Review and Measurements of NAD T758 V3 AVR

[BlackSpider777]

Misread your post... thought you had an M22.

No issue, its Nad's fault for naming their devices so similar

Since you are using the X8500h, is it possible to have a 5.2.2(front, center, surround, height, dual subwoofers) setup with the Center channel Bi-amped & the Fronts on pre out with the X8500? the user guide has no mention about the Custom Assign options & the Bi-amp modes seem pre fixed.

Thanks.

 

[Dj7675]

No issue, its Nad's fault for naming their devices so similar

Since you are using the X8500h, is it possible to have a 5.2.2(front, center, surround, height, dual subwoofers) setup with the Center channel Bi-amped & the Fronts on pre out with the X8500? the user guide has no mention about the Custom Assign options & the Bi-amp modes seem pre fixed.

Thanks.

Here is a link to Denon's X8500 manual.
http://manuals.denon.com/AVRX8500H/NA/EN/DRDZSYhylpohod.php
With the custom amp assign you can use the 13 internal amps however you want... biamping, zone2, zone3, duplicating surround channels etc. At least that is how I read the manual and when I am in the custom amp assign mode. I don't bi-amp so I haven't actually tried it but have read others doing it.

 

[Trully]

@amirm and you measured how much is THD at 1.25 and 1.5V? Maybe it's worth it like 1V.

Thanks!

 

[usersky]

Any info about 758 v3i?

 

[kevin1969]

Has anyone used their T-758 preamp outs with another amplifier? Curious about your results. This review is making me think about an external amp for my Zone2 setup. Thanks!

 

[acal]

Has anyone used their T-758 preamp outs with another amplifier? Curious about your results. This review is making me think about an external amp for my Zone2 setup. Thanks!

I have. It still had lots of noise issues, all coming from the processing/pre-out section of the receiver. So, my listening was dominated by noise, and that didn't change when I switched from using the receiver's built-in amp vs an external one.

 

[kevin1969]

I have. It still had lots of noise issues, all coming from the processing/pre-out section of the receiver. So, my listening was dominated by noise, and that didn't change when I switched from using the receiver's built-in amp vs an external one.

Well crap!!

What external amp did you try it with? Did you just end up getting a preamp as well or a whole new AVR?

 

[acal]

Well crap!!

What external amp did you try it with? Did you just end up getting a preamp as well or a whole new AVR?

It was a Wyred4Sound class D amp, which exceeds the SINAID here, and had a normal 27ish dB gain. I ended up getting a denon x3500h instead, which I'm much happier with.

 

[xhattan]

Any info about 758 v3i?

Same as T758v3, but with eARC and Airplay.

 

[markus]

Same as T758v3, but with eARC and Airplay.

No eARC.

 

[usersky]

EE here, firmly believing that measurements do describe what we hear, up to a point. This will be a bit long. No more excuses, here is my story:

I did my homework and read all this thread. Twice. As I read many other threads about receivers and room correction systems here on asr. I read all the NADT758 avsforum thread (incredbile, I know, 620+pages then, 631 today). All right, I did that just once Hello Markus! Read about when you were banned, reading anxious to find out why, enjoyed your return and so on. I knew it all beforehand, I knew this NAD will be returned, I knew it would sound bad, I could hear the harshness of it’s horrific SINAD inside my head just reading all this but still... this NAD seemed polarising and I love a good controversy.
My room + not so well placed Yahama NS777s doesn't seem to like Denon's take on room correction so I ordered a NAD T758v3i fully knowing that it is the worst measuring receiver on the whole planet – by far. I expected to play for a month with DIRAC, see what it can do with my room and, being objectivelly the worst measuring receiver (by far!) I would definitelly hear some of it shorcommings and send it back within the return window. I had an UMIK-1 prepared in advance for that month of bad sound. And I pressed the order button.
I had my share of frustrations until I finally understood there is no way to get usable CEC with NAD+Philips TV (sorry Markus for not believing you from the start . I cursed the Spotify or Tidal problems until I boutgh a better router (a wi-fi mesh) that fixed the issues. I still grasp at how bad DIRAC software can be (on Windows at least) and I am trully skeptical on how well the filters can be computed seeing that the programmers have insurmontable issues just letting the main app window maximizing by itself. Or countless crashes, unexpected app closings and so on. By now wireless works well, I don’t need DIRAC Windows software anymore because all is set, CEC is a long distant memory and the spring will soon be here. So here I am, listening to Rusty Egan, Slow Down, on my Yamaha NS777s in my nasty room with my NAD T758v3i. SINAD, well - it is horrific for sure, as we seen, but the sound in my room is – you know the saying – night and day (sorry, cound’t resist being autoironic) compared with what I got before with a stereo amp, NAD C375BEE. Would I be able to better fix my room with anything that measures better within about the same budget? Couldn’t care less by now, just trully enjoy the relaxed sound I got. This NAD proved to be a keeper, wining against bias and measurements and my tehnical education.
By no means I imply that measurements are not important or good measuring manufacturers shouldn't be encouraged or similar. Just that sometimes we get to obsess about numbers, loosing in the process the larger picture. This NAD T758v3i was a distinct moment when the enginner in me was proven wrong: bad measurements can be less relevant. Harshenss? Cannot find any. I read the argument that including DIRAC should not save NAD reputation, fully agree but still, here I am with no better alternative that a horrific SINAD and still happy. Enough writing, I will return to my Topping DX3pro+my Senn hd600 to redeem myself with some minutes of better SINAD

