Springs Under My Speakers: What's Happening?

[Purité Audio]

I doubt whether the ‘Gaias ‘ make the slightest difference and your findings are entirely expectation bias, from sighted comparison, find a way to have both speakers at the same height and compare unsighted.
Keith

 

[Sal1950]

I think I've dialed this in nicely to my taste.

Was all this done using vinyl for a source.

 

[MattHooper]

I doubt whether the ‘Gaias ‘ make the slightest difference and your findings are entirely expectation bias, from sighted comparison, find a way to have both speakers at the same height and compare unsighted.
Keith

Doubt noted.

Are you saying you don’t even think just the fact the Gaias raised the height of the speaker could have altered the sound?
That’s plausible right?

As for an unsighted test unfortunately I don’t see how I’d pull that off. The Gaias are a pretty involved to take off and on so I can’t see any likely scenario of doing that kind of blind comparison.

 

[MattHooper]

Was all this done using vinyl for a source.

Vinyl and digital. Why?

 

[Sal1950]

Vinyl and digital. Why?

Speaker coupling into the floor and air can definitely effect the sound of vinyl.
I know you have a world class TT that should have very good isolation, but ??
Just wondering, not wanting to start any debate.

 

[dshreter]

Doubt noted.

Are you saying you don’t even think just the fact the Gaias raised the height of the speaker could have altered the sound?
That’s plausible right?

As for an unsighted test unfortunately I don’t see how I’d pull that off. The Gaias are a pretty involved to take off and on so I can’t see any likely scenario of doing that kind of blind comparison.

How much do they lift them, an inch? Unless sitting very close, this is likely a very small angular change, and should not change the tonality significantly. At a listening distance of 8ft I think it’s roughly only a half degree angular shift.

 

[MattHooper]

Speaker coupling into the floor and air can definitely effect the sound of vinyl.
I know you have a world class TT that should have very good isolation, but ??
Just wondering, not wanting to start any debate.

Oh I think I see where you where going there.
There wouldn’t be any speaker/floor interaction with the turntable. My turntable is in another room down the hallway. (And also on a platform isolated with spring-based pods).

 

[Sal1950]

My turntable is in another room down the hallway.

Damn, you really love vinyl to run down the hall for every record flip.
I guess it keeps you in shape. LOL

 

[MattHooper]

How much do they lift them, an inch? Unless sitting very close, this is likely a very small angular change, and should not change the tonality significantly. At a listening distance of 8ft I think it’s roughly only a half degree angular shift.

Raised the speakers around 2 1/2 to 2 3/4” higher.

The thing is I didn’t expect a leaner sound since the Thiels seem quite coherent over a decently wide listening area. And when the speakers are normally sitting directly on the floor if I slouch down if anything the sound gets a bit richer (but that also puts my head against the back pillow which can change the acoustics).

So, if I am indeed hearing this difference, unless raising the Thiels perhaps put me in to some null produced by the first order crossover or something, it had me wondering to what degree raising the speakers might slightly alter bass performance (or other frequencies) simply by changing their relationship to the floor?

 

[MattHooper]

Damn, you really love vinyl to run down the hall for every record flip.
I guess it keeps you in shape. LOL

Yes it sounds actually ridiculous. I didn’t know if it would work. I like a clean aesthetic for my listening room and also really didn’t have the space for all my two channel and HT amplification and source gear. So it’s in my computer room a little down the hall from my listening room.

No problem for using my digital source of course (just sit on the sofa and control with my phone). But it’s worked out just fine with the turntable. I drop the needle (which has a slow action lowering mechanism) and typically I’m in the listening seat by the time the music is playing. Even if the turntable was in the same room I’d still have to stand up, drop the needle and walk cross the room to sit down. So a few extra steps wasn’t any big deal in the end.

 

[Sal1950]

I like a clean aesthetic for my listening room

You'd hate my place. LOL

 

[Purité Audio]

Doubt noted.

Are you saying you don’t even think just the fact the Gaias raised the height of the speaker could have altered the sound?
That’s plausible right?

As for an unsighted test unfortunately I don’t see how I’d pull that off. The Gaias are a pretty involved to take off and on so I can’t see any likely scenario of doing that kind of blind comparison.

That’s the only way they might change the sound, some years ago a company who makes vibration isolation equipment for NFMs and pharma balances ESMs etc ( ie not foo snake oil) measured some speakers here and the amount of vibration transmitted to the floor and it was negligible, if you placed a naked driver on the floor … but that’s one of the reasons why loudspeakers have enclosures.
It is down to the loudspeakers designer to ensure that the enclosure doesn’t store enough enough to produce audible resonance.
Keith

 

[Thomas_A]

That’s the only way they might change the sound, some years ago a company who makes vibration isolation equipment for NFMs and pharma balances ESMs etc ( ie not foo snake oil) measured some speakers here and the amount of vibration transmitted to the floor and it was negligible, if you placed a naked driver on the floor … but that’s one of the reasons why loudspeakers have enclosures.
It is down to the loudspeakers designer to ensure that the enclosure doesn’t store enough enough to produce audible resonance.
Keith

No, it is not true. You can find situations where isolation works.

Springs Under My Speakers: What's Happening?

Regarding the audibility I gave an example with a speaker placed on my hifi equipment rack with hard and soft speaker feet (sonic design). First two sweeps are hard coupling, last two with soft coupling. Perhaps an extreme example, but it shows the principle that applies...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Sal1950]

It is down to the loudspeakers designer to ensure that the enclosure doesn’t store enough enough to produce audible resonance.

It's important for the designer to attempt to control resonance but his abilities are limited,
Anything a speaker transfers into the room via it's feet and also the air is free to excite all sort of room resonances.
My JBL's came with fairly soft rubber type feet which is IMO a much better approach than spikes or similar.
YMMV

 

[Purité Audio]

No, it is not true. You can find situations where isolation works.

