Review and Measurements of NAD T758 V3 AVR

[peng]

Just say the M27 Input Sensitivity, it is 1.3V for full rated power(180 X 7 @8 ohms)
So i guess with the T758 v3 as the processor i should get at least 70% of the power of the M27 without distortion?

Thanks.

Not really, according to the NAD M27 specs, voltage gain is 29, but also claimed 1.3 V for rated output so if you do the math based on the input sensitivity spec 1.3 V then the gain should be 29.3. So let's use the more aggressive 29.3, with 1 V input you will get just under 106.4 W. 106.4/180 = 59.1%, not quite the 70% you are hoping for.

The M27 was also reviewed by ASR, looking at the measurements, I would think it deserve something much better than the T758 V3. The T758 V3's SINAD was about 88 to 89, say 89 dB at 1 V, so you can do the math as follow:

Assuming the M27 won't add distortions of its own, then its output's SINAD will be 89 dB but no better, or -89 dB THD.
If the peak spl you listen to is below 89 dB, then in theory the THD+N of the pair would be absolutely below the threshold of audibility, i.e. not a factor. At louder level, it may still be below the threshold, but then you would have to rely on the "masking" effect (by the music signal) and then it would be hard to say if the relatively higher THD+N of the T758 V3 would have effects.

So the most important thing is to find out what is you power/spl requirements (for example, may be you only need 75 W most of the time), then your question can be answered, at least objectively speaking.

 

[BlackSpider777]

Not really, according to the NAD M27 specs, voltage gain is 29, but also claimed 1.3 V for rated output so if you do the math based on the input sensitivity spec 1.3 V then the gain should be 29.3. So let's use the more aggressive 29.3, with 1 V input you will get just under 106.4 W. 106.4/180 = 59.1%, not quite the 70% you are hoping for.

The M27 was also reviewed by ASR, looking at the measurements, I would think it deserve something much better than the T758 V3. The T758 V3's SINAD was about 88 to 89, say 89 dB at 1 V, so you can do the math as follow:

Assuming the M27 won't add distortions of its own, then its output's SINAD will be 89 dB but no better, or -89 dB THD.
If the peak spl you listen to is below 89 dB, then in theory the THD+N of the pair would be absolutely below the threshold of audibility, i.e. not a factor. At louder level, it may still be below the threshold, but then you would have to rely on the "masking" effect (by the music signal) and then it would be hard to say if the relatively higher THD+N of the T758 V3 would have effects.

So the most important thing is to find out what is you power/spl requirements (for example, may be you only need 75 W most of the time), then your question can be answered, at least objectively speaking.

Well i don't hear that loud specially when better half is around but when i play games(Xbox) alone i usually take the Nad T758v3 to -25 to -24db volume.
I find that pretty loud in my 16 X 17feet room. Right now only the Center(B&W HTM71 s2),heights(B&W M1) & surrounds(B&@ S686 s2) are powered my the Nad T758 v3. The front 2 speakers(B&W 702 s2) i use my Nad M32 in HT Bypass mode. Was considering this Emotiva PA-1 Mono Block just for the center channel for now till i save up for a Nice multi channel amp like the Nad M27/M28. When i see the specs of the Emotiva PA-1 on their site i see no where mention about the Input Sensitivity. Could you have a look & tell me? Sorry but i m not very knowledgable in this

Thanks.

https://emotiva.com/products/pa-1

 

[peng]

Well i don't hear that loud specially when better half is around but when i play games(Xbox) alone i usually take the Nad T758v3 to -25 to -24db volume.
I find that pretty loud in my 16 X 17feet room. Right now only the Center(B&W HTM71 s2),heights(B&W M1) & surrounds(B&@ S686 s2) are powered my the Nad T758 v3. The front 2 speakers(B&W 702 s2) i use my Nad M32 in HT Bypass mode. Was considering this Emotiva PA-1 Mono Block just for the center channel for now till i save up for a Nice multi channel amp like the Nad M27/M28. When i see the specs of the Emotiva PA-1 on their site i see no where mention about the Input Sensitivity. Could you have a look & tell me? Sorry but i m not very knowledgable in this

Thanks.

https://emotiva.com/products/pa-1

The PA-1 specs only shows the gain, that is 28 dB. Based on 28 dB gain and the rated output 140 W, the input sensitivity can be calculated to be 1.19 V.

