Should more emphasis be given to speaker (& driver) size in reviews + what is the ethos of this site?

[Doodski]

All other things being equal, the larger driver will move more air.

I've never heard a good 15" or a 18" woof that I didn't enjoy and desire.

 

[Spkrdctr]

I've never heard a good 15" or a 18" woof that I didn't enjoy and desire.

So, contrary to popular opinion, size matters?

It ALWAYS matters!

 

[tomtoo]

I've never heard a good 15" or a 18" woof that I didn't enjoy and desire.

Yep, but on the desktop they are just not so handy.

 

[Sal1950]

So, contrary to popular opinion, size matters?

It ALWAYS matters!

Yep, but on the desktop they are just not so handy.

You just need a bigger desk! LOL

 

[sarumbear]

Two things I've been thinking about:

1. What is the ethos of this site? I've not come across a mission statement as such for this website (maybe there is one and I've missed it). Is it a repository of technical information for people who already understand FR, dispersion, distortion graphs and so on, so that they can see the measurements and immediately know what they're looking at, no extra guidance needed; or, is it also here to educate people who either do not understand or have a minimal understanding of these things, so that they may cut through the mystery/snake-oil/salesmanship when purchasing audio products and make purchases based on scientific understanding (measurements), translated by those that do understand it, into something the layman can digest.

Neither is the “ethos” of ASR. This is where equipment is tested. The results are roughly translated. If not clear questions are almost always answered by experienced or expert members.

2. Presuming the latter from above, is enough emphasis given to speaker (and mid-bass driver) size in reviews?

There are speakers that measure very well and are much lauded, but their bass reproduction (frequency and SPL) are very limited, some of the most favoured speakers under $1500 are so limited in SPL and particularly bass reproduction that they would struggle to fill a room 4x4m with sound that could provide a modest party for two people.

Speaker tests always include distortion vs level charts. That will give information about the SPL capacity of a speaker.

My layman experience (so far) is that I have not yet come across a 5" or 6" driver, however expensive or low in distortion, that can do what an 8" (or larger) can do in the bass department. This does not apply to all speakers with 8"+ drivers, of course, but there is, except in extremis, a much greater ease with which bass frequencies are played through larger drivers. Smaller speakers just tend to sound like they are struggling sooner, whether this shows in the measurements or not.

I can't explain why this is.

Allow me to cut there. The reason is you have not learned how speakers work. Stay with us and read. Education takes time, long time.

Without a sub and outside of the smallest rooms, these speakers are not so impressive. Does the typical ASR reader understand this and is enough emphasis being put on this in reviews?

I have no idea who is a typical ASR reader but there’s enough discussion here that will help interested parties to understand what you point out. As I said above ASR is not an review site per se. It’s a forum where mainly the founder, but many other members too, test equipment and analyse the outcome.

I hope this was helpful.

 

[Sal1950]

Without a sub and outside of the smallest rooms, these speakers are not so impressive. Does the typical ASR reader understand this and is enough emphasis being put on this in reviews?

There is a lot to what you put forth in that post.
"Does the typical ASR reader understand"
I would say that generally yes. A large number of the readers here have enough background in measurement to understand the implications of the numbers, but I'm sure many don't. In the world outside of ASR, I think there is a large mis-understanding of the tradeoffs and compromises made
from the use of small stand mounts. To generalize, their ability to disappear and provide outstanding imaging have made them all the rage with some audiophiles today and I think your right that enough isn't said about the trade-offs and weaknesses that comes with them.
It tends to remind of the 1960-70s when the Acoustic Suspension speakers like AR had first hit the market. Folks were all gaga over the ability they had
to go deep in the bass from such a comparatively small box. It took a couple decades (and development of bass reflex port tuning) for Hi Fi nuts to
begin to realize the negatives of the design. Today there are relatively few AS speakers on the market.

 

[riker1384]

I believe it was Paul Klipsch that said "you can't change the laws of physics".

