Stereophile and Audio Cables

[DSJR]

But they'll never tell the truth, it's all a bunch of snake-oil BS.
Inside the reviews of nearly every component are the comments that constantly support the claim of cables having an effect on the systems sonic performance. Even just the list of the reviewers system which includes some very expensive cables is a sideways claim of their importance.


Atkinson is the king of blowing smoke up your butt.
I've read review after review for years where a product measured like crap but JA always finds some artful way of supporting
the subjective reviewers results, saying that in-spite of the measurement failings, Mikey Fremer was correct in describing how glorious that 5wpc SET amp with 12% THD sounded.

Martin Colloms (of pr@t fame) was doing similar in the 80's (I deliberately stopped reading much of his 'reviewing' in the 90's and you HAD to try to read between the lines in his prose). Awful performing ARC, CJ, VTL and other valve wonders (just before the SET craze started) coming top of the pile every time to his personal subjective sonic preference (not all, but so many superbly measuring far eastern amps were tarred with the same 'lean, bright, thin, clinical' descriptions when I now think that just 'maybe,' these were accurate portrayals as they seemed to distort less than his ~40dB sinad wonders from ARC for example.....

 

[rdenney]

Why don’t Stereophile just sack those old duffers?
Keith

You think the kids who would come after putting them out on the ice floe would be any better?

Rick “not seeing evidence of especially deep scientific understanding or clear thinking from younger folks, rather reverence for software-driven technology” Denney

 

[rdenney]

It's a perfectly apt analogy.

I've had as much or more experience with religious apologists as I have with golden eared audiophiles and their defenders.

The arguments promulgated by R*ligious Apologists, especially in debates, are less about trying to convince unbelievers and more about comforting the flock that there are perfectly rational defences for what they believe.

That's why there is an apt parallel to what Zapper wrote about JA showing up to provide sophisticated sounding defences for the irrational beliefs in cables and tweaks:


"The purpose is to give believers a framework to rationalize their beliefs."


(And btw the claims of R*ligious apologists often aren't contained to metaphysics; they often defend purported dubious historical facts, contradicting and challenging accepted science, etc).

/end references to r*ligion



I hope he doesn't yet. I think his contribution to stereophile remains really valuable.

I tell you what, Matt my friend, I won’t espouse my religious beliefs here if you don’t generalize religious apologists as being charlatans like the purveyors of audio snake oil. It’s unnecessarily offensive to some, outside the topic of the forum, and unhelpful to your argument.

Rick “thanks” Denney

 

[Mart68]

You think the kids who would come after putting them out on the ice floe would be any better?

Can we not just keep putting them out on the ice floe - regardless of age - until things improve?

 

[Zapper]

Can we not just keep putting them out on the ice floe - regardless of age - until things improve?

You're going to need a bigger ice floe.

 

[Audiofire]

Don't mess with the boss there

 

[Sal1950]

This place can be fairly tribal sometimes.

I find calling the people here tribal a lame attempt to discredit their positions simply because they agree with each other.

 

[Overseas]

I know shit about science.
I love music.
I think sometimes, very rarely I heard differences between amps.
I do not like being fooled.
I corroborate information, technical and non technical.
However, I do not buy hearing differences between cables or 95% of amps.
I also know a bullshiter when I meet one, technical or not.
So, not the regular ASR guy.

 

[Justdafactsmaam]

I find calling the people here tribal a lame attempt to discredit their positions simply because they agree with each other.

One’s positions stand or fall on their own merits regardless of tribalism.

Pointing out tribalistic behavior is not necessarily an attempt to discredit a position as much as an attempt to point out a logical fallacy

 

[AdamG]

The arguments promulgated by R*ligious Apologists,

And btw the claims of R*ligious apologists

Matt, not fully spelling the word Religion did not fool us. Nice try though . You had us slightly confused momentarily just by bringing this topic up. We all know to steer clear from ASR’s Third Rail. So am asking nicely for everyone including you to avoid this topic. It can only serve to polarize and divide us and our attention.

Because some at Stereophile are actually members here. Let’s be respectful and treat them with dignity and civility please.

Thank you gentlemen for your cooperation and understanding. Happy Saturday Shipmates.

 

[Keith_W]

I should point out that these cable manufacturers need Stereophile as much as Stereophile needs them. If they don't advertise on Stereophile, then where would they advertise? TAS? 6 Moons? Imagine what would happen to the industry if Stereophile took a principled stance, and said "enough of this nonsense, cables don't make an audible difference, the only difference is functionality, aesthetics, and price". Stereophile is so well respected that it would effectively kill off half the high end cable industry, and that would be a great thing indeed.

Too much audio is wedded to ancient ideas and technology. I roll my eyes at yet another review of a monstrous 300W Class A amp that nobody needs and few can afford. Or a $130k DAC which is effectively reinventing the wheel. What about some forward looking articles? Review an E1DA? Tell their readers how to integrate a subwoofer properly and actually provide some education? Have a section on "this month in the JAES" summarizing the latest audio research? Discuss the pros and cons of various types of DSP? Invite @mitchco to write for them? Maybe a discussion of room treatment, what to use, where to place, pros and cons of different products? If they review a speaker, rather than flowery prose of what the speaker sounds like on music I don't care about, what about discussing who the speaker is for, how it should be placed, and so on? There is so much in audio to write about, and they decide to be a mouthpiece for the manufacturers. How disappointing.

