Sigberg Audio Manta Cardioid active speakers: Full measurements (Spinorama)

[songOVERsound]

The D&D 8C and Kii three have high distortion in the mid bass, up to 250 hz. If you are listening from 1 meter, I suppose you’re cutting it close, but for processing audio and sweeping around frequencies, it’s not looking good. You’ll make bad decisions with those values.

In some of the gear I use process audio/make music Wes Audio has an option where you can (intentionally..) add pleasing analog harmonic at fixed values at 1% and 3% and you can certainly tell a difference at 1%. Think of it as distortion on a guitar amp.. It makes gels things together a little bit. Not what I want in my speaker unless of course the music was made with the distortion - you get the idea

Crude and non-scientific example, but worth mentioning

Also, you don’t get boundary reinforcement with cardioid to augment SPL since the Klippel simulates anechoic.

There are thousands and thousands of people making good music on these speakers though.. it just so happens that when working with low frequencies, that’s when you increase volume so you can also feel the sound

The Manta is the best design imo because it goes low enough but allows the lower bass to be handled in a separate enclosure so the user can get the boundary toenforcement if they want to, or place the subs underneath the speakers. Options

 

[Purité Audio]

I have the Mantas and the 8Cs next to each other and I can assure you that unless you play deafeningly loud and I mean hearing loss in a very short period loud, I can’t hear any distortion, the hundreds of clients I have sat with both domestic and professional in hundreds of rooms both domestic and professional have never mentioned. any distortion.
Keith

 

[songOVERsound]

I have the Mantas and the 8Cs next to each other and I can assure you that unless you play deafeningly loud and I mean hearing loss in a very short period loud, I can’t hear any distortion, the hundreds of clients I have sat with both domestic and professional in hundreds of rooms both domestic and professional have never mentioned. any distortion.
Keith

Are you talking in terms of music that is already mixed and mastered? I wouldn’t think anyone would hear distortion in that context

 

[Purité Audio]

Occasionally ‘test match special’ but yes I usually use my speakers to listen to music, what do you use your’s for?
Keith

 

[Sacha]

The D&D 8C and Kii three have high distortion in the mid bass, up to 250 hz. If you are listening from 1 meter, I suppose you’re cutting it close, but for processing audio and sweeping around frequencies, it’s not looking good. You’ll make bad decisions with those values.

In some of the gear I use process audio/make music Wes Audio has an option where you can (intentionally..) add pleasing analog harmonic at fixed values at 1% and 3% and you can certainly tell a difference at 1%. Think of it as distortion on a guitar amp.. It makes gels things together a little bit. Not what I want in my speaker unless of course the music was made with the distortion - you get the idea

Crude and non-scientific example, but worth mentioning

Also, you don’t get boundary reinforcement with cardioid to augment SPL since the Klippel simulates anechoic.

There are thousands and thousands of people making good music on these speakers though.. it just so happens that when working with low frequencies, that’s when you increase volume so you can also feel the sound

The Manta is the best design imo because it goes low enough but allows the lower bass to be handled in a separate enclosure so the user can get the boundary toenforcement if they want to, or place the subs underneath the speakers. Options

This, you won't 'hear' distortion like a fuzz pedal or something, that would be a pretty terrible speaker. It will likely just mask details and clarity.

 

[sigbergaudio]

The Manta is "overpowered" (as my son would say of some new Fortnite weapon), probably beyond what most people would need. Both Keith and Erin (who tested the 8C) have said there's no audible distortion at any reasonable living room level with the 8C. So at least for consumer use I think it's somewhat of an academic exercise.

That being said, high dynamic range is certainly fun.

 

[goat76]

Both Keith and Erin (who tested the 8C) have said there's no audible distortion at any reasonable living room level with the 8C. So at least for consumer use I think it's somewhat of an academic exercise.

But we also have a member of this forum who could hear the distortion in the 8C. @dfuller can probably explain what he could hear.

 

[dfuller]

But we also have a member of this forum who could hear the distortion in the 8C. @dfuller can probably explain what he could hear.

The distortion I heard is in the domain of the midrange driver, not the woofers (which radiate conventionally, btw, and do get boundary reinforcement - the 8C is more or less designed to be close to a rear wall). Everything is tradeoffs. Cardioid midbass to me is arguably a better tradeoff than lower distortion in most situations, especially if the listener is not super clued into the sound of distortion (my tests have me able to pick out about 1% THD on program material which is generally better than most people).

The Manta has much lower distortion at the same level (to the point that I'd consider it in the vein of "low distortion speakers" like more conventional larger midfields).

 

[sigbergaudio]

But we also have a member of this forum who could hear the distortion in the 8C. @dfuller can probably explain what he could hear.

I would appreciate it if we don't use the thread related to our speakers to talk negatively about competing speakers. @dfuller @goat76 - Thank you

 

[jaakkopetteri]

The D&D 8C and Kii three have high distortion in the mid bass, up to 250 hz. If you are listening from 1 meter, I suppose you’re cutting it close, but for processing audio and sweeping around frequencies, it’s not looking good. You’ll make bad decisions with those values.