 

[mglobe]

Neither is the “ethos” of ASR. This is where equipment is tested. The results are roughly translated. If not clear questions are almost always answered by experienced or expert members.


Speaker tests always include distortion vs level charts. That will give information about the SPL capacity of a speaker.


Allow me to cut there. The reason is you have not learned how speakers work. Stay with us and read. Education takes time, long time.


I have no idea who is a typical ASR reader but there’s enough discussion here that will help interested parties to understand what you point out. As I said above ASR is not an review site per se. It’s a forum where mainly the founder, but many other members too, test equipment and analyse the outcome.

I hope this was helpful.

Great comments.

WRT the comments on speaker/driver size, those pining for the old days (and I’m way old enough to remember them) need to keep in mind that I’m the 60’s and 70’s subwoofers really didn’t exist. Now that they do, most speakers sold, including floor standers, can likely use help from adding subs. When I made my recent purchase or R3’s I looked at the responses of the floor standers vs standmounts and decided I would likely add subs regardless, so why not buy the standmounts and plan for subs at some point. Things change.

 

[dlaloum]

Great comments.

WRT the comments on speaker/driver size, those pining for the old days (and I’m way old enough to remember them) need to keep in mind that I’m the 60’s and 70’s subwoofers really didn’t exist. Now that they do, most speakers sold, including floor standers, can likely use help from adding subs. When I made my recent purchase or R3’s I looked at the responses of the floor standers vs standmounts and decided I would likely add subs regardless, so why not buy the standmounts and plan for subs at some point. Things change.

Traditional (80's?) full range floorstanders - frequently have their -3db (sometimes -6db) in the mid 30's Hz

So you need a sub to get down to 20Hz, let alone go into subsonics

The wider the range your floor standard can handle without strain (ie: with low distortion!) - let it do what it does well!

As soon as it gets to the point where the distortion starts to rise, it needs help - that should be where the Sub comes in.

The higher the F the Sub has to go to, the more prone it is likely to get to distorting... - so yeah lots of subs are designed for HT LFE use, and go up to 120Hz - but that doesn't mean you will get optimal performance from the by going up to that F.

If you floorstanders can go cleanly down to 40Hz - then that is where the Sub should pick up.

Sub / Satellite systems have been around a long time, and like any speaker setup - the problems are always at the crossover (!!)

Where and how you crossover, will have a definite impact on sound quality - and the crossover point has to be driven by your speakers capabilities.

Using systems like Dirac can help a lot, as it provides some automation and ease of use around the process of measuring your speaker capabilities and determining where the mains should "give up" and where the Sub should "take up"...

 

[mglobe]

Traditional (80's?) full range floorstanders - frequently have their -3db (sometimes -6db) in the mid 30's Hz

So you need a sub to get down to 20Hz, let alone go into subsonics

The wider the range your floor standard can handle without strain (ie: with low distortion!) - let it do what it does well!

As soon as it gets to the point where the distortion starts to rise, it needs help - that should be where the Sub comes in.

The higher the F the Sub has to go to, the more prone it is likely to get to distorting... - so yeah lots of subs are designed for HT LFE use, and go up to 120Hz - but that doesn't mean you will get optimal performance from the by going up to that F.

If you floorstanders can go cleanly down to 40Hz - then that is where the Sub should pick up.

Sub / Satellite systems have been around a long time, and like any speaker setup - the problems are always at the crossover (!!)

Where and how you crossover, will have a definite impact on sound quality - and the crossover point has to be driven by your speakers capabilities.

Using systems like Dirac can help a lot, as it provides some automation and ease of use around the process of measuring your speaker capabilities and determining where the mains should "give up" and where the Sub should "take up"...

More great input! I’ve already got Dirac up and running and will soon be using it to integrate subs.

 

[RayDunzl]

My 12 inch woofers cross over at 180Hz to my 15x48 inch tweeters.

Do I win this size spec competition?