 

[Justdafactsmaam]

Imagine what would happen to the industry if Stereophile took a principled stance, and said "enough of this nonsense, cables don't make an audible difference, the only difference is functionality, aesthetics, and price". Stereophile is so well respected that it would effectively kill off half the high end cable industry, and that would be a great thing indeed.

First, I would love to see it. Not sure it go the way you think though. Consider the investment made by audiophiles in their cables. The financial and emotional investment vs their investment in Stereophile. I think most of these audiophiles would turn on Stereophile rather than the cable manufacturers.

 

[MattHooper]

Matt, not fully spelling the word Religion did not fool us. Nice try though . You had us slightly confused momentarily just by bringing this topic up. We all know to steer clear from ASR’s Third Rail.

No problem. That's why I /ended that topic. (And had no intent to engage in it further).

However....

So am asking nicely for everyone including you to avoid this topic. It can only serve to polarize and divide us and our attention.

Because some at Stereophile are actually members here. Let’s be respectful and treat them with dignity and civility please.

That was exactly one of my main points. And since rdenney's reply to me left the wrong impression hanging in the air I'd like to at least clear that up...

... I won’t espouse my religious beliefs here if you don’t generalize religious apologists as being charlatans like the purveyors of audio snake oil. ...

Rick “thanks” Denney

I did not suggest and do not consider apologists to be charlatans! That's precisely the wrong inference to draw from what I've been arguing. I've been saying we should apply a principle of charity to people who argue things we disagree with, and start with the presumption they are honestly defending something they believe. Stick to the arguments rather than raise charges of dishonesty. That is the stance I have argued for approaching JA's reply in the stereophile comments; the same I apply to apologists (with whom I have a number of great relationships) or most other people with whom I disagree.

Cheers,

Matt

 

[egellings]

I beg to differ. I learned a lot about plumbing and rodent extermination in my 5 years working in a basement laser lab!

...and anyone else can do those common knowledge things without a specialized education requirement, too, but they will not be able to what a PhD enables you to do.

 

[Keith_W]

First, I would love to see it. Not sure it go the way you think though. Consider the investment made by audiophiles in their cables. The financial and emotional investment vs their investment in Stereophile. I think most of these audiophiles would turn on Stereophile rather than the cable manufacturers.

Sadly, I think you are right.

 

[teched58]

Matt, not fully spelling the word Religion did not fool us. Nice try though . You had us slightly confused momentarily just by bringing this topic up. We all know to steer clear from ASR’s Third Rail. So am asking nicely for everyone including you to avoid this topic. It can only serve to polarize and divide us and our attention.

Because some at Stereophile are actually members here. Let’s be respectful and treat them with dignity and civility please.

Thank you gentlemen for your cooperation and understanding. Happy Saturday Shipmates.

Illuminating. Can you tell us what are the guard rails in re civility? The charge of being "uncivil" is often used to stop criticism that can't be refuted on the facts.

Are there specific proscriptions against criticizing certain people at SP? For example, from this thread and others, it's clear that Jim Austin is fair game in his role as SP editor in chief. But what about the others? And are criticisms ever deleted without notifying the poster?

 

[Sal1950]

Because some at Stereophile are actually members here. Let’s be respectful and treat them with dignity and civility please.

Good point Adam. Unfortunately many times telling the simple truth in a straightforward and honest manner leaves
those members dirty tidy-whiteys hanging on the line for all to see. If some of us find much of what gets written there
monthly to be false representations of the truth, their support of many things we mostly all believe to be the marketing
of snake-oil products, the line crossed between what's seen as respectful or not can get very gray.

 

[Doodski]

Good point Adam. Unfortunately many times telling the simple truth in a straightforward and honest manner leaves
those members dirty tidy-whiteys hanging on the line for all to see. If some of us find much of what gets written there
monthly to be false representations of the truth, their support of many things we mostly all believe to be the marketing
of snake-oil products, the line crossed between what's seen as respectful or not can get very gray.

We should maintain the standard, keep our noses clean and not participate in their type of politics and rubbish. We can set our own standards and lead that way.

 

[Cbdb2]

For sure. But I wanted to make the finer point that even a PhD talking within her own discipline isn't necessarily trustworthy when operating outside of the scientific system.
There's a reason why sometimes otherwise good or important scientists have gone sort of cuckoo with speculations in their field, once they start operating outside the checks and balances of their discipline.

Reminds me of Oppenheimer the movie, where Oppie looks at his blackboard full of equations and says "thats impossible" and than his colleague says "we just did it next door".
Scientific theory can come up with all sorts of things that are wrong, thats why testing and measurement are just as important and the only way to be sure the theory fits the real world.

 

[AdamG]

Good point Adam. Unfortunately many times telling the simple truth in a straightforward and honest manner leaves
those members dirty tidy-whiteys hanging on the line for all to see. If some of us find much of what gets written there
monthly to be false representations of the truth, their support of many things we mostly all believe to be the marketing
of snake-oil products, the line crossed between what's seen as respectful or not can get very gray.

We understand that and we are pretty loose with enforcement. However, we can call them out and challenge their claims and pronouncements without resorting to insults and making personal attacks. If we keep it about the facts and the performance metrics that is fine. Don’t make it personal and you should be fine.