In some of the gear I use process audio/make music Wes Audio has an option where you can (intentionally..) add pleasing analog harmonic at fixed values at 1% and 3% and you can certainly tell a difference at 1%. Think of it as distortion on a guitar amp.. It makes gels things together a little bit. Not what I want in my speaker unless of course the music was made with the distortion - you get the idea

Sorry to be that guy, but did you AB test the difference? I doubt 1% of 2nd harmonic makes a significant difference, at least when it comes to clarity. 3rd harmonic, maybe.
In any case, I wouldn't make comparisons based on THD. The "HD" profile of the Kii is quite literally a 100 times better than the D&D.

 

[songOVERsound]

Occasionally ‘test match special’ but yes I usually use my speakers to listen to music, what do you use your’s for?
Keith

I listen to music casually but I also record and mix on hobbyist level. So the music try to make isn’t mastered and subject to loudness wars I.e. much more dynamic.

I’m sure a lot of the playback you listen to isn’t subject to loudness wars, but anything commercial that has been made since 2005ish will most likely have decisions made that choose loudness over dynamic range.

If you know of any modern music you like listening to that has less loudness, let me know! I’m always looking

 

[dfuller]

I would appreciate it if we don't use the thread related to our speakers to talk negatively about competing speakers. @dfuller @goat76 - Thank you

Updated the post.

 

[YSC]

I think 100-200hz (or even 100-300hz) being troublesome is pretty normal in most rooms.

Also, I am not sure that "nipple" implies what you think it implies. It peaks at 167hz, is that where your null is? The cardioid field of the Manta breaks apart a little bit in a narrow band, roughly 140-200hz. I've had different variations of this throughout the prototypes, some worse than others, but haven't pinpointed exactly what happens. It has to do with how the lower chamber is acoustically damped, not the enclosure itself.

But note that despite the fact that the cardioid effect is lower here, it's not gone. The level is still significantly lower than in a regular speaker. At this frequency, a traditional speaker would be down maybe 1-2dB at 180 degrees. The Manta is still down more than 4dB even at the peak. So it will still have an effect on your null.

Below is on-axis (black) and 180 degrees (faded green)

View attachment 374431

really nice looking data IMO, but I am more curious on how the ~1-2khz broad dip and 2.5-3.5khz one, are they to compensate some of the directivity error as seen in post #1? p.s. for the speaker it looks better in black IMO, but will be even better if have a choice of wood veneer to suit the theme.

 

[sigbergaudio]

really nice looking data IMO, but I am more curious on how the ~1-2khz broad dip and 2.5-3.5khz one, are they to compensate some of the directivity error as seen in post #1? p.s. for the speaker it looks better in black IMO, but will be even better if have a choice of wood veneer to suit the theme.

Hi, thank you! I discussed the 1-2khz dip here (with some discussion after that post):

Sigberg Audio Manta Cardioid active speakers: Full measurements (Spinorama)

Since every system needs subwoofers, kudos to Sigberg for actually addressing this with an actual "satellite plus subwoofer system." Since the advent of subwoofers, bookshelves/standmount speakers should never bother to address frequencies

www.audiosciencereview.com

Long story short, it's to compensate for off-axis behaviour.

With regards to color, that will always be a matter of taste, those who have seen the white in the flesh find it to look very cool, all the different details of the speaker stands out in a very different way, and the gray fabric in the ports accentuates it very well too. We can make custom finish and build that to order (will have a long lead time).

 

[Holmz]

…

Impulse response (measured at 2m distance in anechoic chamber):
View attachment 322660

Are you happy with that impulse repsonse?

 

[sigbergaudio]

Are you happy with that impulse repsonse?

That feels like a trick question. Do you have concerns?

 

[richard12511]

Hi, thank you! I discussed the 1-2khz dip here (with some discussion after that post):

Sigberg Audio Manta Cardioid active speakers: Full measurements (Spinorama)

Since every system needs subwoofers, kudos to Sigberg for actually addressing this with an actual "satellite plus subwoofer system." Since the advent of subwoofers, bookshelves/standmount speakers should never bother to address frequencies

www.audiosciencereview.com

Long story short, it's to compensate for off-axis behaviour.

With regards to color, that will always be a matter of taste, those who have seen the white in the flesh find it to look very cool, all the different details of the speaker stands out in a very different way, and the gray fabric in the ports accentuates it very well too. We can make custom finish and build that to order (will have a long lead time).

The White's are gorgeous! Then again I love the look of most other white monitors(Genelec Ones, D&D, Grimm). Something about the contrast with the black drivers just works very well for my tastes.

 

[Holmz]

That feels like a trick question. Do you have concerns?

Well it goes up, and then negative.
Most people do not seem to care a lot about the impulse response, compared to frequency response and directivity…
So maybe I am in a minority?

 

[sigbergaudio]

Well it goes up, and then negative.
Most people do not seem to care a lot about the impulse response, compared to frequency response and directivity…
So maybe I am in a minority?

I think most people don't care (or choose not to care) about that because an impulse response is pretty difficult to analyze, especially when one doesn't know how it has been measured. What do you conclude by the fact that it goes into the positive and then the negative, and how do you figure this is a bad thing?