.

If point 6. is true, I guess I would be getting the 4-channel amp so that L/R/C are powered the same. To do so, I would connect the RCA L/R to the XLR in 4-channel NC502MP using an adapter? I see that the pre amp for the center channel of the Denon X3800 is a single white plug. Why is that the case as opposed to the white/red plugs of the other speakers?

A couple of general questions:

I noticed that a bunch of people add a streamer like the Eversolo (pricey!) or the WiiM Pro Plus. Is there an advantage in doing so over just streaming to the AVR with airplay from, say, a dedicated old tablet? Doesn't the streamer do just that, take the data from your chosen streaming service on your phone/tablet and send it to the AVR?

When applying REQ/RC, I see that there are mentions of Dynamic EQ and Flat vs Reference curves. These options can be chosen by using the Audissey and DL apps. Do you have any word of advice on these?

I'm excited to pull the plug and do this upgrade of equip. I'll report back once it's all set up! Thanks again

amp

 

[totti1965]

I haven't been very happy with the Klipsch. They sound harsh to me, especially the center channel, so I'm now investing in "end-game speakers": KEF r3 and r6 metas.
The r6 arrived and I'm not hearing a big improvement over the $399 Klipsch RP600c. It sounds fuller and less harsh, but stills bright and thin. Like the Klipsch I had before, it feels like it doesn't blend at all with the front speakers. I have buyer's remorse, but it could be that something might be wrong with my setup.

My listening environment is not ideal: long living room with a ton of big windows. I can hear a lot of reflections and reverb. Room treatment is not an option at the moment. I played with crossovers, LFE+main vs LFE and so on, but I'm not hearing much of a difference.

Stay with the Klipschs, because they have the smaller listening window (less room dependency) and
try to make these equalisations
(according to spinorama.org and Erins audio Corner measurements). At least your corrections should go in this direction.
EQ for Klipsch RP-600M II computed from ErinsAudioCorner data
Preference Score 5.24 with EQ 6.75
Generated from http://github.com/pierreaubert/spinorama/generate_peqs.py v0.26
Dated: 2024-03-19-16:28:23

Preamp: -2.8 dB

Filter 1: ON PK Fc 42 Hz Gain +2.87 dB Q 0.59
Filter 2: ON PK Fc 113 Hz Gain -1.34 dB Q 1.47
Filter 3: ON PK Fc 289 Hz Gain +2.20 dB Q 0.75
Filter 4: ON PK Fc 792 Hz Gain -0.86 dB Q 2.96
Filter 5: ON PK Fc 1642 Hz Gain -1.56 dB Q 2.98
Filter 6: ON PK Fc 3779 Hz Gain -2.14 dB Q 1.26
Filter 7: ON PK Fc 12736 Hz Gain -3.57 dB Q 1.09


And: NOT to do any room treatment is absolute no option (at least you need carpets and some curtains for your windows!!!)
The room is more important than the equipment.


Yours,

Thorsten

 

[Golfx]

Stay with the Klipschs, because they have the smaller listening window (less room dependency) and
try to make these equalisations
(according to spinorama.org and Erins audio Corner measurements). At least your corrections should go in this direction.
EQ for Klipsch RP-600M II computed from ErinsAudioCorner data
Preference Score 5.24 with EQ 6.75
Generated from http://github.com/pierreaubert/spinorama/generate_peqs.py v0.26
Dated: 2024-03-19-16:28:23

Preamp: -2.8 dB

Filter 1: ON PK Fc 42 Hz Gain +2.87 dB Q 0.59
Filter 2: ON PK Fc 113 Hz Gain -1.34 dB Q 1.47
Filter 3: ON PK Fc 289 Hz Gain +2.20 dB Q 0.75
Filter 4: ON PK Fc 792 Hz Gain -0.86 dB Q 2.96
Filter 5: ON PK Fc 1642 Hz Gain -1.56 dB Q 2.98
Filter 6: ON PK Fc 3779 Hz Gain -2.14 dB Q 1.26
Filter 7: ON PK Fc 12736 Hz Gain -3.57 dB Q 1.09


And: NOT to do any room treatment is absolute no option (at least you need carpets and some curtains for your windows!!!)
The room is more important than the equipment.