Springs Under My Speakers: What's Happening?

Regarding the audibility I gave an example with a speaker placed on my hifi equipment rack with hard and soft speaker feet (sonic design). First two sweeps are hard coupling, last two with soft coupling. Perhaps an extreme example, but it shows the principle that applies...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Yup I am sure if you look hard enough you can find a really poorly designed loudspeaker and a resonant floor, but as has been stated there is still the air borne transmission.
Keith

 

[Thomas_A]

Yup I am sure if you look hard enough you can find a really poorly designed loudspeaker and a resonant floor, but as has been stated there is still the air borne transmission.
Keith

Yes, indeed you have air borne transmission that may rattle things in the room, as well as direct transmission trough floor and objects. I was just commenting on your "the only way that...".

My point being: just use soft feet of any kind. Why use spikes when they do nothing good for the sound, and in worst case, introduce audible distortion?

 

[MattHooper]

That’s the only way they might change the sound, some years ago a company who makes vibration isolation equipment for NFMs and pharma balances ESMs etc ( ie not foo snake oil) measured some speakers here and the amount of vibration transmitted to the floor and it was negligible, if you placed a naked driver on the floor … but that’s one of the reasons why loudspeakers have enclosures.
It is down to the loudspeakers designer to ensure that the enclosure doesn’t store enough enough to produce audible resonance.
Keith

I'm not convinced of the proposition that the only way a footer like this could change the sound is raising the speaker (and if it's even doing that btw, then I'm not imagining a change to the sound).

So for instance the two different types of spring based footers I used: Cheap springs from amazon and more purpose-built spring isolated speaker shelves from Townshend audio.

As I wrote early on, I used the Townshend spring pods under my turntable isolation shelf. They made a measurable difference (I posted some screen shots of vibrometer app) and a very obvious difference in stopping transmission of vibration from the floor. Right now I can put my hand on the shelf below the isolation bass, tap the floor with my foot, and feel the shelf vibrating away. Hand on the shelf being held up by the spring pods and tap the floor? Nothing felt at all.
Nor does a record skip when my behemoth son tromps through the room as it could before.

Similarly, in the case of both the cheap spring footers and the Townshend pods, the change in vibration transmission from speaker to floor was unmistakable.
Standing near the speakers when strong bass playing the floor clearly vibrated under foot. And I could routinely feel the vibration transmitting through the ottoman I put my feet on when listening, and also sometimes through the sofa. With the springs under the speakers vibration from the floor was gone. Not felt at all. Touch the speaker - it's vibrating away. Touch the floor, nothing felt at all. Nor did I feel the vibration anymore through my ottoman or sofa.

Feeling the sound less did seem to change the listening experience. As would seem plausible if one is getting not only the direct sound but also a secondary version, delayed, conducted through vibrating floor etc.

The sound felt somewhat more disconnected from the room, less dense and less punchy.

No this wasn't a scientific test, but others (including some with experience in vibration research) have chimed in this is quite plausible, I've measured that the spring footers do substantially reduce vibration transmission, and my direct experience of the effect is strong enough for me to doubt the claim vibration isolation would have no effect in of itself.

The difference between the two spring based footers I used was that the cheap ones raised up the speakers substantially. On those ones I heard the same lightening of tone, slight thinning out of the sound as when I've raised the speakers on other products. In contrast, the Townshend pods were designed to keep the speakers essentially the same height as without the bars - that is they barely raise the speakers at all. I did not hear much of this lightened tone or lack of richness when using those. However, they still seemed to produce a similar detached-from-the-room sound (and also tighter bass, speakers "disappearing" more as sound sources). So the sheer isolation effect of the pods seemed to be quite audible.

So for me the question is more: are the Isoacoustic Gaia doing *enough* decoupling that they are having a similar effect independent of just raising the speaker up? As far as I can tell, they seem to have some decoupling effect though not to the degree of the spring based footers.

I certainly wouldn't stake my life on any of this, but since it's often not easy to turn everything we try in to a fully vetted scientific experiment, as a matter of practicality I'm going on a combination of what I seem to experience and what seems plausible.

(And I still haven't come to firm conclusions on this).

 

[Purité Audio]

There has to be enough vibration transmitted to create audible resonance , and if the floor is that susceptible then it will also be excited by the air borne transmission.
Many ‘isolation’ devices marketed are based on the cup and ball which are direct couplers in the vertical place, magnets are a spring as is an inflated inner tube, if. you really want to isolate your turntable ( which really might benefit) look at rolling air diaphragms.
Keith

 

[MattHooper]

There has to be enough vibration transmitted to create audible resonance , and if the floor is that susceptible then it will also be excited by the air borne transmission.
Many ‘isolation’ devices marketed are based on the cup and ball which are direct couplers in the vertical place, magnets are a spring as is an inflated inner tube, if. you really want to isolate your turntable ( which really might benefit) look at rolling air diaphragms.
Keith

Thanks. That will probably be more helpful for someone else reading this thread. At this point I've made my choices and have used the Townshend springs under the platform. I don't see any reason to change. And they do indeed measurably isolate the turntable from floor-borne vibration, so I'm good.

 

[Sal1950]

My point being: just use soft feet of any kind. Why use spikes when they do nothing good for the sound, and in worst case, introduce audible distortion?

Agreed. I always felt the spike thing was snake-oil, unless your speakers are dancing around the room.

Many ‘isolation’ devices marketed are based on the cup and ball which are direct couplers in the vertical place, magnets are a spring as is an inflated inner tube, if. you really want to isolate your turntable ( which really might benefit) look at rolling air diaphragms.

I remember when they used to hang TT's on bungee cords from the ceiling. LOL