Sigberg Audio Manta (12" wideband cardioid active speakers) development thread

[sigbergaudio]

..and to explain a bit about the process: It's of course not just about measurements, listening sessions are a crucial and major part of the development. The speakers go through countless iterations of crossover/DSP configuration, and basically all iterations has one version based on the measurements, and a subsequent variant "By ear".

This means I first tune them based on measurements on- and off-axis (attempting to balance the two), then I listen for a few days and do additional adjustments based on what I hear. Then perhaps something is difficult to get perfect, so I measure again to help understand what the problem is, do some adjustments based on the measurements, and then go back to listening and additional adjustments based on the listening sessions. This way the response is continuously balanced based both on on objective data and real listening impressions over time, and across a broad range of music genres.

 

[mmi]

These look incredible! Great work!

 

[sigbergaudio]

These look incredible! Great work!

Thank you, much appreciated!

 

[sigbergaudio]

Possibly next design iteration on the baffle ports:

Testing in progress:

 

[bogart]

Possibly next design iteration on the baffle ports:

Testing in progress:

Love the rendering! These are exciting to watch come together.

 

[sigbergaudio]

Today we're testing to allow the 12" midbass in Manta a bit more wiggle room in the lower frequencies. The cardioid effect is relatively powerful now, but it fades away when the subwoofers take over. Manta rolls off naturally with a -3dB point in-room at around 90hz by design. But I've now changed the tuning so the roll-off is more gradual, allowing the cardioid effect to be present at a slightly lower frequency. The final tuning will of course be designed into presets allowing you to just plug and play if you have both Manta and Sigberg Audio subwoofers.

It sounds promising so far, and gives a slight increase in punch and attack even at moderate listening levels. Especially noticeable in percussion on older rock. "JBL and Klipsch killer!" was the comment of one visitor after a couple of AC/DC tracks. Manta is of course much more than that, but they definitely contribute with an urge to headbang on the right music!

 

[dc655321]

It sounds promising so far, and gives a slight increase in punch and attack even at moderate listening levels. Especially noticeable in percussion on older rock. "JBL and Klipsch killer!" was the comment of one visitor after a couple of AC/DC tracks.

Difficult to discern "killer", or almost any other attributes without angular measurements of SPL (at least 0-180 deg).
Cool story though!

 

[sigbergaudio]

Difficult to discern "killer", or almost any other attributes without angular measurements of SPL (at least 0-180 deg).
Cool story though!

A number of measurements have been shared throughout this thread, but sure, there can always be more. I won't have access to a Klippel until after summer, so more to come in due time. Since there will likely be some design revisions on the baffle ports/vents, we may not do a full set of measurements until the next prototype revision.

 

[Spkrdctr]

Difficult to discern "killer", or almost any other attributes without angular measurements of SPL (at least 0-180 deg).
Cool story though!

I think the employees of Klipsch and JBL are glad that they are really not killers! Makes it hard to go into work knowing that someone is after them...........

 

[sigbergaudio]

To clarify this was a comment of a visitor, not my words. I guess the point was that the Mantas will probably appeal to people who enjoy Klipsch and JBL, in the sense that they sound very engaging with music that have punch and drive (rock etc).

And perhaps me and my visitor were stereotyping JBL/Klipsch owners here, so in that case I apologize.

 

[Absolute]

My JBL M2's are offended. And dead. Mostly offended.

 

[Spkrdctr]

To clarify this was a comment of a visitor, not my words. I guess the point was that the Mantas will probably appeal to people who enjoy Klipsch and JBL, in the sense that they sound very engaging with music that have punch and drive (rock etc).

And perhaps me and my visitor were stereotyping JBL/Klipsch owners here, so in that case I apologize.

Well, you know around here we have to inject humor every once in awhile. The engineers seem to get all serious and talk MATH! That is a conversation stopper!

 

[sigbergaudio]

Well, you know around here we have to inject humor every once in awhile. The engineers seem to get all serious and talk MATH! That is a conversation stopper!

I should have known better than to mention anecdotal evidence on ASR.

 

[tomtoo]

Well, you know around here we have to inject humor every once in awhile. The engineers seem to get all serious and talk MATH! That is a conversation stopper!

Only if they use formulars.

 

[sigbergaudio]

I don't think I've written much about WHY we're building the Manta, and obviously there are a number of reasons why that came to be. But I was reminded of one of the reasons yesterday, after setting up the Sigberg Audio SBS.1 speakers in order to test the new Antimode X2.

One of the reasons behind building the Manta is simply attention. Not just attention around Manta itself, but in the form of brand awareness, and the other products as well. When you first see the SBS.1 speakers, I can understand how some will think "boring bookshelf speaker". This is in some part intentional, they were designed to be minimalist. To allow you to put two speakers and a subwoofer in a living room and get big sound without a lot of visual impact. But due to their small size and neutral looks, they're easy to underestimate. When you fail to understand the massive difference in dynamic capability in a 2.5-way speaker designed to play with a subwoofer as opposed to the traditional 2-way speaker it resembles. They look similar, but it's just a different league alltogether.

