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Sigberg Audio Saranna (fullrange, cardioid active floorstander) development thread

Looks nice.
What is the cardioid range?

Currently the bass drivers are crossed over at 135-140hz, and they are in traditional ported chamber. So that means the cardioid stops around there at the lowest. I don't have proper measurements of the cardioid yet since it's still winter here and I need to go outside or to an anechoic chamber to do that.
 
@Purité Audio asked me a question privately, but while typing out the answer I realized it was a quite an interesting question highlighting some design differences of all our speakers, so I decided to answer here instead. :)

The question was basically if I heard any difference in tonality between the old and new coax. And if so, to what degree did I think this was due to differences in driver size, baffle width or other things. In the same context Keith also said he had previously noticed a "thinner" sound in one speaker versus another (other brands), and had pondered the reason.

First of all, as a general observation, "thinner" can mean many things. It's hard to know exactly what people mean with regards to frequency range when they describe sound. Even when talking about bass quality I can sometimes hear two people discuss and get confused, because one person is focusing on pretty deep bass, maybe 30-50hz, while the other talk about say 80-150hz, and they think they are talking about the same thing. :)


That aside, I would say that the tonality between the Saranna and the current speakers that use the "old" coax is pretty similar. One obvious reason for that is that I have tuned all the speakers, and I'm pretty conscious of how both the midbass and the midrange "should" sound (in my opinion) with regards to tonality, fullness and sense of body to the sound.

I think with the Manta one will find the midrange and male vocals and stuff like that to sound fuller and deeper than with the SBS.1, but the difference is quite subtle. They're tuned to have the same tonality, and while as 12" will of course deliver more effortlessly and perhaps also to some extent sound fuller, I think there are some sighted bias at play as well when you sit and look at the Manta compared to the SBS.1. :) Keith also mention baffle size, and that can perhaps have a bigger impact than the driver itself, since the wider baffle will give more directivity / sound radiating forwards toward the listener in the lower midrange than with a more narrow baffle.

In this regard the Saranna floorstander is somewhere in between. The SBS.1 is just 19cm wide, while the Saranna is 26cm, and the Manta is 36cm. Also, both the Manta and the Saranna have the cardioid as well that contribute to the same (more energy towards the listener in the lower mids).

There's also a pretty big difference in design here, if I am correct in assuming the "thinness" is a midrange / lower midrange aspect perhaps pretty low in frequency. Both the SBS.1 and the Manta has help from a dedicated midrange driver. So in those designs it's not only the coax that is contributing in this frequency range. In the SBS.1 both the coax and the midrange play down to 90hz, while with the Manta you have a dedicated 12" from 600hz and down. With the Saranna you have significantly larger coax, but it has to do all the work by itself all the way down to ~150hz, so that extra real estate is needed.


So in summary, I think there is plenty of punchy and meaty sound in the Saranna. I can't imagine anyone describing the sound as "thin", in the same way as I doubt the SBS or the Manta would be described as such. The reason is that with all three designs there are explicit focus on enough capacity and energy in the upper bass / lower mids.

But how this is achieved is, perhaps interestingly, different in all three speakers. :)
 
Measurement of the day: ~15 degrees off-axis, 100-20,000hz (the bump at 2-300hz is room induced). Currently experimenting in the 1-6khz area to see how much energy I can have here without ending up with a harsh signature on less than stellar recordings.

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The overall tonal balance and sound signature is now not too far from Manta with subwoofers. These speakers love rhytmic and complex music like rock / hard rock, and putting on something like Volbeat or Rammstein sounds full, rich and clean rather than thin, messy and chaotic (as with way too many speakers). The bass is tight and deep and the midbass present and punchy. Guitars and rock vocals are in your face, raspy and tough without being harsh.
As a bass junkie myself, if I may for subjective impressions, I´d use two tracks to test the detail on the lower region. Breathe from The Prodity is a phenomenal track to saturate the lower region and check how responsive the system is. Another good option to saturate the lower frequencies are your countrymen Blood Red Throne. Mary Whispers of Death (the Monument of Death version in particular) should give you a good glimpse of how far can you push the system´s low end.

