Struggle replacing Old AVR - tried RZ50, 4800h, and Cinema 70 - what now?

[techsamurai]

As I half-facetiously mentioned before, do a manual rolloff above 15kHz and you should be able to get your "Marantz" sound back on the 4800 per the discovery below:

Denon AVR-X4800H AVR Review

Your 3800 is still going to be just as good sonically though. All the advantages you listed are just nice to have, but not audible, not without using the eyes anyway lol.. FWIW, the real difference between the 3800 and 4800 IMO is the presence of a component video/audio input on the 4800.

www.audiosciencereview.com

This should get you that warmer sound you so desire...

Thanks! It's mostly in the mids (and upper bass) where the 4800h and 70 differed which is really crucial because mids (100hz-500hz) apparently are all the fundamentals for voices, guitars, you name it.

I did try those frequencies (15khz). I can't hear about 14750hz I think or thereabouts. But oddly at the higher frequencies like that my ears start doing weird things - hearing them, then not hearing them and it seems to alternate from ear to ear when you reach the limits. Try it out - it's pretty funny.

As I told Peng, my ears are doing their own roll off there and it's permanent and will only deteriorate.

I was playing high tones like 18000hz and I couldn't hear them but my kids were both screaming "stop this sound dad! it sounds horrible".

So I'm less susceptible to bright speakers and I wonder if I need a bit of augmentation there...

 

[CapMan]

I have it on the iPad - does the PC version have built-in curves?

It’s way more sophisticated than the app.

You can also load in eq settings from REW if that something you use.

 

[CapMan]

Thanks! It's mostly in the mids (and upper bass) where the 4800h and 70 differed which is really crucial because mids (100hz-500hz) apparently are all the fundamentals for voices, guitars, you name it.

I did try those frequencies (15khz). I can't hear about 14750hz I think or thereabouts. But oddly at the higher frequencies like that my ears start doing weird things - hearing them, then not hearing them and it seems to alternate from ear to ear when you reach the limits. Try it out - it's pretty funny.

As I told Peng, my ears are doing their own roll off there and it's permanent and will only deteriorate.

I was playing high tones like 18000hz and I couldn't hear them but my kids were both screaming "stop this sound dad! it sounds horrible".

So I'm less susceptible to bright speakers and I wonder if I need a bit of augmentation there...

I can hear to 13kHz - and
I still find bright speakers bright

 

[CapMan]

Having played around with REW and DSP for a couple of years I’m totally certain that any sound characteristic the amp has is immaterial vs the impact of EQ on the sound (for better or worse depending on how it’s done) - brighter, warmer, recessed, forward , bass light, bass heavy…airy, dull etc

 

[voodooless]

Doesn’t the old Audyssey have the midrange dip baked in?

Simple Home Cinema - Bringing Your Entertainment to Life

Should you turn Midrange Compensation on or off? How do you know if your speakers need it? Let’s find out!

simplehomecinema.com

Add the dip back and I’m sure it will sound as it always did on the old 8002.

 

[techsamurai]

Having played around with REW and DSP for a couple of years I’m totally certain that any sound characteristic the amp has is immaterial vs the impact of EQ on the sound (for better or worse depending on how it’s done) - brighter, warmer, recessed, forward , bass light, bass heavy…airy, dull etc

I have to agree - I will admit to being a complete novice in equalization as Marantz handled that for me but I have Dolby Atmos on my PC speakers and I was shocked what it does for those things.

What really shocks me is the impact of EQ on imaging and soundstage. The Cinema 70 is sounding like a Cinema 700 Night and day... It also changes the character being able to convey sadness and joy in songs.

 

[techsamurai]

Doesn’t the old Audyssey have the midrange dip baked in?

Simple Home Cinema - Bringing Your Entertainment to Life

Should you turn Midrange Compensation on or off? How do you know if your speakers need it? Let’s find out!

simplehomecinema.com

Add the dip back and I’m sure it will sound as it always did on the old 8002.

Doesn't a dip reduce? I need a hump and it's at lower frequencies.

I probably have the dip in my Audyssey on the 8002 when watching movies or games but it has a special stereo mode that apparently has its own curve that I assume is static but for all I know could be dynamic or based on volume.

 

[voodooless]

Doesn't a dip reduce? I need a hump and it's at lower frequencies.

I probably have the dip in my Audyssey on the 8002 when watching movies or games but it has a special stereo mode that apparently has its own curve that I assume is static but for all I know could be dynamic or based on volume.

If you have all processing disabled for stereo, the it’s basically a flat curve, possibly a bit off rolloff due to slow filter and HDAMs.

I would recommend to always use correction, even in stereo. It’s like driving a car with ABS: not recommended to disable unless you actually know what you’re doing.

 

[CapMan]

Doesn't a dip reduce? I need a hump and it's at lower frequencies.

I probably have the dip in my Audyssey on the 8002 when watching movies or games but it has a special stereo mode that apparently has its own curve that I assume is static but for all I know could be dynamic or based on volume.

The mid range comp is on by default . Most say to disable it.

 

[techsamurai]

The mid range comp is on by default . Most say to disable it.

I took it out using the app.

 

[CapMan]

Doesn't a dip reduce? I need a hump and it's at lower frequencies.

I probably have the dip in my Audyssey on the 8002 when watching movies or games but it has a special stereo mode that apparently has its own curve that I assume is static but for all I know could be dynamic or based on volume.