Yours,

Thorsten

Or he can change to a less bright speaker like the Kef r series

 

[Chrispy]

I use several brands of avr currently, the whole warm/bright/musical sort of descriptions I find pretty much nonsense, probably due to poor comparison methods (or reading subjective comments in advertising or in various audio groups/fora). I say buy on feature set....Audyssey XT32 and Dirac can be very nice in the D&M offerings. I'd start with Audyssey and using the Audyssey MultEQ editor app (or even perhaps the MultEQ-X app) before moving to buy a Dirac license, tho.

Speakers and your room is another matter. I'm not much of a Klipsch fan myself, but haven't heard the RP series, which supposedly improved on some of the brightness/harshness I remember. What other speakers did you try other than Kef? EQ can only do so much.

 

[peng]

o I'm now investing in "end-game speakers": KEF r3 and r6 metas.
The r6 arrived and I'm not hearing a big improvement over the $399 Klipsch RP600c. It sounds fuller and less harsh, but stills bright and thin. Like the Klipsch I had before, it feels like it doesn't blend at all with the front speakers. I have buyer's remorse, but it could be that something might be wrong with my setup.

My listening environment is not ideal: long living room with a ton of big windows. I can hear a lot of reflections and reverb. Room treatment is not an option at the moment. I played with crossovers, LFE+main vs LFE and so on, but I'm not hearing much of a difference.

I am not surprised that the KEF R3/R6 still sounds a little bright and thin. They are basically 4 ohm speakers with some low dips and phase angles, while not too bad, there are a couple not so good spot, example: at around 40 Hz and 120 Hz.

The official KEF specs of the R3 meta:
Sensitivity: 87 dB
Impedance: 4 ohm nominal, 32 ohm minimum
Recommend amp power: 15-180 W.

So based on the above, unless you don't listen very loud and sitting not too far, say less than 3 meters, you can't expect them to perform as well as they could.

KEF R3 Meta Bookshelf Speaker Review

Kef R3 Meta

www.erinsaudiocorner.com

The graph below shows based on EPDR ohms (Equivalent Peak Dissipation Resistance) , it is around 1.9 at about 80 Hz, so setting crossover at 80 or 90 Hz should help, though I would highly recommend you add an buckeye amp, preferably the NC502MP, though the NC252MP may do the trick too, or if you prefer class AB amp, something like the Monolith 200WX3 would be good too.

So now I'm thinking that maybe I need an AVR with Audissey XT32, which should do a better job than the base version I'm using now?

Yes, XT32 comes with SubEQ HT (for Denon and Marantz anyway), that will help, but be prepare to spend some time tweaking for better results. Dirac Live is easier to tweak for comparable or better results.

 

[peng]

Professor Peng indeed. Thank you all so much, this is really a wonderful community! This is the kind of no-nonsense advice I was hoping for.

It's interesting to see so many people saying stuff like "and then I tried [insert AVR brand] and it sounded TERRIBLE", or youtube channels that make claims about the "musicality" of things (Andrew Robinson is one complicated my search needlessly). Erin Audio Corner was very helpful when it came down to choosing speakers though, he seems great and grounded in measurements.

Prof @peng, I'll summarize what I understood from your very thorough post and you can tell me if I'm off.

1. The AVRs I've been considering sounds almost identical. The marginal differences are barely audible, and in some cases differences that I will be able to only hear until I get into my 40s, which will happen soon
2. Stepping up to more pricey models will be entering into diminishing returns territory.
3. The Marantz 40 has some advantages in how it handles the bass, but if using a subwoofer that won't matter much.
4. Using DLBS is the end game for the calibrate and forget route, which sounds very appealing. XT32 is also a good option.
5. Room correction + room + speakers are what make the most impact on sound.

This wasn't explicit, but I'm also understanding that:

6. The KEF r3 + r6 metas need external amplification in the form of a 4-channel NC502MP or a 2-channel NC252MP (the latter for the L/R only). In the 2-channel scenario, the center channel will be driven by the AVR.

If point 6. is true, I guess I would be getting the 4-channel amp so that L/R/C are powered the same. To do so, I would connect the RCA L/R to the XLR in 4-channel NC502MP using an adapter? I see that the pre amp for the center channel of the Denon X3800 is a single white plug. Why is that the case as opposed to the white/red plugs of the other speakers?

Haha, I am no professor Peng, only have a BSc. in EE., no PhD...
1.through 5., basically, more or less what I was trying to say.

6. I believe buckeye could make you a 3 channel amp if you ask, or you could go with a 2 channel NC502MP and a Fosi V3 Monoblock (https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ds/fosi-audio-v3-mono-amplifier-review.53474/), or you can try to use the 2 channel NC502MP for the L/R and use the AVR-X3800H to biamp the center channel, and see if it could sound good enough for you, until you are ready to buy a mono power amp for it.