If you´re looking for detail on the lower region, Phobophile from Cryptosy adds a massive insane drumming elements delivered with precission and speed. A good system (and I´m not doubting yours!) should give you all the detail in drums, kick drums and all the components of Flo Mournier´s drum kit.
 
As a bass junkie myself, if I may for subjective impressions, I´d use two tracks to test the detail on the lower region. Breathe from The Prodity is a phenomenal track to saturate the lower region and check how responsive the system is. Another good option to saturate the lower frequencies are your countrymen Blood Red Throne. Mary Whispers of Death (the Monument of Death version in particular) should give you a good glimpse of how far can you push the system´s low end.

If you´re looking for detail on the lower region, Phobophile from Cryptosy adds a massive insane drumming elements delivered with precission and speed. A good system (and I´m not doubting yours!) should give you all the detail in drums, kick drums and all the components of Flo Mournier´s drum kit.

Prodigy has lots of cool tracks to test the bottom end. Cryptosy was an unknown band for me, tested it now. I must admit I'm not a huge fan of growling vocals, but otherwise cool track, pretty intense drumming. :)
 
Prodigy has lots of cool tracks to test the bottom end. Cryptosy was an unknown band for me, tested it now. I must admit I'm not a huge fan of growling vocals, but otherwise cool track, pretty intense drumming. :)
Artistic interest aside, I suggested it due to the ample variety of low frequency sounds it has. If the point is testing bass, you have a variety of it there in spades.
 
These little buggers were introduced in the signal path yesterday. A passive crossover component! :eek:

1709815807890.png
 
And the reason?

The resistor has been introduced in series with the tweeter, as the compression driver has very high sensitivity. This increases the impedance as seen by the amplifier, and lowers the sensitivity by 5dB, making it a better match to the other drivers from a gain perspective. This could have been done digitally, but by doing it this way the inherent noise level and hiss is reduced, and the sound level of "pops" or other noises from on/off on the amplifier or connected preamps/sources will also be reduced.

Beyond that, the introduction of the resistor and the increased impedance will change the phase relation between current and voltage, affecting the way the driver distorts (theoretically in a good way). Finally, the impedance curve is such that you will get slightly higher attentuation in the lower frequencies (as is typical with tweeters), so in this way you get a natural gain/extension of the highest frequencies.
 
Resistance is futile.
Keith
 
@sigbergaudio Any idea yet on price of the Saranna?

That is a very difficult question for a couple of reasons. First of all it is still early days, so the complexity of actual commercial production is hard to predict. The second is that prices of everything surrounding production like raw materials and logistics have increased pretty signifcantly the last few years. And since the release date of the speakers are likely 12-24 months in the future, it's simply impossible to have the full picture of cost, since it will have changed before the speakers are available. Since not all components are sourced locally, things like currency exchange rates also affect the final cost.

A guesstimate is an export price somewhere around 15,000USD / 14,000EUR + import taxes and VAT (almost nothing in the US, but up to 20-25% in some European countries) with the current exchange rates. Fluctuations in currency and changes in the global economy (affecting logistics etc) could swing that guess probably up to 20% either way. I also haven't made up my mind about how fancy the cabinet will end up, so that could affect the final price too. But that's a ballpark at least. Full disclaimer that for unknown reasons this may end up being completely wrong. :)
 
That is a very difficult question for a couple of reasons. First of all it is still early days, so the complexity of actual commercial production is hard to predict. The second is that prices of everything surrounding production like raw materials and logistics have increased pretty signifcantly the last few years. And since the release date of the speakers are likely 12-24 months in the future, it's simply impossible to have the full picture of cost, since it will have changed before the speakers are available. Since not all components are sourced locally, things like currency exchange rates also affect the final cost.

A guesstimate is an export price somewhere around 15,000USD / 14,000EUR + import taxes and VAT (almost nothing in the US, but up to 20-25% in some European countries) with the current exchange rates. Fluctuations in currency and changes in the global economy (affecting logistics etc) could swing that guess probably up to 20% either way. I also haven't made up my mind about how fancy the cabinet will end up, so that could affect the final price too. But that's a ballpark at least. Full disclaimer that for unknown reasons this may end up being completely wrong. :)
Not to mention the price of the resistors!
 