 

[Chromatischism]

I also thought the T758 sounded good. Didn't notice anything off about the sound except my inability to get a good dual sub calibration (could possibly have been improved with a MiniDSP).

 

[xhattan]

EE here, firmly believing that measurements do describe what we hear, up to a point. This will be a bit long. No more excuses, here is my story:

I did my homework and read all this thread. Twice. As I read many other threads about receivers and room correction systems here on asr. I read all the NADT758 avsforum thread (incredbile, I know, 620+pages then, 631 today). All right, I did that just once Hello Markus! Read about when you were banned, reading anxious to find out why, enjoyed your return and so on. I knew it all beforehand, I knew this NAD will be returned, I knew it would sound bad, I could hear the harshness of it’s horrific SINAD inside my head just reading all this but still... this NAD seemed polarising and I love a good controversy.
My room + not so well placed Yahama NS777s doesn't seem to like Denon's take on room correction so I ordered a NAD T758v3i fully knowing that it is the worst measuring receiver on the whole planet – by far. I expected to play for a month with DIRAC, see what it can do with my room and, being objectivelly the worst measuring receiver (by far!) I would definitelly hear some of it shorcommings and send it back within the return window. I had an UMIK-1 prepared in advance for that month of bad sound. And I pressed the order button.
I had my share of frustrations until I finally understood there is no way to get usable CEC with NAD+Philips TV (sorry Markus for not believing you from the start . I cursed the Spotify or Tidal problems until I boutgh a better router (a wi-fi mesh) that fixed the issues. I still grasp at how bad DIRAC software can be (on Windows at least) and I am trully skeptical on how well the filters can be computed seeing that the programmers have insurmontable issues just letting the main app window maximizing by itself. Or countless crashes, unexpected app closings and so on. By now wireless works well, I don’t need DIRAC Windows software anymore because all is set, CEC is a long distant memory and the spring will soon be here. So here I am, listening to Rusty Egan, Slow Down, on my Yamaha NS777s in my nasty room with my NAD T758v3i. SINAD, well - it is horrific for sure, as we seen, but the sound in my room is – you know the saying – night and day (sorry, cound’t resist being autoironic) compared with what I got before with a stereo amp, NAD C375BEE. Would I be able to better fix my room with anything that measures better within about the same budget? Couldn’t care less by now, just trully enjoy the relaxed sound I got. This NAD proved to be a keeper, wining against bias and measurements and my tehnical education.
By no means I imply that measurements are not important or good measuring manufacturers shouldn't be encouraged or similar. Just that sometimes we get to obsess about numbers, loosing in the process the larger picture. This NAD T758v3i was a distinct moment when the enginner in me was proven wrong: bad measurements can be less relevant. Harshenss? Cannot find any. I read the argument that including DIRAC should not save NAD reputation, fully agree but still, here I am with no better alternative that a horrific SINAD and still happy. Enough writing, I will return to my Topping DX3pro+my Senn hd600 to redeem myself with some minutes of better SINAD

Thank you! Been saying it for the last 18 months in here.

It sounds incredibly good.... No, it measures bad so good sound can´t come out of it.
You need to hear it with Dirac on.... No, it should sound good even without Dirac. It measures bad.
It´s the cheapest AVR carrying Dirac .... No, the Denon 3500 is better 'cause it measures better.
Yeah, maybe there´s more to sound quality than measurements... What! I'd rather buy a $10 apple dongle cause it measures better.

And so on...

 

[Roland]

Thank you! Been saying it for the last 18 months in here.

It sounds incredibly good.... No, it measures bad so good sound can´t come out of it.
You need to hear it with Dirac on.... No, it should sound good even without Dirac. It measures bad.
It´s the cheapest AVR carrying Dirac .... No, the Denon 3500 is better 'cause it measures better.
Yeah, maybe there´s more to sound quality than measurements... What! I'd rather buy a $10 apple dongle cause it measures better.

And so on...

Exactly.

