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Should more emphasis be given to speaker (& driver) size in reviews + what is the ethos of this site?

Digby

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Two things I've been thinking about:

1. What is the ethos of this site? I've not come across a mission statement as such for this website (maybe there is one and I've missed it). Is it a repository of technical information for people who already understand FR, dispersion, distortion graphs and so on, so that they can see the measurements and immediately know what they're looking at, no extra guidance needed; or, is it also here to educate people who either do not understand or have a minimal understanding of these things, so that they may cut through the mystery/snake-oil/salesmanship when purchasing audio products and make purchases based on scientific understanding (measurements), translated by those that do understand it, into something the layman can digest.

2. Presuming the latter from above, is enough emphasis given to speaker (and mid-bass driver) size in reviews?

There are speakers that measure very well and are much lauded, but their bass reproduction (frequency and SPL) are very limited, some of the most favoured speakers under $1500 are so limited in SPL and particularly bass reproduction that they would struggle to fill a room 4x4m with sound that could provide a modest party for two people.

My layman experience (so far) is that I have not yet come across a 5" or 6" driver, however expensive or low in distortion, that can do what an 8" (or larger) can do in the bass department. This does not apply to all speakers with 8"+ drivers, of course, but there is, except in extremis, a much greater ease with which bass frequencies are played through larger drivers. Smaller speakers just tend to sound like they are struggling sooner, whether this shows in the measurements or not.

I can't explain why this is. I suppose it could have to do with many things, including distortion arising from playing midrange frequencies from a cone making large excursions (compared to one with a greater area), more noise from ports/non-linearity elsewhere, smaller baffle/cone size e.t.c.

Yes, smaller speakers can be supplemented by a subwoofer, but which subwoofer in what configuration? If the speakers don't come as a package (satellites + sub) then how can we know what benefit comes from a sub; if they cannot be purchased and tested as a set on the Klippel NFS, we cannot say in any scientific way what benefit will be gained from any hypothetical subwoofer.

TL;DR for question 2:

Small speakers with limited SPL/bass are being given precedence over larger speakers with somewhat greater non-linearity (in FR, for example), but much greater bass and SPL capabilities. Save the very smallest rooms, the larger speakers will often present as audibly better speakers, because they produce more of the lower frequency range and at louder levels. Smaller speakers are being 'saved' by the addition of a hypothetical subwoofer, but this is not a given and is artificially (unscientifically?) boosting speakers that are limited in their capabilities (but more linear within said limits) above their true position, when used as standalone speakers.

Without a sub and outside of the smallest rooms, these speakers are not so impressive. Does the typical ASR reader understand this and is enough emphasis being put on this in reviews?
 
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tomtoo

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Hard to say who the average ASR reader is?

You got the measurements and if bass thd shots up, its a sign that the speaker shows the white flag.

Is this enough for your listening situation, you have to decide.
 

DWI

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In my experience I would agree. Two years ago I went from a 2-way speaker with 8” mid-bass to a 3-way with 8” bass. Both are highly regarded speakers with long term pedigree and measure well. I am no bass junkie, but the 2-way unit really needed a subwoofer. The 3-way unit is fine on its own.

The actual bass response below say 100hz is all about “actual” in-room response rather than some theoretical computer generated response. I use REW, but below 100hz peaks and troughs are easily audible. They can sound terrible, I wonder how music can sound any good, but the brain seems to fix it.

Most audiophiles primarily invest in a good pair of tower speakers. Look at the speaker review index, tap TOWER in the filter and you will only find 17 reviews, some are very cheap products, only 6 have a recommendation and 4 and Revel. So besides Revel, ASR is not testing typical audiophile speakers. When reviewed, these are usually delivered, installed and collected by the manufacturer or a dealer and this is not how ASR works.
 

MaxwellsEq

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Why do people obsess about driver size? A loudspeaker is an holistic combination of drivers, cabinets and EQ (and room interaction). A large driver is no guarantee of a quality result.
 
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Digby

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For reasons of physics. I didn't say it was a guarantee of quality, but is seeking (elevating above all else?) ever flatter FR and disregarding SPL and low frequency reproduction a holistic approach? It is likely easier to get a very flat FR if you don't concern yourself too much with low frequency reproduction and SPL thereof. Then a shoebox sized speaker can be considered marvellous, but really most (outside of tiny bedroom/control rooms) would find such a speaker very limited.

Discounting aesthetics and size and focussing purely on sound quality, would the typical enthusiast prefer to listen to a 4" or 5" mid-bass Genelec (at low four figures) or something with an 8" mid-bass driver at a similar price. Try and play a concerto or symphony on one of these shoebox sized speakers, sans subwoofer, and see if you prefer it compared to a larger, somewhat (emphasis on somewhat) more ragged FR speaker, with much more low frequency and SPL ability. I don't think it is too much of an exaggeration to say about 9 out of 10 will prefer the larger speaker.