 

[Sal1950]

My 12 inch woofers cross over at 180Hz to my 15x48 inch tweeters.

Do I win this size spec competition?

NO

 

[Sal1950]

Without a sub and outside of the smallest rooms, these speakers are not so impressive. Does the typical ASR reader understand this and is enough emphasis being put on this in reviews?

There is a lot to what you put forth in that post.
"Does the typical ASR reader understand"
I would say that generally yes. A large number of the readers here have enough background in measurement to understand the implications of the numbers, but I'm sure many don't. In the world outside of ASR, I think there is a large mis-understanding of the tradeoffs and compromises made

A good case in point supporting our points is this thread blaming the amps for lack of bass in the Elac 6.2s.
Notice posters are all newbie's here.

SMSL AO200, Lack of bass punch/definition with Elac debut 6.2's​

 

[Spkrdctr]

A good case in point supporting our points is this thread blaming the amps for lack of bass in the Elac 6.2s.
Notice posters are all newbie's here.

SMSL AO200, Lack of bass punch/definition with Elac debut 6.2's​

Sal, I could not resist. They mentioned the Audiophiles dream sub. You pointed me in that direction............

 

[Digby]

There is a lot to what you put forth in that post.
"Does the typical ASR reader understand"

Hey, Sal, is this the first time we've agreed on something?

Maybe I was wrong to say typical ASR reader, that probably gives the impression of someone knowledgeable, I would more say the impression someone arriving at this website for the first time would get as to which speakers are "the best". The Neumann KH80 and Genelec 8030C would come recommended by many and the general impression (from reviews and posters) would be they are excellent speakers.

They are, but within very limited situations. You will likely not want to have a modest house party (3+ people) with these speakers. You will not want to hear them sans sub (missing too much of the lower frequencies). You will not fill a room much more than 4m x 4m with sound from these speakers. This is important information, stuff which, as you Americans say, might be better off being put "front and centre".

These small speakers will sound worse than larger, less linear ones in a situation where they are in a modest sized room, are expected to play music without a sub and for more than a few people. These are things that IMO need to be given more emphasis, if reviews are to benefit to widest group of people.

Allow me to cut there. The reason is you have not learned how speakers work. Stay with us and read. Education takes time, long time.

Am I wrong about what I said regarding driver size and bass ability. Remember that I am talking without help from subwoofer/s.

I have learned by ear, so to speak. Technically, you're right, I have not learned, but life is too short and if I wanted to learn faster, I would dip into books sooner than read here. I think the forum is often a good example of a little knowledge being a dangerous thing.

If everyone who uses this website has to be almost as well versed as Amir, then few will reach that point. That is why I'm interested in the nature of the site. I think most people are willing to learn, but it takes a lot of time and energy, and if reader/viewership is to increase, then a bit more needs to be done about taking all the measurements and translating it for Joe Audiophile IMO. Amir has done some very informative videos on various subjects that have been interesting and explanatory, but I think more could be done to pull it all together, rather than having to 'do your own homework'.

It is his decision in the end, but I think there could be a useful middle ground between subjective reviews (good, bad or otherwise) in Hi-Fi mags and the 90% measurements/10% guidance available here. If this site is by nerds for nerds, so be it, but I think Amir might be missing a trick and an opportunity to bring more away from voodoo and snake oil.

Which leads me back to the main point:

Small speakers with limited SPL/bass seem to being given precedence over larger speakers with somewhat greater non-linearity (in FR, for example), but much greater bass and SPL capabilities. Save the very smallest rooms, the larger speakers will often present as audibly better speakers, because they produce more of the lower frequency range and at louder levels. Smaller speakers, when reviewed, are being 'saved' by the addition of a hypothetical subwoofer, but this is not a given and is artificially (unscientifically?) boosting speakers that are limited in their low end capabilities (but more linear within said limits) above their true position, when used as standalone speakers.

Should points be docked from a speaker for not reaching -3db at 40hz and should more emphasis be made of this lack of ability, for the benefit of those who cannot read and interpret the charts particularly well - this will be a not insubstantial number of people reading this website.

