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Should more emphasis be given to speaker (& driver) size in reviews + what is the ethos of this site?

puppet

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sarumbear ... you have to read the quoted portion of my post.
 

Sokel

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What you forget here is that in your example those 12" drivers aren't doing just subwoofer duty. More likely they are being crossed to a mid in the 500hz range if 3-way. Can't do that with a sub that is detached from the main speaker location.
Exactly.
Unfortunately we can locate their freqs.
 
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Digby

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More overhead is better, sure. And what typically provides - by far - the most overhead for bass frequencies? Powered subs (sorry, couldn't help myself).
We're not in disagreement about the subs (I do agree with you), my point is what does this have to do with the Klippel based reviews.

Does Joe Audiophile know something along the lines of (say in your head in the voice of Amir....apologies in advance, Amir):

Hi, we're ASR, we like speakers with linear FR and good off axis response, we don't usually mind if they're lacking bass frequencies, because we always recommend they are paired with subwoofers, please read all our reviews as such. If you don't use subs, some smaller speakers may not suit you and, for reasons of bass reproduction, you may prefer a larger model to a smaller one that we have rated more highly.

I think there is too much reliance on Joe Audiophile knowing these things in advance.
 

sarumbear

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sarumbear

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Exactly.
Unfortunately we can locate their freqs.
Do you mean you can locate a sub’s position within around a 2m wide area in between the mains?
 

puppet

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?????

I was replying to the fella that determined adding a sub to a smaller bookshelf trumps a floor stander with 12" woofers. The larger loudspeakers aren't using the 12" as just subs. In that case you'd be subtracting from the lower mid range Sd. A remote sub can't add that back in.
 
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sarumbear

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mj30250

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We're not in disagreement about the subs (I do agree with you), my point is what does this have to do with the Klippel based reviews.

Does Joe Audiophile know something along the lines of (say in your head in the voice of Amir....apologies in advance, Amir):

Hi, we're ASR, we like speakers with linear FR and good off axis response, we don't usually mind if they're lacking bass frequencies, because we always recommend they are paired with subwoofers, please read all our reviews as such. If you don't use subs, some smaller speakers may not suit you and, for reasons of bass reproduction, you may prefer a larger model to a smaller one that we have rated more highly.

I think there is too much reliance on Joe Audiophile knowing these things in advance.
I don't disagree with including some sort of disclaimer along those lines (but lose the larger / smaller language - there are plenty of "small" speakers capable of pounding out significantly more bass than many larger ones). I don't really feel it's necessary, though, as IMO, based on the level data this site provides, at least a cursory understanding of these matters should be a reasonable expectation of readers. Anyone who gets lost is certainly free to ask questions and seek out some of the pinned videos that help explain it.
 
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Digby

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I don't really feel it's necessary, though, as IMO, based on the level data this site provides, at least a cursory understanding of these matters should be a reasonable expectation of readers. Anyone who gets lost is certainly free to ask questions and seek out some of the pinned videos that help explain it.
I don't agree, I could well do more reading, but I think more than a cursory understanding is needed to have the full benefit of what is presented here. 85% of those visiting the site will be in need of some help deciphering what is presented. It is a question of where Amir wants to go with ASR, but I think there a greater number of people here pretending to know an awful lot, than actually do an awful lot. I imagine he knows that better than most.
 

Wseaton

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Its not driver size as much as its mass that dictates clean spl at lower frequencies. Larger drivers typically have more mass than smaller ones, although the rule is not linear.

The OP is dead correct. A 6.5 " driver cannot pressurize a standard room regardless of the size of box its put in an how much bass you feed it.

The best high end speakers I've heard bar none have two things in common. They either have increasingly planar mid range drivers, or dedicated mid range cone drivers, often multiple that have low mass, low Xmax cones to facilitate lightning fast transient response. Either of these two characteristics is counter to generous SPL at lower frequencies.

The trend in vanilla two way bookshelf speakers is because of cost/margin reasons. Sure the hell isn't because of improved sound quality.
 

sarumbear

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Its not driver size as much as its mass that dictates clean spl at lower frequencies. Larger drivers typically have more mass than smaller ones, although the rule is not linear.