A couple of general questions:

I noticed that a bunch of people add a streamer like the Eversolo (pricey!) or the WiiM Pro Plus. Is there an advantage in doing so over just streaming to the AVR with airplay from, say, a dedicated old tablet? Doesn't the streamer do just that, take the data from your chosen streaming service on your phone/tablet and send it to the AVR?

Streamer like the Eversolo typically have better audio parts and circuitry than those used in the midrange or some flagship AVRs but not the WiiM that probably is in par, in terms of overall audio quality. Other than that, it would be up to you to consider if those more expensive options have some extra features that you would like to have.

If you do get into something like the Eversolo, you should pair it with power amps of comparable quality, there isn't much point using it with an AVR.

When applying REQ/RC, I see that there are mentions of Dynamic EQ and Flat vs Reference curves. These options can be chosen by using the Audissey and DL apps. Do you have any word of advice on these?

I love DEQ, but based on forum posts, many don't, though most of those who don't like it seem to be because they felt it boosts the surround channels too much. If your application is 3.1, then you won't have that issue. I would say try it for sure, there is nothing to loose.

I'm excited to pull the plug and do this upgrade of equip. I'll report back once it's all set up! Thanks again

If you already have the KEF R3 and R6, then you are all set, just need to grab the AVR, may be try harder to get the best deal on a new one, forum members reportedly was able to get it for under 1 K though that might have been in Europe.

Denon seems to be selling the refurbished units for US$1,299.

https://www.denon.com/en-us/product/denon-certified-refurbished/avr-x3800h/300609-refurbished.html, they do have the 30-day return policy so it seems safe.

 

[m_moksha]

@totti1965 , thank you for taking the time! I already have the KEF r3 meta on their way, but I appreciate your help. I agree that room treatment is a priority. I will be buying a house next year and am planning on having a dedicated music/film room that I can work on.

@Golfx , I just went through the equip in your signature and I will totally self-invite myself to watch a movie at your place next time I'm in Virginia

@Chrispy thank you for confirming. I'm set on going for features rather than various comments about bright/warm etc.

@peng , enjoy the honorary doctorate awarded by the forum!
Thank you for answering those last questions. I do sit close to the speakers, about 2.5 meters, and usually listen at a medium volume.
The Denon refurbished link is super helpful. I'm placing an order now for the x3800h.

At this point, my plan is to, for a couple of months and unless harmful to the hardware, drive the KEFs with the AVR, and when the budget permits, I'll get the Buckeye amp you recommended. I'll start with Audissey XT32 which will probably already be a big step up, and then move to DLBC also in a few months. So I guess the last question is whether I can have the AVR drive those speakers for a bit without any harm?

 

[Golfx]

Buckeye’s owner will say he gets such a volume deal on his modules that the 4 channel is cheaper than other vendors 3 channel. So it is easier to just get the Four channel. They have their own owners subforum over at AVSforums. He got his start on this forum though.

If you don’t drive your speakers too loud you should be ok with just the AVR for awhile. The Buckeye will be quite reasonable https://www.buckeyeamp.com/shop/amplifiers/hypex/nc502mp/4_channel

 

[Chrispy]

@totti1965 , thank you for taking the time! I already have the KEF r3 meta on their way, but I appreciate your help. I agree that room treatment is a priority. I will be buying a house next year and am planning on having a dedicated music/film room that I can work on.

@Golfx , I just went through the equip in your signature and I will totally self-invite myself to watch a movie at your place next time I'm in Virginia

@Chrispy thank you for confirming. I'm set on going for features rather than various comments about bright/warm etc.

@peng , enjoy the honorary doctorate awarded by the forum!
Thank you for answering those last questions. I do sit close to the speakers, about 2.5 meters, and usually listen at a medium volume.
The Denon refurbished link is super helpful. I'm placing an order now for the x3800h.

At this point, my plan is to, for a couple of months and unless harmful to the hardware, drive the KEFs with the AVR, and when the budget permits, I'll get the Buckeye amp you recommended. I'll start with Audissey XT32 which will probably already be a big step up, and then move to DLBC also in a few months. So I guess the last question is whether I can have the AVR drive those speakers for a bit without any harm?

Yes, the avr will be fine. You might even find you don't need the external amps at all.