 

[tomtoo]

Hey, Sal, is this the first time we've agreed on something?

Maybe I was wrong to say typical ASR reader, that probably gives the impression of someone knowledgeable, I would more say the impression someone arriving at this website for the first time would get as to which speakers are "the best". The Neumann KH80 and Genelec 8030C would come recommended by many and the general impression (from reviews and posters) would be they are excellent speakers.

They are, but within very limited situations. You will likely not want to have a modest house party (3+ people) with these speakers. You will not want to hear them sans sub (missing too much of the lower frequencies). You will not fill a room much more than 4m x 4m with sound from these speakers. This is important information, stuff which, as you Americans say, might be better off being put "front and centre".

These small speakers will sound worse than larger, less linear ones in a situation where they are in a modest sized room, are expected to play music without a sub and for more than a few people. These are things that IMO need to be given more emphasis, if reviews are to benefit to widest group of people.

Am I wrong about what I said regarding driver size and bass ability. Remember that I am talking without help from subwoofer/s.

I have learned by ear, so to speak. Technically, you're right, I have not learned, but life is too short and if I wanted to learn faster, I would dip into books sooner than read here. I think the forum is often a good example of a little knowledge being a dangerous thing.

If everyone who uses this website has to be almost as well versed as Amir, then few will reach that point. That is why I'm interested in the nature of the site. I think most people are willing to learn, but it takes a lot of time and energy, and if reader/viewership is to increase, then a bit more needs to be done about taking all the measurements and translating it for Joe Audiophile IMO. Amir has done some very informative videos on various subjects that have been interesting and explanatory, but I think more could be done to pull it all together, rather than having to 'do your own homework'.

It is his decision in the end, but I think there could be a useful middle ground between subjective reviews (good, bad or otherwise) in Hi-Fi mags and the 90% measurements/10% guidance available here. If this site is by nerds for nerds, so be it, but I think Amir might be missing a trick and an opportunity to bring more away from voodoo and snake oil.

Which leads me back to the main point:

Small speakers with limited SPL/bass seem to being given precedence over larger speakers with somewhat greater non-linearity (in FR, for example), but much greater bass and SPL capabilities. Save the very smallest rooms, the larger speakers will often present as audibly better speakers, because they produce more of the lower frequency range and at louder levels. Smaller speakers, when reviewed, are being 'saved' by the addition of a hypothetical subwoofer, but this is not a given and is artificially (unscientifically?) boosting speakers that are limited in their low end capabilities (but more linear within said limits) above their true position, when used as standalone speakers.

Should points be docked from a speaker for not reaching -3db at 40hz and should more emphasis be made of this lack of ability, for the benefit of those who cannot read and interpret the charts particularly well - this will be a not insubstantial number of people reading this website.

I see a 5inch always as a desktop speaker. It will not make fun in a big room. But thats my opinion. Others think different, couse there way to use, or there expectations are just different. I think thats hard to communicate in a easy way. It all depends how much spl you like to reach in a given distance with a for you acceptable thd. And thats hard to communicate with just words. Who should look in your head and say oh 85dB at 4m is great for him? At the end you have to decide what fits for you, there is many info on ASR. I mean the best speaker is not good, if i cant hear em at my listening position thats 10m away, how could they rate a kh80dsp so well? Hell its a desktop speaker. And others use them happy in there small room. Different expectation, different use...how to rate this?

 

[dfuller]

Am I wrong about what I said regarding driver size and bass ability.

No, it's just more complicated than that. You're right, there is no replacement for displacement - but modern designs like the Purifi midwoofers can have exceptionally long linear excursion, so they are doing the displacement thing.

If we were talking about an era where linear excursion was much more limited, then yes - smaller drivers will run out of steam sooner.

Small speakers with limited SPL/bass seem to being given precedence over larger speakers with somewhat greater non-linearity (in FR, for example), but much greater bass and SPL capabilities.