The thing about that amp is, it is 140 W into 8 Ohms, 1 % THD, 1 kHz. That kind of spec does not inspire confidence at all and I see no reason to even bother, given that your NAD can do just as good. Why not the Outlaw M2200 or the new M2220?

 

[BlackSpider777]

The PA-1 specs only shows the gain, that is 28 dB. Based on 28 dB gain and the rated output 140 W, the input sensitivity can be calculated to be 1.19 V.

The thing about that amp is, it is 140 W into 8 Ohms, 1 % THD, 1 kHz. That kind of spec does not inspire confidence at all and I see no reason to even bother, given that your NAD can do just as good. Why not the Outlaw M2200 or the new M2220?

Thing is where i live there aren't much options Will pass on the Emotiva Pa-1 then & might just upgrade my avr to the Denon AVR X8500 which measured superb here. Just wondering if i use my Nad M32 stereo integrated which is Class D as the power amp for my front 2 speakers & the Denon X8500 for my center,surrounds & height channels, will it be an issue since the denon is Class A/B.

 

[peng]

Thing is where i live there aren't much options Will pass on the Emotiva Pa-1 then & might just upgrade my avr to the Denon AVR X8500 which measured superb here. Just wondering if i use my Nad M32 stereo integrated which is Class D as the power amp for my front 2 speakers & the Denon X8500 for my center,surrounds & height channels, will it be an issue since the denon is Class A/B.

Class A/B and D is not an issue at all. The M32 does not have HT bypass, but I took a quick look of the manual and found that you can do it via "settings", just set it to fixed volume and it would bypass the amp's volume control so it would work as a basic power amp, controlled by the AVR's volume control. So yes you can do it, except the spec does not tell you what the amp's gain/input sensitivity is. I would bet it is still going to be around 28/29 dB, any such difference can be dealt with easily in the AVR's auto setup process. In short, no issues that I can see.

 

[BlackSpider777]

Class A/B and D is not an issue at all. The M32 does not have HT bypass, but I took a quick look of the manual and found that you can do it via "settings", just set it to fixed volume and it would bypass the amp's volume control so it would work as a basic power amp, controlled by the AVR's volume control. So yes you can do it, except the spec does not tell you what the amp's gain/input sensitivity is. I would bet it is still going to be around 28/29 dB, any such difference can be dealt with easily in the AVR's auto setup process. In short, no issues that I can see.

Yes i am currently using it with my T758 v3 the same way, using the fixed volume option in the line in input. I have set the volume to -2.5db on the fixed volume level on the M32. I did that as i had an Anthem MCA225 power amp earlier which i replaced with the Nad M32. I feel that volume brings it close in volume level with the Anthem but off course the clarity is much much better then the Anthem.
Yes the Input Sensitivity for the in inputs are not mentioned in the manual but i have an upgrade MDC input card which also has XLR inputs.
Its call DD AP-1 but that has also no mention about the Input sensitivity, here is the card-
https://nadelectronics.com.au/product/dd-ap1-phono-preamp/

So i think it would make sense for me to go for a Better AVR altogether like the Denon X8500 & close my chapter hmmn..

Thanks.

 

[peng]

Yes the Input Sensitivity for the in inputs are not mentioned in the manual but i have an upgrade MDC input card which also has XLR inputs.
Its call DD AP-1 but that has also no mention about the Input sensitivity, here is the card-
https://nadelectronics.com.au/product/dd-ap1-phono-preamp/
Thanks.

To be clear, by providing the "Gain", they don't have to provide the "input sensitivity". Gain is actually a better spec as it is specific enough by itself, whereas input sensitivity in X Volt, can be confusing without the rest of details such as the assumed output power.

For example, if the PA-1's specified sensitivity was say 1.2 V, it would have to be based on 140 W, 8 Ohms at 1% THD, under any different output specs such as into 4 Ohms, and/or at a lower THD, it would be different. With gain, such as 28 dB in this example, you can calculate the voltage required for a certain output voltage or power (at a given distortion) based on your own assumptions that could be based on the other measurements such as the ones below for your AVR.

The only pro of the input sensitivity spec is that one wouldn't need to be very technically inclined to understand it, though one could still be confused, if the spec doesn't include enough details/qualifiers/conditions, such as "at rated output into 8 ohms", or "at 28.3 V" output, and/or "at 100 W output etc.. I have seen at least two posters who misunderstood Parasound's Halo amp specs that just say 1 V, so those posters assumed incorrectly that it would take only 1 V to get the rated output. That wasn't Parasound's fault, but the posters didn't pay attention to the fine prints that Parasound did include in their specs.