 

[dannut]

Thank you! Been saying it for the last 18 months in here.

It sounds incredibly good.... No, it measures bad so good sound can´t come out of it.
You need to hear it with Dirac on.... No, it should sound good even without Dirac. It measures bad.
It´s the cheapest AVR carrying Dirac .... No, the Denon 3500 is better 'cause it measures better.
Yeah, maybe there´s more to sound quality than measurements... What! I'd rather buy a $10 apple dongle cause it measures better.

And so on...

Atleast the $10 Apple dongle has some engineering effort put into it.
Spin it another way - T758-s engineering shortcomings could be explained away, because it is the cheapest entry point to a Dirac Live AVR. Does it mean that buggy implementation at every stage should be forgiven? I think consumers deserve non-buggy, working devices at every step. It should be trivial, as a $10 dongle shows you. Only Denon seems to get it. Now you could argue, that room-correction makes or breaks an AVR..

 

[kevin1969]

I have. It still had lots of noise issues, all coming from the processing/pre-out section of the receiver. So, my listening was dominated by noise, and that didn't change when I switched from using the receiver's built-in amp vs an external one.

Just curious. Did you ever try an external amp on the Zone 2 pre-outs with only Zone 2 turned on? Just wondering if that would have resulted in less noise.

 

[Chromatischism]

Atleast the $10 Apple dongle has some engineering effort put into it.
Spin it another way - T758-s engineering shortcomings could be explained away, because it is the cheapest entry point to a Dirac Live AVR. Does it mean that buggy implementation at every stage should be forgiven? I think consumers deserve non-buggy, working devices at every step. It should be trivial, as a $10 dongle shows you. Only Denon seems to get it. Now you could argue, that room-correction makes or breaks an AVR..

Not trivial. An AVR is a very complex device, unlike a dongle.

 

[usersky]

Atleast the $10 Apple dongle has some engineering effort put into it.
Spin it another way - T758-s engineering shortcomings could be explained away, because it is the cheapest entry point to a Dirac Live AVR. Does it mean that buggy implementation at every stage should be forgiven? I think consumers deserve non-buggy, working devices at every step. It should be trivial, as a $10 dongle shows you. Only Denon seems to get it. Now you could argue, that room-correction makes or breaks an AVR..

Engineering and life in general is about compromises, with budget, with living space, with family, with free time, with SINAD why not. It's so easy to ask for more: give me this Ford model at the same price but with maximum speed of 500km/h, consumers deserve more speed, you know a bullet could travel faster and is less than $1... Now, can you please recommend me a similar device as NAD T758v3 within +/-30% price, within +/-30% features, with DIRAC (since Audissey didn't work for my particular space/placement/loudspeakers) and with better SINAD? I would gladly put 30% more money and let 30% of the features or power go for that mythical receiver. But it seems NAD T758v3 is in such a unique market position that there is no practical alternative. I wish 20dB better SINAD of course but to me personally it proved that the lack of that had no negative consequence. We obsess about numbers forgeting when they may get irelevant, exagerate their place in the larger picture, are willing to fry our headphones for 1ohm less of output impedance or 0.5dB linearity that has zero audible consequences. I am a victim of this race too, just sometimes trying to step back and reevaluate how important this trivia really is. So please recommend me a better measuring receiver (not a dongle! since i need it to power my speakers) with DIRAC (not without, because I need this room fixed) within +30% budget (because this much I can afford) and I may be unhappy again untill I buy it Dongles, no thanks, I have a handfull, never really use one. Of course YMMV.

 

[dannut]

You are talking about engineering compromises, that I agree with. I am talking about botched implementation - sign of incompetence/ignorance. There is a distinction. Same pattern with Arcam - good analogue engineering, but the digital path?
And I already mentioned that T758 is the cheapest entry to Dirac Live. (lets exclude MiniDSP nanoAVR) No argument there.

 

[usersky]

I don't know if it's botched. I guess it is - it's so easy to ruin the performance of a jewel of receiver just by declaring a wrong type for a single variable somewhere in one line of code. Or may be a result of comprimises required to place the product where it is on the market (price and feature wise). It may be quite well an intentional decision: take this bad measuring receiver for cheap - want 20dB better? Shell another $2000 and it's yours (I doubt this but practice became routine nowadays). However the entire design result worked surprisingly well for me so it seems the right comprimises were taken for a set of potential customers that have no alternative on the market. That in itself is an achievement. I would like as an engineer to make the right compromises to get such a unique and satisfying proposition in a market slot. And incredible as it seems, these 20dB less SINAD hurt my eyes on the graphs but not my ears. Just how deaf I must have been all these years... But still, I really love good measuring toys, it's a weakness I cannot overcome It's just that I have a so bad room that a good measuring amp couldn't hide it's problems