The dip in the presence region (as it’s called) can make things sound a little more relaxed and easy, and a bit less forward . Perhaps that’s what you heard

 

[techsamurai]

If you have all processing disabled for stereo, the it’s basically a flat curve, possibly a bit off rolloff due to slow filter and HDAMs.

I would recommend to always use correction, even in stereo. It’s like driving a car with ABS: not recommended to disable unless you actually know what you’re doing.

I have never listened to a completely flat curve - the 8002 has Mult-Eq but as I can see from the Cinema 70 which has the same version but 15 years newer, it does not completely flatten the curve although it tries.


The 4800h has Audyssey XT32 which is more capable of flattening the curve, although I have not taken measurements to see if it's 100% accurate but others have and XT and XT32 seem to be pretty good at the flattening part.

So the closest to flat I've heard is the 4800h.

Now, I don't want to derail this but I'll eventually share my EQ settings so you can go copy your flat Audyssey settings and then make the changes. Of course, you can apply them to a curve if you like them. I'll let you be the judge.

I'm beginning to understand why people defeat Audyssey XT32 especially people who are very familiar with the sound characteristics from other gear. Of course, I'm lucky to have the 8002 to guide me to what I consider good sound as a lighthouse beacon but most people would stick with the OOTB calibration and that's almost criminal of Denon, Marantz, and Onkyo.

In fact, I would venture the inability of MultEQ to flatten the response makes it more appealing than XT32 as it retains some traces of the character of the speakers and AVR as I saw with the Cinema 70 - Audyssey robbed the 4800h of everything that made my setup sound good.

 

[CapMan]

I have never listened to a completely flat curve - the 8002 has Mult-Eq but as I can see from the Cinema 70 which has the same version but 15 years newer, it does not completely flatten the curve although it tries.


The 4800h has Audyssey XT32 which is more capable of flattening the curve, although I have not taken measurements to see if it's 100% accurate but others have and XT and XT32 seem to be pretty good at the flattening part.

So the closest to flat I've heard is the 4800h.

Now, I don't want to derail this but eventually I'll give you some EQ settings so you can go copy your flat Audyssey settings and then make the changes. Of course, you can apply them to a curve if you like them. I'll let you be the judge.

I'm beginning to understand why people defeat Audyssey XT32 especially people who are very familiar with the sound characteristics from other gear. Of course, I'm lucky to have the 8002 to guide me to good sound as a lighthouse beacon but most people would stick with the OOTB calibration and that's almost criminal of Denon, Marantz, and Onkyo.

In fact, I would venture the inability of MultEQ to flatten the response makes it more appealing than XT32 as it retains some traces of the character of the speakers and AVR as I saw with the Cinema 70 - Audyssey robbed the 4800h of everything that would make it musical that made my setup sound good.

Have you tried limiting the Eq to 500hz and below to help the bass and leave the character of speakers alone

 

[voodooless]

Audyssey on the Denon and Marantz are identical, except maybe the number of subwoofer channels.

It’s a lot better than the correction of the aging 8002.

The trick is just to tweak the response to your liking. Most likely you’re now used to something that wasn’t really correct in the first place. Give it a bit of time and tweak to your liking.

 

[techsamurai]

Have you tried limiting the Eq to 500hz and below to help the bass and leave the character of speakers alone

I'll share before measurements of my left and right so you can envision my room. It's actually hilarious cause my Surround Left and Right measure so much better and are much cheaper bookshelf speakers (like 10% of the others). I do need EQ of sorts. That's why I don't like Pure Direct on any AVR.

 

[techsamurai]

Audyssey on the Denon and Marantz are identical, except maybe the number of subwoofer channels.

It’s a lot better than the correction of the aging 8002

I don't know if MultEq for the Cinema 70 is better than MultEq for the 8002. I assume there's improvements and, of course, you can use the app with the Cinema 70 and 8002.

But let me share the results

Marantz Front Left (Mult EQ)

Denon Left (Mult EQ XT 32 flatter)

 

[techsamurai]

Here are the front right measurements :

Marantz Front Right (Mult EQ)

Denon Front Right (Mult EQ XT32 Flatter)

 

[techsamurai]

I just realized that my room is really bringing down highs over 8khz - along with my hearing, I won't have to worry about bright speakers ever . They're all B&Ws from the 2000-2010s which a lot of people called bright.

 

[voodooless]

You may want to add a slight bass bump:

You Marantz plots clearly show the midrange dip,(actually it does not) and for bass, it does very little. I can imagine that it sounds a lot different.

 

[techsamurai]

You may want to add a slight bass bump:

View attachment 320772

You Marantz plots clearly show the midrange dip, and for bass, it does very little. I can imagine that it sounds a lot different.

yeah, I've been so focused on the midrange and lower treble that I have not paid attention to the bass of the Cinema 70 at all.

You're absolutely right, Mult-EQ does almost nothing for the bass - my crossover of my Fronts is 40hz on the Cinema 70 and Onkyo 4800h (I could make it full range but I just save the extra efforts on the electronics and the speaker since clearly the room has a bass dip there).

On the 8002, the mains also play bass providing a decent roll-off with the sub since they almost do a natural steep crossover at that range and they are limited. The fronts essentially cannot double bass below 40hz as they can't go deeper - luckily, I don't seem to have room gain to have them drop to 30hz and cause issues witht he sub.

Once I get the main frequencies dialed in, I will come back to bass.

I went 10db hot on the sub on my 8002 and when I look at the frequency measurement of my sub and your chart, I can see why. The moment Audyssey set a volume, I knew it was wrong. I tend to gravitate between 5 and 10 db depending on the recording and my seating position.