Review and Measurements of NAD T777 AVR

[xhattan]

I would like to add a further questions to consider. If in-fact I went ahead with the above plan would that still provide me true seven channel audio. I only ask because I remember reading somewhere that multichannel receivers, digitally driven, must have dedicated DACs for each of the channels. This make sense as I currently understand it. By running everything through a single two channel DAC, will I not in-fact defeat the entire purpose of this “multi -channel” experience I am supposed to be hearing ? Should I buy seven Sabaj D5s and line em up on my counter?

I don´t think the T777's (or T758) DACs are the problem. I understand that, no matter what, distortion will be present since it´s produced by a bad engineering of internal amps, which you can´t turn off even if you use external DACS and amps.

Hope someone clarifies this, I´m on the verge of upgrading my T758v3 to the T777. Bad measurements and all, IT IS the best sounding AVR in the market, even more with the new DIRAC firmware that gave the damn thing a suberb, incredible new punch on low notes.

 

[milosz]

>>IT IS the best sounding AVR in the market <<

How was this measured?

 

[peng]

I don´t think the T777's (or T758) DACs are the problem. I understand that, no matter what, distortion will be present since it´s produced by a bad engineering of internal amps, which you can´t turn off even if you use external DACS and amps.

Hope someone clarifies this, I´m on the verge of upgrading my T758v3 to the T777. Bad measurements and all, IT IS the best sounding AVR in the market, even more with the new DIRAC firmware that gave the damn thing a suberb, incredible new punch on low notes.

I would think that "best sounding" to one may not be so for others, it is just one's subjective view. Measurements are not dependent on the listener's subjective impression. Bad measurements would indicate the accuracy of the unit is bad relative to others that measured not as bad.

 

[xhattan]

>>IT IS the best sounding AVR in the market <<

How was this measured?

With Dirac Live, of course. And my ears. SINAD? yeah... well.

 

[xhattan]

I would think that "best sounding" to one may not be so for others, it is just one's subjective view. Measurements are not dependent on the listener's subjective impression. Bad measurements would indicate the accuracy of the unit is bad relative to others that measured not as bad.

Of course. It´s just my opinion after owning the Denon 4520, Pioneer SC 75 and 85, several Yamaha Aventage, and so forth; all of them great, by the way. I didn´t just read about SINAD, I actually heard the damn thing.

Upfront, I don´t listen at less than -6 or -7 dB ever, so there you go., Maybe I should´ve written "the best best sounding AVR in history, at -6 or -7 dB". The Denon x3600 measures better? By all means, get it. But at -6 or -7 dB, the T758v3 will pound it. The T777v3 will obliterate it.

 

[hmt]

I don't think so. The T758 has more or less the same amount of power for its channels. The T777 is a but beefier but that woul yield in only 1.5 db unclipped outut.

 

[peng]

Of course. It´s just my opinion after owning the Denon 4520, Pioneer SC 75 and 85, several Yamaha Aventage, and so forth; all of them great, by the way. I didn´t just read about SINAD, I actually heard the damn thing.

Upfront, I don´t listen at less than -6 or -7 dB ever, so there you go., Maybe I should´ve written "the best best sounding AVR in history, at -6 or -7 dB". The Denon x3600 measures better? By all means, get it. But at -6 or -7 dB, the T758v3 will pound it. The T777v3 will obliterate it.

If you listen that loud, at that level you can expect much lower distortions from the T777, about 0.0059% vs the T758's 0.236%. I understand you don't go by that, otherwise it would be the Denon that "obliterates" both.

In that case, when you said "Hope someone clarifies this ", clarify what then?
I can tell you if you use the internal amps, the T777 is less than 1 dB (139 W vs 123 W) more powerful than the T758 two channel driven into 4 ohm.

So the T777 is clearly and significantly better in terms of THD+N/SINAD and IMD but not so much in terms of output, but again that's only useful if the better numbers mean something to you, in terms of sound quality that you "heard".