But as a new manufacturer who builds a somewhat anonymous product, it's easy to be underestimated. That's why the idea came to make a speaker that was "over the top" in more ways than one. Something with very high sound quality, unique solutions, striking design and with a midbass capacity beyond belief. So the opposite of the SBS.1 speakers then? Not really.

Because now we've arrived at the fact that I was reminded of when I set up the SBS.1 speakers again in our demo room yesterday: The fact that you get A LOT of the performance from the Manta in SBS.1! The tonality, the sound, and sound quality is immediately recognizable. The coax driver is the same, the design criteria and design goals are largely similar. The focus on mid bass capacity is present in both models. To quote James in the Audioholics review, the SBS.1 sounds terrific!

I obviously hope a lot of people will purchase the Manta when it is released. But I also hope there will be a trickle down effect. That some people will find that they can't afford the Manta, or want something with a design that is less ..loud. And due to the Manta, the SBS.1 will be harder to pass by or underestimate. People will no longer look at the SBS.1 and think "boring bookshelf", they will think "Hey, isn't that the manufacturer that makes the Manta? I want to know more!"

Time will show how it all pans out!

 

[ooheadsoo]

If i was a manufacturer I'd not be concerned about the tough but fair criticism, because as you say you those issues can be addressed to make a better product, the real issue is with incorrect criticism, how many people would rant at these for having no bass, completely missing the design goal, and then the thread descend into pointless back and forth, there is much more of this than is helpful here. I see this an issue for the site, but I don't have a solution.

It's not just "many" people, Amir is upfront on his philosophy that speakers should be able to play satisfactorily on their own without a subwoofer. Hard to say how an ASR review will pan out.

 

[ryanosaur]

I see both sides of this argument. The Concept Sigberg is putting forth is novel, unique. It is not without its merits.
The AH review of the SBS.1 was very positive. Same with the separate review of the Sub.
I wish there was a way they could have been measured in combination to show the full range effect. As it stands, this concept breaks what I'll call the standard model for reviews. As long as it is understood that the gear is absolutely meant to be used in conjunction with Subs, it frankly shouldn't matter.

It's not a paradigm shift in the manner of Copernicus...
...but it is a shift from the norm.

I would love to be able to try them out!
As it stands, I roll my full range towers at 80 to my subs that are placed in-room to best effect rather than being on the front wall. It's not much different.

 

[Everett T]

It's not just "many" people, Amir is upfront on his philosophy that speakers should be able to play satisfactorily on their own without a subwoofer. Hard to say how an ASR review will pan out.

I'm not sure that's his philosophy, especially when the design doesn't call for it. His in wall HT installs would be a good example of those speakers that must have a sub.

 

[sigbergaudio]

I see both sides of this argument. The Concept Sigberg is putting forth is novel, unique. It is not without its merits.
The AH review of the SBS.1 was very positive. Same with the separate review of the Sub.
I wish there was a way they could have been measured in combination to show the full range effect. As it stands, this concept breaks what I'll call the standard model for reviews. As long as it is understood that the gear is absolutely meant to be used in conjunction with Subs, it frankly shouldn't matter.

It's not a paradigm shift in the manner of Copernicus...
...but it is a shift from the norm.

I would love to be able to try them out!
As it stands, I roll my full range towers at 80 to my subs that are placed in-room to best effect rather than being on the front wall. It's not much different.

I actually discussed with Amir trying to measure both the SBS.1 and 10D sub on the Klippel by having the speaker on top of the sub. But it's hard to predict the diffraction effects and other things of such a configuration, and doing both with and without to eliminate/detect such effects meant a lot of work (each run takes several hours).

Here's at least a simple frequency response showing the 10D and SBS.1 summing together in a ground plane measurement outside, showing that what you essentially get is a combined response surpassing most floor standers (not surprisingly for those familiar with well integrated subwoofers). The upside here is that they're designed to play together so you don't need to fiddle with getting the crossover right. You don't even need a system with subwoofer support as the speakers are highpassed by design.

 

[Satx]

I’m not a regular on ASR, but I do a lot of reading and I’ve gone through the entire Manta thread. Very cool looking and performing speaker! Thanks for sharing the process with us!

I’ve been trying to glean all I can about resistive, passive Cardioid speakers lately for my next planned build (non commercial). If you don’t mind, can you share if the response of the drivers shows a typical dipole peak and roll off at lower frequencies or does it simply act as an aperiodic enclosure with a corresponding impedance peak at resonance reduction? Do you have to boost the low end to account for any early roll off compared to the same size sealed enclosure?

And some unsolicited advice! I think they would look nicer if the felt in the front vents was more flush with the baffle, a bit slicker. Maybe with a convex mesh mounted from the inside. And even with the waveguide effects of the coax, you may be getting some diffraction, so It might also make your off axis measurements cleaner and follow the on axis even better. The sides look great as is to me.

Thanks!