• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required as is 20 years of participation in forums (not all true). Come here to have fun, be ready to be teased and not take online life too seriously. We now measure and review equipment for free! Click here for details.

Seeking Cost/Performance Input and Thoughts: Hypex vs Purifi vs Benchmark

CDMC

Senior Member
Forum Donor
Joined
Sep 4, 2019
Messages
332
Likes
501
#41
Oh, right you are - he has a 5800.
Keep in mind that while Nelson Pass designed the Adcom Amps (both the 500 series and 5000 series), Adcom modified the designs.
 
Joined
Apr 5, 2019
Messages
342
Likes
174
#42
The Hypex and Purifi have output filters. This switching signal is at 450 to 500 kHz and what low level signal remains has no impact on your listening or speakers.

Regarding gain don't be concerned at all. You will just turn up your dac or pre 3dB louder. So long as your dac has a high enough output to drive the amp to full output its a non issue. If anything the lower gain will probably have lower noise levels.

There is nothing in the LKV that will justify spending $9k more. In fact with zero feedback in the buffer I would expect that to most likely ruin the excellent performance of the Purifi module.
In just three sentences you have concisely addressed many myths.
 

TLEDDY

Active Member
Forum Donor
Joined
Aug 4, 2019
Messages
180
Likes
197
Location
Central Florida
#43
I admit to prejudice.

In my long past, I have owned many amps. After over 60 years of different ones, I tried and decided on the Benchmarks. They measure impeccably and subjectively, to my ear, are as good or better than far more costly and I have owned many. At 78, I think they will outlast me.


Sources: Vinyl, SACD, CD, Tidal, Amazon Prime, Digital downloads
Electronics: Benchmark DAC3, Room Perfect, AHB2 x 2 Bridged
Connections: Benchmark balanced except Vinyl unbalanced , Neutric speaker connects
Speakers: Harbeth 40.1s; Stacked Quad 57s by Quads Unlimited, (Wayne Piquet)
 

Tks

Major Contributor
Joined
Apr 1, 2019
Messages
1,582
Likes
1,955
Location
NYC
#44
Barring JohnYang's aspirations and perhaps upcoming power amp.. I wouldn't even look at anything other than the Benchmark if I had passives. The performance metrics compared to it, and the rest of all know power amps is just far too great for me to take any other seriously.
 

Crane

Active Member
Forum Donor
Joined
Dec 16, 2018
Messages
118
Likes
117
#45
Barring JohnYang's aspirations and perhaps upcoming power amp.. I wouldn't even look at anything other than the Benchmark if I had passives. The performance metrics compared to it, and the rest of all know power amps is just far too great for me to take any other seriously.
Yea but if your DAC has worse measurements than your amp, then It makes no difference.
 

Trouble Maker

Active Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2020
Messages
161
Likes
121
Location
Japan via Ohio
#46

Crane

Active Member
Forum Donor
Joined
Dec 16, 2018
Messages
118
Likes
117
#47
But you can spend $110 and get one at the same level.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ds/smsl-sanskrit-10th-mk-ii-dac-review.12148/
And there are 21 others tested here that perform higher, 9 of which are between $400 to $700. The DAC doesn't seem like the limiting factor from a performance or cost/value standpoint.
Yea i know that but that wasn't the point. The point is you cant always just look at a single number/performance if it makes no difference especially at a higher cost. The class-D amps like purifi/hypex give a good cost to performance with no major difference.

Why waste money on a super highway if you are gonna put checkpoints along the way, which by the title of the thread is the point.

That said i do own a benchmark connected in stereo to my studio2s and definitely love it. I have a hypex nc252 in another system and it is also great not same lvl of engineering but overall unnoticeable so far. Hopefully at some point soon will get to put those studio on monoblock purifi's and see how they fair.
 

Tks

Major Contributor
Joined
Apr 1, 2019
Messages
1,582
Likes
1,955
Location
NYC
#48
Yea but if your DAC has worse measurements than your amp, then It makes no difference.
Yea i know that but that wasn't the point. The point is you cant always just look at a single number/performance if it makes no difference especially at a higher cost. The class-D amps like purifi/hypex give a good cost to performance with no major difference.

Why waste money on a super highway if you are gonna put checkpoints along the way, which by the title of the thread is the point.