 

[xhattan]

If you listen that loud, at that level you can expect much lower distortions from the T777, about 0.0059% vs the T758's 0.236%. I understand you don't go by that, otherwise it would be the Denon that "obliterates" both.

In that case, when you said "Hope someone clarifies this ", clarify what then?
I can tell you if you use the internal amps, the T777 is less than 1 dB (139 W vs 123 W) more powerful than the T758 two channel driven into 4 ohm.

So the T777 is clearly and significantly better in terms of THD+N/SINAD and IMD but not so much in terms of output, but again that's only useful if the better numbers mean something to you, in terms of sound quality that you "heard".

Well, nothing new. Of course the 777 is better, at double the price too. I asked clarification about a question from another member, as if to adding external DACS would avoid distortion. But never mind, you already read the measurements, so no need to actually listen to the device. It´s all in the SINAD and nothing else matters (Metallica dixit). Assuming reference levels are your thing.

But thanks.

 

[peng]

Well, nothing new. Of course the 777 is better, at double the price too. I asked clarification about a question from another member, as if to adding external DACS would avoid distortion. But never mind, you already read the measurements, so no need to actually listen to the device. It´s all in the SINAD and nothing else matters (Metallica dixit). Assuming reference levels are your thing.

But thanks.

I do pay attention to linearity, the FFT, IMD, DNR and SNR too, not just SINAD. Those were usually low enough for me, but not always.

 

[Dj7675]

I don´t think the T777's (or T758) DACs are the problem. I understand that, no matter what, distortion will be present since it´s produced by a bad engineering of internal amps, which you can´t turn off even if you use external DACS and amps.

Hope someone clarifies this, I´m on the verge of upgrading my T758v3 to the T777. Bad measurements and all, IT IS the best sounding AVR in the market, even more with the new DIRAC firmware that gave the damn thing a suberb, incredible new punch on low notes.

-I doubt going from T758v3 to T777 would be much of an upgrade. If I were you, I would consider the T778 as a more possible upgrade. I’m not sure what was done on the dac side of things (certainly possible it could be better), but they say “9 channels of NAD’s latest Hybrid Digital Amplifier Technology” for the amps. I wouldn’t be surprised if the amps measure much better. NAD uses this same language when they refer to hypex amps in their other products.
-As a former owner of the T758v3, even with Dirac, I just can’t agree with you at all that it is the best sounding avr in history. For me when I approached -10 it didn’t sound good to me (Sounded bright/harsh). If I stayed around -15 or lower it sounded very good to me. With the the Denon X8500, I have not had this issue.
-In my opinion, the amp performance of the T758V3 is even more troublesome than the dac measurements. Truly terrible. Adding an external amp like an outlaw 5000 or M2200 which I think takes around 1V to fully drive would be a nice upgrade to the T758v3.
-It would be interesting to calibrate 2 systems with the same target curve... one with Dirac and the other with XT32 and do a double blind test to see if a)one is preferred over the other and b)if one is preferred over the other.
-If you only eq up to 200-500hz (instead of full range), This same test would also be interesting. If using dual subs, I would hypothesize an XT32 system would measure and possibly sound better.

 

[xhattan]

-I doubt going from T758v3 to T777 would be much of an upgrade. If I were you, I would consider the T778 as a more possible upgrade. I’m not sure what was done on the dac side of things (certainly possible it could be better), but they say “9 channels of NAD’s latest Hybrid Digital Amplifier Technology” for the amps. I wouldn’t be surprised if the amps measure much better. NAD uses this same language when they refer to hypex amps in their other products.
-As a former owner of the T758v3, even with Dirac, I just can’t agree with you at all that it is the best sounding avr in history. For me when I approached -10 it didn’t sound good to me (Sounded bright/harsh). If I stayed around -15 or lower it sounded very good to me. With the the Denon X8500, I have not had this issue.
-In my opinion, the amp performance of the T758V3 is even more troublesome than the dac measurements. Truly terrible. Adding an external amp like an outlaw 5000 or M2200 which I think takes around 1V to fully drive would be a nice upgrade to the T758v3.
-It would be interesting to calibrate 2 systems with the same target curve... one with Dirac and the other with XT32 and do a double blind test to see if a)one is preferred over the other and b)if one is preferred over the other.
-If you only eq up to 200-500hz (instead of full range), This same test would also be interesting. If using dual subs, I would hypothesize an XT32 system would measure and possibly sound better.