 

[BlackSpider777]

To be clear, by providing the "Gain", they don't have to provide the "input sensitivity". Gain is actually a better spec as it is specific enough by itself, whereas input sensitivity in X Volt, can be confusing without the rest of details such as the assumed output power.

For example, if the PA-1's specified sensitivity was say 1.2 V, it would have to be based on 140 W, 8 Ohms at 1% THD, under any different output specs such as into 4 Ohms, and/or at a lower THD, it would be different. With gain, such as 28 dB in this example, you can calculate the voltage required for a certain output voltage or power (at a given distortion) based on your own assumptions that could be based on the other measurements such as the ones below for your AVR.

The only pro of the input sensitivity spec is that one wouldn't need to be very technically inclined to understand it, though one could still be confused, if the spec doesn't include enough details/qualifiers/conditions, such as "at rated output into 8 ohms", or "at 28.3 V" output, and/or "at 100 W output etc.. I have seen at least two posters who misunderstood Parasound's Halo amp specs that just say 1 V, so those posters assumed incorrectly that it would take only 1 V to get the rated output. That wasn't Parasound's fault, but the posters didn't pay attention to the fine prints that Parasound did include in their specs.

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Thanks for theDetailed explanation, so me upgrading from the T758 v3 to the Denon X8500 will be a nice upgrade even for my front channels which get power from the Nad M32 hmmn. Learned a lot today & itching for the Denon X8500 now

 

[peng]

Thanks for theDetailed explanation, so me upgrading from the T758 v3 to the Denon X8500 will be a nice upgrade even for my front channels which get power from the Nad M32 hmmn. Learned a lot today & itching for the Denon X8500 now

I compared the measurements of the AVR-X8500H and the NAD M32 and would say they could be a very good match. The M32 didn't really measure better, but taking the front row load off the Denon should be good thing.

You could save money going with the also made in Japan AVR-X6700H but the X8500H is the only one (also the virtual twin A110 obviously) that allows you to disconnect the front row including the center power amps. If you want to know more about it, I suggest you ask @Dj7675 who is very knowledgeable and seems always willing to help others.

If you do go ahead with that, please get the $20 App, with that, I have no doubt you won't miss Dirac Live (okay say at least not that much..)

 

[BlackSpider777]

I compared the measurements of the AVR-X8500H and the NAD M32 and would say they could be a very good match. The M32 didn't really measure better, but taking the front row load off the Denon should be good thing.

You could save money going with the also made in Japan AVR-X6700H but the X8500H is the only one (also the virtual twin A110 obviously) that allows you to disconnect the front row including the center power amps. If you want to know more about it, I suggest you ask @Dj7675 who is very knowledgeable and seems always willing to help others.

If you do go ahead with that, please get the $20 App, with that, I have no doubt you won't miss Dirac Live (okay say at least not that much..)

Yes i also got the X6700H in mind as i don't need 13 channels in my room, got 7 channels & very happy with them so the 6700H will make sense plus get wife's approval as its more compact & won't stand out. I think the X6700H also can disconnect the front internal amps when using pre out, not sure though. The only think that scares me is if i get one with a dud capacitor that was reviewed here first which gave bad measurements & the unit was replaced with a unit that had a good capacitor, so much for made in Japan

Thanks.

 

[Dj7675]

Yes i also got the X6700H in mind as i don't need 13 channels in my room, got 7 channels & very happy with them so the 6700H will make sense plus get wife's approval as its more compact & won't stand out. I think the X6700H also can disconnect the front internal amps when using pre out, not sure though. The only think that scares me is if i get one with a dud capacitor that was reviewed here first which gave bad measurements & the unit was replaced with a unit that had a good capacitor, so much for made in Japan

Thanks.

Definitely not an expert at all... but my 2 cents would be this:
-If you only plan on using external amps on the Left/Right channels and only need 11 channels or less, I would opt for the x3700 or xx4700 (If Auro 3d/2d are of interest, go for the x4700).
-I too would be a bit concerned about the capacitor issues on the x6700
If you did opt for the x6700 I wonder if you can verify via serial number that it has the fixed capacitors?
Getting the X6700 starts to get in the ball park of an open box, full manufacturer warrantied x8500
https://www.safeandsoundhq.com/prod...l-a-v-reveiver-with-auro-3d-and-heos-open-box

Remember too that the X8500 can be upgraded to hdmi 2.1 next year if you ever need 4k. Also the Denon flagship models tend to hold their value a bit better it seems. YMMV of course. Any will work nicely I am sure!