That said i do own a benchmark connected in stereo to my studio2s and definitely love it. I have a hypex nc252 in another system and it is also great not same lvl of engineering but overall unnoticeable so far. Hopefully at some point soon will get to put those studio on monoblock purifi's and see how they fair.
(Just want to say before the body of my comment, I have no clue what your highway/checkpoint analogy is supposed to mean, at all)

The only problem was, you never made such point in your reply to me. Nor was anyone looking to make an implication counter to the point you just did make. As for why spend the sort of money, well, like anything in an economic system, it signals the sort of products you want. I don't want a modern product that can't best something devise half a decade ago.

The other question of "why when puri/hype give good cost to performance for no major difference". Well partially because firstly, it is a major difference by the standpoint of measured metrics (so regardless of perceptibility, it still holds true that sort of engineering costs money). You would then need to hold such definitional position for $110 DACs and how they make $1,100 DACs irrelevant as a logical entailment of your view. More importantly, we could concede it's not that big of a difference. The reason people buy expensive stuff in the first place is due to the minor things anyway. So even if we hold to your view, there is still a valid reply "why when pure/hype give good cost to performance".

If percetional differences of concern, then the whole thread would need to stop posting until the OP can be evaluated for his discernment ability. And then take his subjective definition and threshold of performance scaling - and when cost decoupling begins (basically at what metric of performance does cost need to scale with, like if we should consider 1db SINAD per $4 is the maximum allowed deviance for example).

The other problem is, you say you own an ABH2. Question now being, what sense does that make considering the view you just hold? Aside from being bored of money, and just experimenting with things like throwing darts on a board. I'm not really seeing a reason you would hold on to one.

Finally, when taking the current view espoused here. Do you think you can draw a corollary if I asked the same thing the title does, and simply swapped amps, and asked instead about DACs. Now the two DACs being a Topping D90, and the other an RME ADI 2 DAC. Which one fulfills a better "price to performance" if you had to give your take on it JUST using the title and nothing else.

Keep in mind, your overall arguments hold merit, Though I doubt OP is inept to the degree where he couldn't come to the conclusion you did, just by looking at measurements himself. Likewise with just reading a title and assuming that was all there was to the question. I think it's far more reasonable to conclude what OP is looking for, are the notions besides strict numbers, for his purchase decision. In the same way I hope you also realized this when reading my last portion where I asked "what do I get, D90, or RME ADI 2 DAC?". It's pretty evident the quesiton isn't being proposed because I haven't seen the reviews for each. Imagine recomending something with better price/performance, yet if there are problems, it's a headache to resolve, or is prone to issues in general. That's why I don't think OP would simply ask "what's got the better numbers" as you seem to imply he is strictly doing.

The reason I say Benchmark, is there is nothing left to doubt. And it makes deliberations like this simple from that assurance alone (if one is already with a budget that could afford either/or of the options). Buy it, be done with your passive system for life (or until you need to send it in to New York to get it looked at for any issue perhaps). Seeing as how he's an English speaker, I assume that's of lesser concern than having to ship it out to France for any issue like some builds have had in the reviews here using such modules.
 

Koeitje

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Oct 10, 2019
Messages
692
Likes
694
#49
FWIW I went from a Marantz PM-16 (almost 25 years old, premium line, class AB, [email protected] and [email protected]) to Hypex NC400 mono's. Made fuck all difference in sound quality on my Revel M106's and both run the speakers to levels that I'm not comfortable with. I didn't change amplifiers because of an improvement in sound quality, although I would have been nice, but because of the added flexibility of having a separate power amplifier and XLR inputs.

I didn't do a direct comparison, I just swapped the amps and noticed both sound great and go loud. There might be a difference in a bigger room with less sensitive speakers (mine are 87dB) where the extra power could be useful.
 

Crane

Active Member
Forum Donor
Joined
Dec 16, 2018
Messages
118
Likes
117
#50
(Just want to say before the body of my comment, I have no clue what your highway/checkpoint analogy is supposed to mean, at all)

The only problem was, you never made such point in your reply to me. Nor was anyone looking to make an implication counter to the point you just did make. As for why spend the sort of money, well, like anything in an economic system, it signals the sort of products you want. I don't want a modern product that can't best something devise half a decade ago.