Not to mention the price of the resistors!

See, that's not even in my cost calculation so far! I will use this opportunity to point out that I have ordered high quality, low inductance (and thus expensive) Mox resistors from Jantzen Audio, in case any crazy people decide to disassemble them down the road hunting for cheap parts to criticize. :D
 
The resistor has been introduced in series with the tweeter, as the compression driver has very high sensitivity. This increases the impedance as seen by the amplifier, and lowers the sensitivity by 5dB, making it a better match to the other drivers from a gain perspective. This could have been done digitally, but by doing it this way the inherent noise level and hiss is reduced, and the sound level of "pops" or other noises from on/off on the amplifier or connected preamps/sources will also be reduced.

Beyond that, the introduction of the resistor and the increased impedance will change the phase relation between current and voltage, affecting the way the driver distorts (theoretically in a good way). Finally, the impedance curve is such that you will get slightly higher attentuation in the lower frequencies (as is typical with tweeters), so in this way you get a natural gain/extension of the highest frequencies.
Just a thought: Might there be a benefit in using a resistive L-pad rather than a single resistor? Having a resistor in parallel with the compression driver might make compensation for its impedance peaks easier and beneficial even with an active crossover (I do not know the circuit you are using, of course). Of course TWO resistors would be twice as expensive!
 
Just a thought: Might there be a benefit in using a resistive L-pad rather than a single resistor? Having a resistor in parallel with the compression driver might make compensation for its impedance peaks easier and beneficial even with an active crossover (I do not know the circuit you are using, of course). Of course TWO resistors would be twice as expensive!

That was considered (I also have the resistors for an L-pad configuration available), but the impedance curve is pretty smooth for the driver, and the response is actually slightly more linear with the resistor in place. There has been no added complexity (or actually any change at all) in the digital crossover after adding the resistor. Below is the response before and after (orange), the only thing that has been done is to increase the gain of the tweeter channel with 5dB to compensate for the loss in sensitivity.

1709888565953.png
 
That is a very difficult question for a couple of reasons. First of all it is still early days, so the complexity of actual commercial production is hard to predict. The second is that prices of everything surrounding production like raw materials and logistics have increased pretty signifcantly the last few years. And since the release date of the speakers are likely 12-24 months in the future, it's simply impossible to have the full picture of cost, since it will have changed before the speakers are available. Since not all components are sourced locally, things like currency exchange rates also affect the final cost.

A guesstimate is an export price somewhere around 15,000USD / 14,000EUR + import taxes and VAT (almost nothing in the US, but up to 20-25% in some European countries) with the current exchange rates. Fluctuations in currency and changes in the global economy (affecting logistics etc) could swing that guess probably up to 20% either way. I also haven't made up my mind about how fancy the cabinet will end up, so that could affect the final price too. But that's a ballpark at least. Full disclaimer that for unknown reasons this may end up being completely wrong. :)
Given the capabilities of the speaker, this isn't a bad price. Ignoring VAT and duties for now. I guess the audiophile resistor would be a $4k upcharge?

;)
 
Given the capabilities of the speaker, this isn't a bad price. Ignoring VAT and duties for now. I guess the audiophile resistor would be a $4k upcharge?

;)

Hehe, they're currently around 2USD per resistor, so I don't think they will critically effect the cost directly. But it does affect the cost and complexity of assembly and QA. So it isn't completely free either, even though it's easy to think that from the component cost alone. :)
 
It's still winter in Norway, but we got a rare glimpse of the low, evening sun today. In light like this, the radial phase plug in the compression driver is visible all the way from the listening position. Looks pretty rad. :) Sounds pretty rad too!

Disclaimer: Still photos of an early prototype, the enclosure will not look exactly like this and of course have furniture grade finish.

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I originally stated that the speaker would be cardioid from 200-250hz and up. With the new and larger coax I'm currently crossing over the bass drivers at around 140hz, so we will hopefully see cardioid behaviour at least from 150hz and up.

I have some preliminary measurements of off-axis energy, but they are indoors so not very reliable. Will share when I have something better.
 
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