My point is, isn't there a skew in results when it is taken as a given that these small speakers will be used with x sub of unknown ability and that will pick up the slack in the low end (that a sub can adequately replace a larger mid-bass driver is a question in itself). How much is the layman made aware of this skew?

Obviously a poison has to be picked as to what is considered of prime importance, but how obvious is that for those that cannot necessarily interpret charts (see question 1 in OP).
 

Joe Smith

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I always want to know driver size. Yes, it's not the be all and end all, but it is pertinent. Also, whether the speaker has a port and if front or rear. Just basic stuff to help one evaluate...
 

amirm

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1. What is the ethos of this site? I've not come across a mission statement as such for this website (maybe there is one and I've missed it). Is it a repository of technical information for people who already understand FR, dispersion, distortion graphs and so on, so that they can see the measurements and immediately know what they're looking at, no extra guidance needed; or, is it also here to educate people who either do not understand or have a minimal understanding of these things, so that they may cut through the mystery/snake-oil/salesmanship when purchasing audio products and make purchases based on scientific understanding (measurements), translated by those that do understand it, into something the layman can digest.
The site is full of information. Reviews however are designed to "get in, get out." I provide both text and video tutorials for measurements and have more planned. If you follow a handful of reviews, you get the hang of it and able to speed read through a review in a minute or two. Given the frequency of reviews I do, this is essential.
 

amirm

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Does the typical ASR reader understand this and is enough emphasis being put on this in reviews?
Yes if you read the subjective part of the review. Quantifying SPL and clean playback is hard with measurements but pretty easy in listening tests with proper content. This is the cornerstone of every review I do and I will dismiss great frequency response if it doesn't deliver power.
 

mj30250

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There are far too many variables involved to definitively declare big drivers GUD! small drivers MEH! The site is first and foremost about data. Understanding and extrapolating that data to each of our situations is...not so much, though plenty of help in those areas is available from several members.

My current mains use 6" bass woofers. They absolutely crush prior speakers I had with 8" woofers in both bass output and extension. Quality of drivers, excursion, power handling, crossover design, cabinet design, etc all contribute. I cross them to dual 15" subs at 80Hz and realize extremely clean, strong bass all the way up to the midrange, and at very high playback levels (higher than I'd ever go, other than for giggles for a few seconds). I'm not exactly sure what moving up to 8" mains would accomplish in my case except to look more impressive, I guess. From an SQ-perspective, I doubt much, if anything. Other rooms / situations will vary.
 
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Digby

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Yes if you read the subjective part of the review. Quantifying SPL and clean playback is hard with measurements but pretty easy in listening tests with proper content. This is the cornerstone of every review I do and I will dismiss great frequency response if it doesn't deliver power.
For the benefit of less knowledgeable readers, should that come before the graphs? Maybe some brief information about what scenario a speaker is suited for (size of room, does it need a subwoofer or not, perhaps a lesser rating if so?), using some kind of copy/paste set categories.

The information provided by this site has been very valuable to me, but without significant reading (many years worth), I doubt I'm going to fully understand it. I am navigating a fair amount of this by feel and intuition and I imagine so are a great many here, even if they may be somewhat further along the path to understanding.

Do you think people who are being wooed by snake oil and voodoo would be more receptive if there was a little more preliminary explanation at the beginning of every review as to what all the information means in a non-technical sense, as far as feasible. I sincerely doubt 90% of those visiting the site understand as much as they should to get full benefit of what you're doing with the Klippel and perhaps never will; is this not a gap that could do with further bridging?

My current mains use 6" bass woofers. They absolutely crush prior speakers I had with 8" woofers in both bass output and extension. Quality of drivers, excursion, power handling, crossover design, cabinet design, etc all contribute. I cross them to dual 15" subs at 80Hz and realize extremely strong bass all the way up to the midrange.
Ok, but you're judging them as helped by 2 x 15" subs. This isn't particularly instructive as to whether the 6" or 8" woofer speakers provide better bass on their own.

You are free to do this in your own setting, of course, but is there too much reliance in reviews on the end user having x subs to fill in for mains speakers?

Is it scientific to rate speakers based upon the presumed existence and adequate integration of x subs of unknown quality, how can this be determined at the time of review. Should any speaker that cannot hit, say, 40hz at -3db be penalised for this in reviews and an explicit mention made of a need for subwoofers?
 
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mj30250

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Ok, but you're judging them as helped by 2 x 15" subs. This isn't particularly instructive as to whether the 6" or 8" woofer speakers provide better bass on their own.

You are free to do this in your own setting, of course, but is there too much reliance in reviews on the end user having x subs to fill in for mains speakers?