The other question of "why when puri/hype give good cost to performance for no major difference". Well partially because firstly, it is a major difference by the standpoint of measured metrics (so regardless of perceptibility, it still holds true that sort of engineering costs money). You would then need to hold such definitional position for $110 DACs and how they make $1,100 DACs irrelevant as a logical entailment of your view. More importantly, we could concede it's not that big of a difference. The reason people buy expensive stuff in the first place is due to the minor things anyway. So even if we hold to your view, there is still a valid reply "why when pure/hype give good cost to performance".

If percetional differences of concern, then the whole thread would need to stop posting until the OP can be evaluated for his discernment ability. And then take his subjective definition and threshold of performance scaling - and when cost decoupling begins (basically at what metric of performance does cost need to scale with, like if we should consider 1db SINAD per $4 is the maximum allowed deviance for example).

The other problem is, you say you own an ABH2. Question now being, what sense does that make considering the view you just hold? Aside from being bored of money, and just experimenting with things like throwing darts on a board. I'm not really seeing a reason you would hold on to one.

Finally, when taking the current view espoused here. Do you think you can draw a corollary if I asked the same thing the title does, and simply swapped amps, and asked instead about DACs. Now the two DACs being a Topping D90, and the other an RME ADI 2 DAC. Which one fulfills a better "price to performance" if you had to give your take on it JUST using the title and nothing else.

Keep in mind, your overall arguments hold merit, Though I doubt OP is inept to the degree where he couldn't come to the conclusion you did, just by looking at measurements himself. Likewise with just reading a title and assuming that was all there was to the question. I think it's far more reasonable to conclude what OP is looking for, are the notions besides strict numbers, for his purchase decision. In the same way I hope you also realized this when reading my last portion where I asked "what do I get, D90, or RME ADI 2 DAC?". It's pretty evident the quesiton isn't being proposed because I haven't seen the reviews for each. Imagine recomending something with better price/performance, yet if there are problems, it's a headache to resolve, or is prone to issues in general. That's why I don't think OP would simply ask "what's got the better numbers" as you seem to imply he is strictly doing.

The reason I say Benchmark, is there is nothing left to doubt. And it makes deliberations like this simple from that assurance alone (if one is already with a budget that could afford either/or of the options). Buy it, be done with your passive system for life (or until you need to send it in to New York to get it looked at for any issue perhaps). Seeing as how he's an English speaker, I assume that's of lesser concern than having to ship it out to France for any issue like some builds have had in the reviews here using such modules.
Point taken, the benchmark was purchased first before any knowledge about the hypex.

Also, everything in the original thread was already answered. I guess on my view it's more about getting an endgame performance without the need to pay high value of the benchmark.
 

Fred Jacquot

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
Jun 19, 2019
Messages
502
Likes
524
Location
Europe
#51
Barring JohnYang's aspirations and perhaps upcoming power amp.. I wouldn't even look at anything other than the Benchmark if I had passives. The performance metrics compared to it, and the rest of all know power amps is just far too great for me to take any other seriously.
You really love THX stuff isn'it? :p

I had in mind that performance between Benchmark and Purifi was not so different, so I re-browsed the measurements:
- Noise: clear advantage to Benchmark, making the difference in the SINAD result
- Distortion: close, slight advantage to Benchmark
- IMD: equal
- Power: clear advantage to Purifi in stereo mode
- Ability to withstand abuse: advantage to Purifi, it seems the ABH2 had a tendency to shut down under a bit of stress

Since both ABH2 and 1ET400 have anyhow defects below the threshold of hearing, the audible difference will be the clipping level, and here, ABH2 looses.

Beside performance and cost, something that was not mentioned in the thread is that "Puripex" amplifiers make better use of the energy than the ABH2.
 

Tks

Major Contributor
Joined
Apr 1, 2019
Messages
1,582
Likes
1,955
Location
NYC
#52
You really love THX stuff isn'it? :p

I had in mind that performance between Benchmark and Purifi was not so different, so I re-browsed the measurements:
- Noise: clear advantage to Benchmark, making the difference in the SINAD result
- Distortion: close, slight advantage to Benchmark
- IMD: equal
- Power: clear advantage to Purifi in stereo mode
- Ability to withstand abuse: advantage to Purifi, it seems the ABH2 had a tendency to shut down under a bit of stress

Since both ABH2 and 1ET400 have anyhow defects below the threshold of hearing, the audible difference will be the clipping level, and here, ABH2 looses.