The OP is dead correct. A 6.5 " driver cannot pressurize a standard room regardless of the size of box its put in an how much bass you feed it.
I wish you knew how wrong your words are. Electromagnetic drivers have been analysed and formulas had been around for decades.
 

Doodski

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Its not driver size as much as its mass that dictates clean spl at lower frequencies. Larger drivers typically have more mass than smaller ones, although the rule is not linear.

The OP is dead correct. A 6.5 " driver cannot pressurize a standard room regardless of the size of box its put in an how much bass you feed it.

The best high end speakers I've heard bar none have two things in common. They either have increasingly planar mid range drivers, or dedicated mid range cone drivers, often multiple that have low mass, low Xmax cones to facilitate lightning fast transient response. Either of these two characteristics is counter to generous SPL at lower frequencies.

The trend in vanilla two way bookshelf speakers is because of cost/margin reasons. Sure the hell isn't because of improved sound quality.
The mid bass is a rare thing these days for sure.
 

mj30250

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I don't agree, I could well do more reading, but I think more than a cursory understanding is needed to have the full benefit of what is presented here. 85% of those visiting the site will be in need of some help deciphering what is presented. It is a question of where Amir wants to go with ASR, but I think there a greater number of people here pretending to know an awful lot, than actually do an awful lot. I imagine he knows that better than most.
There are many things presented in the measurements that go beyond a cursory level, I agree. I just don't know that deciphering bass output and extension from a frequency response plot is one of them. That's a pretty basic and fairly fundamental concept for anyone interested in audio to understand if they're at the point that they've bothered to seek out this site and pour over the measurements. And while I certainly wouldn't be bothered if a disclaimer existed (and perhaps it's very well a good idea), it would likely need to be included on virtually every speaker review, as precious few full-range towers, never mind bookshelves, can match even many budget subs. From what I've seen, Amir always seems to clearly point out exceptionally strong or weak bass performance for a given speaker. For the multitude of loudspeakers that fall somewhere in the middle, I gather it's taken for granted that they're going to be categorized as "sub recommended". But it appears that we are in full agreement there.
 

sq225917

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Spl has nothing to do with mass, its cone area x excursion x sensitivity
 

Sal1950

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I have no experience, but a lot of people say that the size of bass drivers does matter. I recently discussed with one person who said that no 8 inch loudspeaker, not even 3, such as in the Revel Salon Ultima 2, for example, can match even one 18 inch woofer, for example from the Trenner & Friedl Taliesin loudspeakers. Not this level of dynamics.
I've heard triple 6" and 8" woofers compared to a 15" or 18" and both when done well have nice slam and thump. There are advantage to both I think and it a matter of the implementation that matters. What I have noticed is when a mid-bass driver is combined with those layouts that the bass and mids are much better. So more is better in this case as far as I'm concerned.
The mid bass is a rare thing these days for sure.
@Doodski Exactly!

OK, there's a reason why subwoofer designers don't use multiple small drivers.
Let's do the basic grammar school math and look at driver size against it's ability to move air.
All things being equal like excursion, efficiency and such.

6.5 x 3 = 389.19 sq"
8 x 3 = 603.18 sq"
12 = 452.39 sq"
15 = 706.86 sq"
18 = 1017.88 sq"

Now 3 6.5 can almost equal a 12 driver and a 15 kills them with almost double the moving area.
I had HSU 6.5 standmounts + dual subs in here for almost 6 years and was never happy with 2 things, inner detail and mid-bass.
I brought in JBL HDI-1600s that fixed most of the detail issue but I still wasn't happy with the mid-bass. In the past I've called it "balls" LOL
I returned them for JBL HDI-3600 towers with 3 6.5s in a 2.5 way configuration, plus 2 SVS SB2000 subs,
Problems solved for me and I have a relatively med-large room taking in the open kitchen / dining floor plan
Just my experiences.
YMMV
 

Doodski

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18 = 1017.88"
The last time I heard a good amount of 3-way speaker slam and attack was Cerwin Vegas of the 80's. Since then even a 15" JBL can't hold a candle to them. The 18" CV woofs had throw, slam, good bass guitar notes and went very loud. Yes, they where built super well and could take a beating from even a cat using them as a scratching post. :D I sold maybe a dozen pair of the towers with 18" woofs and 3 way with dual mid bass. Customers loved them.
 

sarumbear

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