Is it scientific to rate speakers based upon the presumed existence and adequate integration of x subs of unknown quality, how can this be determined at the time of review? Should any speaker that cannot hit, say, 40hz at -3db be penalised for this in reviews and an explicit mention made of a need for subwoofers?
My speakers have an F3 of under 40Hz and I can easily "hear" a 20Hz test tone in my room when playing them full range with the subs off. The latter half of that is what makes it tricky in terms of how to quantify subjective bass performance in reviews. Each of our rooms play havoc with bass, and when you're limiting bass frequencies to originate where your mains are typically going to be living, 1000 different things will result when that setup is played in 1000 different rooms. Providing data by way of measurements is the only true way to baseline this. At some point it's up to the end user to have an understanding of their room and how extrapolate what's needed to achieve smooth bass response within it. If I had a huge room and sat at twice the distance I do I'd probably be looking at bigger drivers (and more subs). Of course, it's easy to look at something like a KEF LS50 and say that yes, here is a very nice speaker that most anyone is going to want to supplement with a sub or six. On the other end of the spectrum, if I'm sitting 8' from big hulking towers with 12" bass drivers I might be spending more effort on getting them to perform more like smaller drivers than if I were to switch to compact towers and "simply" place subs in good spots.
 

Katji

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I always want to know driver size. Yes, it's not the be all and end all, but it is pertinent. Also, whether the speaker has a port and if front or rear. Just basic stuff to help one evaluate...
If "get in, get out" is not enough, you select text / name, right-click, google, you got pics.
 

Chrispy

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Not sure where you're going particularly with this but seems quite a few people come here with what expectations they have for what this site/forum should offer when it doesn't necessarily go that route....to me it's more a take it for what it is thing. Either you can digest the info or need to use the forums to expand on it perhaps. Dimensions of speakers/drivers are mentioned, so not sure what more you need in that respect....
 

deprogrammed

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Most audiophiles primarily invest in a good pair of tower speakers.
Source?
I like that with a Sub I can put it for best results. Even when I did have towers I highpassed them. I did appreciate the sensitivity and in my case playing louder.
Having 2 bass sources in bad locations is a no go for me.
Also depends on your music. Not many towers go low enough for my tastes and budget.
 

Axo1989

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This site leans more logos than ethos

Thinking about the word of god, my favourite pop culture depiction of the deity was by Alanis Morissette in Kevin Smith's Dogma. There is potential for a film with Toole, Olive and the Japanese Bride as holy trinity, I reckon. Now the genre ... I'm thinking horror, but open to ideas. Needs a new thread, obviously.
 

mglobe

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WRT the bias towards smaller speakers I suspect that it has a fair amount to do with the fact that a large proportion of the speakers tested are shipped to @amirm at the effort and expense of the owners of the speakers. Towers are more expensive and arguably more risky to ship. There are some manufacturers who ship their speakers for testing, but a large proportion of the industry seems to prefer glowing reviews of listening to this music or that over measurements that might reveal weaknesses.
 

Jim Shaw

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This particular item started as argumentative and is developing as such. There is little correlation between driver size and max SPL. To wit: your grandfather's 15" Magnavox and my DBR62 (6-1/2").

That said, I would like to know the cone diameter of a pictured mid-woofer, early in a review, just to estimate the size of the entire speaker. On occasion, I thought I was looking at a larger 6-1/2" bookie when I was actually seeing a mini 3" desktop monitor.
 
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Digby

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This particular item started as argumentative and is developing as such.
Maybe, but it is the right kind of argumentative. Science is all about argumentation, no? I'm not trying to be personal about Amir or anything. I would prefer it was seen as...stimulating, rather than argumentative ;)

Whenever I pose these difficult questions, I'm after stimulation. A little selfish, I know, but where would all be without a little stimulation now and then?

here is little correlation between driver size and max SPL. To wit: your grandfather's 15" Magnavox and my DBR62 (6-1/2").
Is that really true though? In general there is a definite and strong correlation between driver (and speaker) size and SPL, even in high frequencies (horn loading), the exceptions prove the rule.
 

tomtoo

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Maybe, but it is the right kind of argumentative. Science is all about argumentation, no? I'm not trying to be personal about Amir or anything. I would prefer it was seen as...stimulating, rather than argumentative ;)

Whenever I pose these difficult questions, I'm after stimulation. A little selfish, I know, but where would all be without a little stimulation now and then?


Is that really true though? In general there is a definite and strong correlation between driver (and speaker) size and SPL, even in high frequencies (horn loading), the exceptions prove the rule.

Wen he has to compare a new smaller with grandfathers big, you know that size matters.
If this would not the case he would compare a new 15inch to a new 6inch. ;)
 
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