Beside performance and cost, something that was not mentioned in the thread is that "Puripex" amplifiers make better use of the energy than the ABH2.
Actually after JohnYang's revelations, I'm not all that hyped seeing as the feed forward comments were unfounded(and naturally many companies followed suit to demonstrate the feedforward feedback approach was uneeded as John claimed, Schiit, Geshelli, JDS, Topping, all showed this). Though it seems the Benchmark power amp is a custom design that they collaborated with THX that does make good potentially on the feedforward claims (and is why there doesn't seem to be any other THX power amps on the market nor any indication there will be).

As far as the rest of the commentary. I agree, and fair enough.

Though I'm not entirely sure what you mean better use of energy?
 
OP
tmtomh

tmtomh

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2018
Messages
353
Likes
805
Thread Starter #53
I think at the end of the day, you have to decide first if you want to stick with Class A/AB or go to Class D. There is no doubt that Class D is the way of the future, clean, energy efficient, and little heat. I purchased my first Class D amp recently and am happy with it, finding that it has a bit more clarity and sounds less grainy than the small Class AB amp it replaced. Whether it is the old amp wasn't working right, it in fact sounds better, or I am imagining the improved sound is a matter for debate.

If it were me, I would go the Purifi 400 route. It gets you more power than the Benchmark (225 watts/ch 8 ohms, 425 watts/ch 4 ohms) which will likely comfortably drive any speakers you purchase. It also gets you the latest in Class D technology. Finally, if you think you might get upgraditous down the road, you could purchase from Nord and have the ability to play with different input buffers.

One thing to keep in mind is that even high end manufactures are purchasing Class D modules and then throwing them in their own case with their own custom buffer stage and charging a fortune. You can get the same amp for less. Also, I am not impressed with the idea of spending $10,000 for a zero feedback front end. Both Hypex and Purifi use a great deal of feedback. As their designer says, feedback is not bad, it is bad implementation of feedback that is bad.

If you haven't watched it, I strongly suggest watching Buron Putzeys speech at Burning Amp in 2012. Ironically, the audio quality is horrible, but he discusses a lot of why he did what he did in designing the Hypex amps.

Thanks! The Audiophonics Purifi is actually where I've been leaning as I've read the progression of comments in this thread. Consistent with some of your comments here, it's seeming like the most likely sweet spot for me.

I've never been terribly interested in playing around with input buffers (and was not at all surprised when @amirm ran comparative measurements on different op amps and found no difference), and therefore am looking to keep it simple. I checked out the equivalent Nord Purifi amp to the Audiophonics and the pricing is nearly identical. Neither company is not currently shipping because the PSUs are unavailable due to temporary factory shutdown. Honestly, if one of them were shipping now and the other weren't, I'd probably just get the one who was shipping. All things being equal as they are, though, I'm still leaning towards the Audiophonics, because 12v trigger is not important for my use case, while having both RCA and XLR options is (I know this is not the majority/typical use case for folks here).

And just to be clear, I share your and other folks' distaste, at any price point, for any front-end add-on that degrades, undoes, or "fights against" the performance and basic design of the Hypex or Purifi module. My view is, if you want to color the sound of a class D power amp, you can do so inexpensively and much more modularly with a preamp or outboard buffer state - or you can just forego class D entirely and get some kind of Class A amp (or high-bias AB amp that stays in class A mode at higher power levels than the typical AB amp). Why spend money - especially five figures - on a platypus?
 
Last edited:

Fred Jacquot

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
Jun 19, 2019
Messages
502
Likes
524
Location
Europe
#54
Actually after JohnYang's revelations, I'm not all that hyped seeing as the feed forward comments were unfounded(and naturally many companies followed suit to demonstrate the feedforward feedback approach was uneeded as John claimed, Schiit, Geshelli, JDS, Topping, all showed this). Though it seems the Benchmark power amp is a custom design that they collaborated with THX that does make good potentially on the feedforward claims (and is why there doesn't seem to be any other THX power amps on the market nor any indication there will be).
I was just teasing you, no worries :)
I would advise to take what JohnYang says with a grain of salt, since he has something to sell.
In general, drawing conclusions on poweramps based on headamps knowledge is quite dangerous. I don't see many common points between an ABH2 and whatever Drop/SMSL/... headamp apart the THX logo.
And full disclosure, one can also take what I am saying with a huge spoon of salt since I will soon sell Puripex based amplifiers.
Though I'm not entirely sure what you mean better use of energy?
More electricity is changed into music instead of heat.
 