That's because with the exception of a few big 3-ways (KH420, 8361A, F328Be, etc) and giant 2-way horn loaded systems (JBL 4349) very few are tested - because they're big and heavy to ship, never mind move!

 

[Sokel]

Sometimes when I play with my PC's Fostex's (PMO.4c) with their 4 inch woofer I get up and wonder in the room doing something else there are some random points in the room that they sound decent.By luck I guess,because normally is a joke.
I think size chooses size,room and speaker respectively.

 

[Digby]

No, it's just more complicated than that. You're right, there is no replacement for displacement - but modern designs like the Purifi midwoofers can have exceptionally long linear excursion, so they are doing the displacement thing.

Right, but then Purifi drivers are both expensive and very unusual (in fewer than 1% of all speakers?). The exception that proves the rule.

A speaker isn't just driver size, but baffle/cabinet size also, doesn't this also have a role to play, a la port tuning & directivity.

 

[mglobe]

Hey, Sal, is this the first time we've agreed on something?

Maybe I was wrong to say typical ASR reader, that probably gives the impression of someone knowledgeable, I would more say the impression someone arriving at this website for the first time would get as to which speakers are "the best". The Neumann KH80 and Genelec 8030C would come recommended by many and the general impression (from reviews and posters) would be they are excellent speakers.

They are, but within very limited situations. You will likely not want to have a modest house party (3+ people) with these speakers. You will not want to hear them sans sub (missing too much of the lower frequencies). You will not fill a room much more than 4m x 4m with sound from these speakers. This is important information, stuff which, as you Americans say, might be better off being put "front and centre".

These small speakers will sound worse than larger, less linear ones in a situation where they are in a modest sized room, are expected to play music without a sub and for more than a few people. These are things that IMO need to be given more emphasis, if reviews are to benefit to widest group of people.

Am I wrong about what I said regarding driver size and bass ability. Remember that I am talking without help from subwoofer/s.

I have learned by ear, so to speak. Technically, you're right, I have not learned, but life is too short and if I wanted to learn faster, I would dip into books sooner than read here. I think the forum is often a good example of a little knowledge being a dangerous thing.

If everyone who uses this website has to be almost as well versed as Amir, then few will reach that point. That is why I'm interested in the nature of the site. I think most people are willing to learn, but it takes a lot of time and energy, and if reader/viewership is to increase, then a bit more needs to be done about taking all the measurements and translating it for Joe Audiophile IMO. Amir has done some very informative videos on various subjects that have been interesting and explanatory, but I think more could be done to pull it all together, rather than having to 'do your own homework'.

It is his decision in the end, but I think there could be a useful middle ground between subjective reviews (good, bad or otherwise) in Hi-Fi mags and the 90% measurements/10% guidance available here. If this site is by nerds for nerds, so be it, but I think Amir might be missing a trick and an opportunity to bring more away from voodoo and snake oil.

Which leads me back to the main point:

Small speakers with limited SPL/bass seem to being given precedence over larger speakers with somewhat greater non-linearity (in FR, for example), but much greater bass and SPL capabilities. Save the very smallest rooms, the larger speakers will often present as audibly better speakers, because they produce more of the lower frequency range and at louder levels. Smaller speakers, when reviewed, are being 'saved' by the addition of a hypothetical subwoofer, but this is not a given and is artificially (unscientifically?) boosting speakers that are limited in their low end capabilities (but more linear within said limits) above their true position, when used as standalone speakers.

Should points be docked from a speaker for not reaching -3db at 40hz and should more emphasis be made of this lack of ability, for the benefit of those who cannot read and interpret the charts particularly well - this will be a not insubstantial number of people reading this website.

I was right with you up to the idea that subs are an artificial boost. Are they really any different from making the box bigger and stuffing a big woofer in the speaker? Or are the actually superior because you can use them to address room modes in a way that could be superior to a bigger box approach?