 

[-Jim-]

@peng - While I'm almost always on the same wavelength as you, I don't know if Gene would want this spreading out:

"Many people older than 40 could not hear much pass 10,000 Hz, so even for those who claim (such as Gene of Audioholics.com) they could hear the difference between the Denon/Marantz filters, may not actually hear them in a blind test."

That could be hurtful to his Consulting business.

 

[peng]

At this point, my plan is to, for a couple of months and unless harmful to the hardware, drive the KEFs with the AVR, and when the budget permits, I'll get the Buckeye amp you recommended. I'll start with Audissey XT32 which will probably already be a big step up, and then move to DLBC also in a few months. So I guess the last question is whether I can have the AVR drive those speakers for a bit without any harm?

Some precautionary measures to make life easier for the AVR, when driving truly 4 ohm nominal speakers such as the KEF R meta series:

1) Try using the 4 ohm setting first as that's recommended by the manufacturer. If the speakers sound good at your maximum SPL requirements that you can decide to leave it there, or go back to the 8 ohm setting if you feel comfortable, but I cannot, and will not recommend that to others for the obvious reason. I can say that I would have no trouble doing it, but that would be my personal choice.

2) Use an external fan. If you are sensitive to even the minimal fan noise that could be audible in a quiet room during quiet passages, you can go with the Noctua one below:

Amazon.com

This fan is really quiet, virtually silent, but you need to do a little work to connect it to a 12 V (or lower if slower speed still works for you) power supply as it does not come with a USB connection that others such as the popular AC Infinity fans offer.

3) Crossover at 90 Hz should help a little, though not by much.

Since you sit quite close, at 2.5 meters, you may be happy with volume at -20 or lower, in that case the AVR should be fine, but I would still use an external fan regardless. Even if you go with a beefier AVR such as the Marantz Cinema 40, I would still use an external fan but that's just me...

 

[ban25]

A few months ago I did the jump from a cheap soundbar to an expensive soundbar to cheap bookshelf speakers and finally to a 3.1 system: Klipsch rp-600m II / rp600c / SVS SB1000 powered by a Denon s760h. I care about both music and film sound quality.

I haven't been very happy with the Klipsch. They sound harsh to me, especially the center channel, so I'm now investing in "end-game speakers": KEF r3 and r6 metas.
The r6 arrived and I'm not hearing a big improvement over the $399 Klipsch RP600c. It sounds fuller and less harsh, but stills bright and thin. Like the Klipsch I had before, it feels like it doesn't blend at all with the front speakers. I have buyer's remorse, but it could be that something might be wrong with my setup.

My listening environment is not ideal: long living room with a ton of big windows. I can hear a lot of reflections and reverb. Room treatment is not an option at the moment. I played with crossovers, LFE+main vs LFE and so on, but I'm not hearing much of a difference.

Generally when folks say a speaker sounds thin, they mean they are missing bass.

There are a few housekeeping items to check before purchasing a bunch of gear:

1. On the Denon, make sure you have your front 3 speakers set to "Small" and subwoofer mode set to LFE. This is important, because if you set them to Large, the crossover setting will be ignored and the subwoofer will be left unused.
2. When playing music, make sure the AVR mode is set to "Stereo" (i.e. 2.1) rather than Direct or Pure Direct (i.e. 2.0), as this will ensure the subwoofer is passed the frequencies below the crossover.
3. Sit next to your subwoofer and make sure it's actually working when playing content (particularly music due to the above 2 points).
4. Make sure your speakers are properly in-phase such that no wires are crossed at the speaker terminals or the AVR.

If all those check out, then you need some EQ to boost up the low-end. IIRC, that model of Denon should have a GEQ that can perform as a tone control to boost the bass. I recommend starting with a +6 dB boost and seeing how you like it.

 

[m_moksha]

@peng I wanted to thank you again. I ended up getting a great deal on a 4800x used, and KEF-refurbished r3 metas. I ran audyssey and now I finally understand what people mean when they talk about "big soundstage". The new setup is night and day. Music sounds incredible. Thanks for the push!

 

[peng]

@peng I wanted to thank you again. I ended up getting a great deal on a 4800x used, and KEF-refurbished r3 metas. I ran audyssey and now I finally understand what people mean when they talk about "big soundstage". The new setup is night and day. Music sounds incredible. Thanks for the push!

Thank you for the feedback. Those R metas are great speakers, you just need to give them enough juice when they demand it, and you will know if your amp has enough, by figuring out the maximum demand based on your distance and desired SPL, and make sure there is some headroom.