 

[BlackSpider777]

Definitely not an expert at all... but my 2 cents would be this:
-If you only plan on using external amps on the Left/Right channels and only need 11 channels or less, I would opt for the x3700 or xx4700 (If Auro 3d/2d are of interest, go for the x4700).
-I too would be a bit concerned about the capacitor issues on the x6700
If you did opt for the x6700 I wonder if you can verify via serial number that it has the fixed capacitors?
Getting the X6700 starts to get in the ball park of an open box, full manufacturer warrantied x8500
https://www.safeandsoundhq.com/prod...l-a-v-reveiver-with-auro-3d-and-heos-open-box

Remember too that the X8500 can be upgraded to hdmi 2.1 next year if you ever need 4k. Also the Denon flagship models tend to hold their value a bit better it seems. YMMV of course. Any will work nicely I am sure!

thanks for the help, i agree the x8500 seems more tempting then the x6700h. I m currently using a 5.2.2 setup in my room, so 13 channels of the X8500 will be over the top for me. I power my fronts through an external amp & will be using the avr for center, surrounds & heights. The center channel i m using is the B&W Htm71 s2, its power hungry so the x8500 would do more justice for it i guess.
Is there a way i can bi-amp the extra channels for like the Center Speaker? if i go for the X3700 or X4700, i won't feel the upgrade from my current avr which is the Nad T758v3.

Thanks.

 

[Dj7675]

thanks for the help, i agree the x8500 seems more tempting then the x6700h. I m currently using a 5.2.2 setup in my room, so 13 channels of the X8500 will be over the top for me. I power my fronts through an external amp & will be using the avr for center, surrounds & heights. The center channel i m using is the B&W Htm71 s2, its power hungry so the x8500 would do more justice for it i guess.
Is there a way i can bi-amp the extra channels for like the Center Speaker? if i go for the X3700 or X4700, i won't feel the upgrade from my current avr which is the Nad T758v3.

Thanks.

Yes, I believe the Denon does allow for Bi-amping if it is helpful. But... the X3700 and x4700 would both still be a big upgrade over the performance of the T758... Both the x3700 and x4700 really aren't far off from the performance of the x8500 at all. Take a look at Amir's review of both of them as they are really good. Don't let the lower cost of the x3700/x4700 fool you into thinking they don't perform nearly as well as the x8500. If this site has shown us anything... it is that there isn't a very strong correlation between price and performance. I always assumed there would be...

 

[Dj7675]

thanks for the help, i agree the x8500 seems more tempting then the x6700h. I m currently using a 5.2.2 setup in my room, so 13 channels of the X8500 will be over the top for me. I power my fronts through an external amp & will be using the avr for center, surrounds & heights. The center channel i m using is the B&W Htm71 s2, its power hungry so the x8500 would do more justice for it i guess.
Is there a way i can bi-amp the extra channels for like the Center Speaker? if i go for the X3700 or X4700, i won't feel the upgrade from my current avr which is the Nad T758v3.

Thanks.

If you have a thought of going all externa amps someday and aren't interested in Auro3d/2d, I would still consider the x3700 and pocket the difference...
-x3700 measures a little worse on the DAC, but stil @ a SINAD of 98
-Amps actually measure cleaner than the x8500 but not quite as much power
-X3700 has a full preamp mode for if/when you get all external amps if that is a direction you go
-x3700 I think can be had for $999 which is quite a steal (even @ $1199 it is still a great value)
Just some thoughts.
I just picked up a NAD M27 that I'm going to use 3 or 5 channels in the theater and 2 channels in my 2channel room... and if I didn't want to do 13 channels, I would go x3700 or x4700.

 

[BlackSpider777]

If you have a thought of going all externa amps someday and aren't interested in Auro3d/2d, I would still consider the x3700 and pocket the difference...
-x3700 measures a little worse on the DAC, but stil @ a SINAD of 98
-Amps actually measure cleaner than the x8500 but not quite as much power
-X3700 has a full preamp mode for if/when you get all external amps if that is a direction you go
-x3700 I think can be had for $999 which is quite a steal (even @ $1199 it is still a great value)
Just some thoughts.
I just picked up a NAD M27 that I'm going to use 3 or 5 channels in the theater and 2 channels in my 2channel room... and if I didn't want to do 13 channels, I would go x3700 or x4700.