Willem

Major Contributor
Joined
Jan 8, 2019
Messages
1,477
Likes
2,365
#55
Since al three are better than human hearing, and since that will not ever change, I think the only rational thing to do is to buy the cheapest watts that are well made. Talking about watts, if there is one thing that may change in your future, it is that you may move up the housing ladder and into something bigger (been there). Even a little bit bigger demands a lot more power in my experience. So that is where your future proofing should be.
All three share great energy efficiency, and that will also be important in future.
 

CDMC

Senior Member
Forum Donor
Joined
Sep 4, 2019
Messages
332
Likes
501
#56
Honestly, if one of them were shipping now and the other weren't, I'd probably just get the one who was shipping. All things being equal as they are, though, I'm still leaning towards the Audiophonics, because 12v trigger is not important for my use case, while having both RCA and XLR options is (I know this is not the majority/typical use case for folks here).
Just in case you don't know, if you get an XLR only model, you can use RCA to XLR cables. March Audio and Benchmark both sell cables that follow Hypex/Purifi's adapter cable wiring method.
 

Tks

Major Contributor
Joined
Apr 1, 2019
Messages
1,582
Likes
1,955
Location
NYC
#58
I was just teasing you, no worries :)
I would advise to take what JohnYang says with a grain of salt, since he has something to sell.
I dig what he's sellin ;-}

Though in all honesty, I've seen almost no one challenge his claims in recent memory. He has an incendiary approach when posting sometimes, but even that isn't enough to have people challenge his technical claims all that much.

Sure has heck won't be finding me doing it, last year I barely knew what the merits of various sample rates were, while possibly everyone else on this forum is a master electrician/electrical engineer. The best I can do is inquire between knowledgeable people and see who makes the better case if there are ever conflicts (of which I haven't held competing ideas of two experts around here that would differ much in anything more than vocabulary deliberations at most.

In general, drawing conclusions on poweramps based on headamps knowledge is quite dangerous. I don't see many common points between an ABH2 and whatever Drop/SMSL/... headamp apart the THX logo.
Agreed, though he does make this distinction himself as well. The THX claims for the Benchmark seem to hold as far as we know, and no reason to doubt.

I guess we'll see how well his next projects do. He has a power amp in the works and something else I can't recall. If he shakes anything up in the upper tier of power amps, I think it'd be fair to grant his statements far more credeance than caution currently gates us to. Though his claims about performance in headphone amps has done much to fortify his veracity (basically made what is essentially the best headphone amp in known existence currently).

And full disclosure, one can also take what I am saying with a huge spoon of salt since I will soon sell Puripex based amplifiers.
Like in your own enclosure? If so, that sounds awesome. Maybe we'll get better wiring and silliness out of concern as has been the case with some other offerings.

More electricity is changed into music instead of heat.
OOOOhhh you mean efficiency, well I sure as shit would hope so considering Class D.
 

Fred Jacquot

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
Jun 19, 2019
Messages
502
Likes
524
Location
Europe
#59
Like in your own enclosure? If so, that sounds awesome. Maybe we'll get better wiring and silliness out of concern as has been the case with some other offerings.
Yes, own enclosure, designed by myself, quite proud of it :cool:.
Trying to bring a quality product to the European market, with as much local sourcing as possible. If you take a map, my PCBs are sourced in Belgium, case in north east of France, Hypex is in Netherlands, final assembly in Luxembourg.
I am not intending to compete in price (not sourcing in China has some impact), more on aesthetics, functionality and build quality.
 

Tks

Major Contributor
Joined
Apr 1, 2019
Messages
1,582
Likes
1,955
Location
NYC
#60
Yes, own enclosure, designed by myself, quite proud of it :cool:.
Trying to bring a quality product to the European market, with as much local sourcing as possible. If you take a map, my PCBs are sourced in Belgium, case in north east of France, Hypex is in Netherlands, final assembly in Luxembourg.
I am not intending to compete in price (not sourcing in China has some impact), more on aesthetics, functionality and build quality.
You said you were teasing me before. Where the pre-release tease material at?

:D

Sounds awesome, keep us posted if you decide to share any designs or images.
 
Top Bottom