Well, the Denon is 3x more expensive than the T758. When I said "best sounding" it´s obviously compared to similar priced devices. Anyhow, indeed the very few times I went under the -10dB mark, it did sounded a bit harsh. But the new Dirac update has tamed it a bit. I agree that external amps help a lot too, I use an Emotiva BASX A-500 and BASX A-800. Lastly, I owned the Denon 4520 flagship previous to the NAD, and the MultXT32 was absolutely anemic on bass (my room is truly awful), what Dirac did on low notes was truly a miracle.

Besst regards.

 

[BlackSpider777]

I don´t think the T777's (or T758) DACs are the problem. I understand that, no matter what, distortion will be present since it´s produced by a bad engineering of internal amps, which you can´t turn off even if you use external DACS and amps.

Hope someone clarifies this, I´m on the verge of upgrading my T758v3 to the T777. Bad measurements and all, IT IS the best sounding AVR in the market, even more with the new DIRAC firmware that gave the damn thing a suberb, incredible new punch on low notes.

So did you upgrade to the T777v3? is the difference noticeable from your previous T758v3?

I got the T758v3 & curious if its a upgrade in the sound quality.

Thanks.

 

[Willem]

-It would be interesting to calibrate 2 systems with the same target curve... one with Dirac and the other with XT32 and do a double blind test to see if a)one is preferred over the other and b)if one is preferred over the other.
-If you only eq up to 200-500hz (instead of full range), This same test would also be interesting. If using dual subs, I would hypothesize an XT32 system would measure and possibly sound better.

I would indeed love to see such tests that are of real life relevance.

 

[hmt]

I would like to see measurements as well. I remember some comparisons where dirac showed a flatter response in the bass which suggests that the resolution of the filters is higher there.

 

[peng]

I would like to see measurements as well. I remember some comparisons where dirac showed a flatter response in the bass which suggests that the resolution of the filters is higher there.

Do you have a link to such "flatter response"? With the Audyssey app I could get within +/- 1 to 1.5 dB 20-120 Hz or better, with 1/12 smoothing, so I am curious to know how flat others were getting with Dirac. I have also compared the two using Dirac's trial 2 channel versions, and I would say in the low range they are similarly capable. Dirac did seem to do a little better on the REQ impulse response, iirc..

 

[hmt]

Unfortunately it is too long ago. That is why I would want to see such test. In some cases audyssey may just run out of filters.

edit:

here is one:

https://www.avsforum.com/threads/ro...-audyssey-xt32-dirac-2-0-accueq-2018.3037658/

Yes, different TC but one can see that in this case dirac is flatter. I saw several instances of Audyssey app predicions where one could see that Audyssey did not correct some peaks when the overall response in the bass was too wild.

 

[peng]

Unfortunately it is too long ago. That is why I would want to see such test. In some cases audyssey may just run out of filters.

edit:

here is one:

https://www.avsforum.com/threads/ro...-audyssey-xt32-dirac-2-0-accueq-2018.3037658/

Yes, different TC but one can see that in this case dirac is flatter. I saw several instances of Audyssey app predicions where one could see that Audyssey did not correct some peaks when the overall response in the bass was too wild.

Thank you, but I didn't see Audyssey being compared, just Anthem ARC and Dirac. I hate to say it, I doubt Austin's were smoother than mine using the Audyssey App, in fact pretty sure mine's are flatter for the range below say 120 Hz. I can't say 100% sure because his were based on VAR smoothing, but I am 90% sure. That's just FR under one condition, so I am saying anything conclusive either. It is just my belief that the two are probably more effective than Anthem ARC but no clear winners, based on my research (just by search and read), and comparisons between Dirac two channel trial version vs XT32.