Yes the X4700 would be good enough for my requirement too, how do you find the Nad M27? It measured so well over here. Are you using a Denon avr with M27? My other option would be to go for an M27 for now(getting a good deal from my dealer for a demo piece) & use the T758 v3 as a processor for few months till i get shell some cash for a new processor from Anthem/Marantz. If i get the M27 i will be using only 5 channels for the center, surrounds & heights as will still use the Nad M32 for the front channels. Things are very confusing :-(

 

[Dj7675]

To answer your questions:
-I have had the M27 exactly 1 day
-Yes, using the X8500. Will be using 5 channels in the theater and 2 channels in an adjacent room
-M22 and M27 should be pretty much the same... There would be no reason to have the M22 and use 5 channels of the M27 and leave 2 unused. Both are based on Hypex NC400. If you got the M27 there really would be no need for the M22 as the M27 would have all the channels you need
-If are shooting for a low noise/distortion, better measuring unit, get the Denon and skip the Marantz. Denon can be had for less and measure much better
-From what you have said so far, one solution would be: Ask your dealer about a trade of your M22 to the M27. Get a Denon X3700 or X4700 and run it in full preamp mode. Done.

 

[peng]

Is there a way i can bi-amp the extra channels for like the Center Speaker? if i go for the X3700 or X4700, i won't feel the upgrade from my current avr which is the Nad T758v3.

Thanks.

With the 8500's flexibility, I am sure you can biamp the center speaker. I actually think you should do that because the HTM71 S2 is a 3-way speaker so in biamp mode the mid-range driver and the tweeter are most likely in the same group and would therefore draw a good % of the power. You should email B&W and have them confirmed that though because if I am wrong, and the mid range drive is grouped with the woofers then biamp will have very little effects, in terms of "power". B&W may tell you it is not just about power but also "sound quality" improvement, or they may not..

Do you have some big B&W speakers for the front left and right too? Just wondering why you seem so concerned about your power requirement.

 

[BlackSpider777]

To answer your questions:
-I have had the M27 exactly 1 day
-Yes, using the X8500. Will be using 5 channels in the theater and 2 channels in an adjacent room
-M22 and M27 should be pretty much the same... There would be no reason to have the M22 and use 5 channels of the M27 and leave 2 unused. Both are based on Hypex NC400. If you got the M27 there really would be no need for the M22 as the M27 would have all the channels you need
-If are shooting for a low noise/distortion, better measuring unit, get the Denon and skip the Marantz. Denon can be had for less and measure much better
-From what you have said so far, one solution would be: Ask your dealer about a trade of your M22 to the M27. Get a Denon X3700 or X4700 and run it in full preamp mode. Done.

I got the M32 (stereo Integrated) its not a power amp, use it for music where i use BluOS for tidal Mqa.
The M22 is a stereo power amp from the master series.
The M32 is based on some other Direct Digital technology & not Hypex.

Thanks.

 

[BlackSpider777]

With the 8500's flexibility, I am sure you can biamp the center speaker. I actually think you should do that because the HTM71 S2 is a 3-way speaker so in biamp mode the mid-range driver and the tweeter are most likely in the same group and would therefore draw a good % of the power. You should email B&W and have them confirmed that though because if I am wrong, and the mid range drive is grouped with the woofers then biamp will have very little effects, in terms of "power". B&W may tell you it is not just about power but also "sound quality" improvement, or they may not..

Do you have some big B&W speakers for the front left and right too? Just wondering why you seem so concerned about your power requirement.

Yes the Htm 71s2 is a 3 way center channel with dedicated Midrange driver. I am sure it will benefit from the Bi-amp mode but the Denon x8500 user guide doesn't mention anything about Bi-amping only the center speaker in speaker assign. In custom assign also there is not mention to Bi-amp only the center.

My front speakers are the B&W 702 s2 speakers. They love power & really shine with my Nad M32 & never did with my T758 v3 earlier.

Thanks.

 

[Dj7675]

I got the M32 (stereo Integrated) its not a power amp, use it for music where i use BluOS for tidal Mqa.
The M22 is a stereo power amp from the master series.
The M32 is based on some other Direct Digital technology & not Hypex.

Thanks.

Misread your post... thought you had an M22.