 

[hmt]

Actually XT32 vs dirac is right below that graph. The difference surely depends on how much is to be done with the eqs. My impression back then was that XT32 runs ut of filters/precision when the FR is very volatile from the start.

Another problem with audyssey sponserd AVRs is that they use the THX legacy asymmetric filters in the bass management (12 db high pass and 24 db low pass). That works as long as the recommended cut off is nit changed. In that case XT32 targets a roll off of 12 db per octave of the mains. When the cut off is changed afterwards this does not work anymore and you will have a phase difference of 180 degrees bn the mains and the subs in the crossover region. The prime example would be speakers that are classified as 40Hz cut off by XT32 and this is changed to 80Hz. XT32 tries to roll them of with 12 db per octave (implies a closed box like in the legacy THX standard) at 40Hz which would result in an acoustical slope of 24 db per octave which matches the subs roll of. When changed to 80Hz then this does not work anymore. The subs habe to be inverted to correct this and still the 12 db slope on the mains means that the crossover region is very large for them.

This is one of the reasons why XT32 needs to be updated. Properly implemented dirac AVRs are better in that respect since they do offer 24 db LR 4th order crossovers on bith sides (mains and sub). Arcam btw screwed this one up on their old AVRs (AVR390 and so on), they use the same asymmetric crossover resulting in the aforementioned problems.

 

[xhattan]

So did you upgrade to the T777v3? is the difference noticeable from your previous T758v3?

I got the T758v3 & curious if its a upgrade in the sound quality.

Thanks.

No sir, I did not. I´m still enjoying the T758 very much. Get the T777 or T778 only if you need more HDMI inputs.

 

[peng]

Actually XT32 vs dirac is right below that graph. The difference surely depends on how much is to be done with the eqs. My impression back then was that XT32 runs ut of filters/precision when the FR is very volatile from the start.

Another problem with audyssey sponserd AVRs is that they use the THX legacy asymmetric filters in the bass management (12 db high pass and 24 db low pass). That works as long as the recommended cut off is nit changed. In that case XT32 targets a roll off of 12 db per octave of the mains. When the cut off is changed afterwards this does not work anymore and you will have a phase difference of 180 degrees bn the mains and the subs in the crossover region. The prime example would be speakers that are classified as 40Hz cut off by XT32 and this is changed to 80Hz. XT32 tries to roll them of with 12 db per octave (implies a closed box like in the legacy THX standard) at 40Hz which would result in an acoustical slope of 24 db per octave which matches the subs roll of. When changed to 80Hz then this does not work anymore. The subs habe to be inverted to correct this and still the 12 db slope on the mains means that the crossover region is very large for them.

This is one of the reasons why XT32 needs to be updated. Properly implemented dirac AVRs are better in that respect since they do offer 24 db LR 4th order crossovers on bith sides (mains and sub). Arcam btw screwed this one up on their old AVRs (AVR390 and so on), they use the same asymmetric crossover resulting in the aforementioned problems.

Thanks again, I saw it this time but missed last time probably just assume it was Dirac vs Anthem ARC based on the first graph.
Noted that AustinJerry said "Dirac and Audyssey results are similar (Dirac has a custom target with bass boost) ", that how I felt as I mentioned before, based on comparing using the two channel trial version.

If you look at the Audyssey curve, you see see that by using the App with Ratbuddyssey, he could have flatten the curve quite easily because most cuts would suffice, and that's what I did, resulting in a very flat curve, within less than +/- 1 dB at its best but it did take a long time because I did have to play with some boosts. Would have been very quick and easy though if I was willing to accept +/- 2 dB (1/12 smoothing). Once flatten, one could also easily shape it to a slope curve but I find the flat one very nice after simply adding about 2 dB to the sub1/2 levels. I think I understand you point about the 12 dB/24 dB HP/LP slope, but in my case using 80 or 90 Hz crossover works very well. It would mess up if I change it to 60 Hz.