Review and Measurements of NAD T758 V3 AVR

[tparm]

NAD doesn't have a ship date for the T778 at this time.

I spent some time looking through the S&V archives last night. Interesting how the T758 kinda sucked in their tests too. The MRX 1120 & AVR 850 did really well (and have substantial 2-channels driven power, see below). I can't seem to find true test results for the MRX 720 and AVR550 as that is more in my range. I was shocked how well the AVM 60 did, but I suppose it is only as good as the amp(s) you pair with it.

This makes shopping sorta fun and sorta maddening at the same time. I am still looking forward to the T778 and hope the new architecture performs well enough. I am somewhat at a loss for what is audible and what isn't. I'm almost 48, have raced cars and played drums a lot of my life so I am sure my audible spectrum doesn't extend to 50 KHz.

I know some of you are on other forums I have (lightly) posted in so I apologize for the redundancy, but here is my situation; I am building a house and am in the design phase now. I have already downsized my original dedicated room to roughly 16x23x9 and it will be appropriately treated. I just bought Polk Audio LSiM707/706c/703 speakers to replace my little Martin Logan Motion bookshelf set up. I also have four Polk 700-LS ceiling speakers that will go in the new space for Atmos. I am likely buying dual HSU ULS-15 Mk IIs for LFE (or a single SB-4000, I don't know yet). I listen to music more than I watch movies and sometimes will run the 707s full range for 2-channel listening. Quite often actually.

I have about $3k to spend on electronics, what should I buy? I like BluOS and I love Dirac. A few years back I had a MRX 510 and liked ARC. From what I understand the Genesis version is even better so I think Anthem could work well too, just not sure about Play-Fi. (recommended streamer anyone???).

I am intrigued by Arcam's Class G geometry but it's quite pricey. I am curious, of course, how clean and robust NAD's Digital Hybrid amp stages will be as the Polk's aren't super efficient (I think their ratings are generous) and my room isn't huge but isn't tiny either. I do play music and music fairly loud and worry about headroom of AVRs internal amps.

Anyway, this is sorta still on topic right? Oh, I currently own a T758 V3, that's how I ended up here.....

Thank you.

 

[audimus]

Play-fi is really bad in terms of general flexibility but can work well enough for a specific streaming situation. So, it is a hit or miss depending on what your sources are. The app interface is the worst I have ever seen.

In general, I prefer a general computer (doesn’t necessarily need to be a PC/Mac, could be an Android streaming stick whose apps can be updated independent of the stick for example) based streamer that can be physically connected to a DAC or a pre/pro or an AVR. Relying on firmware updates to embedded streamers when something changes or a new service comes along is dicey. All these companies depend on regular product cycles to keep you on a treadmill when anything changes or improves. And they all want to suck you into their ecosystem.

But the above computer solution has other limitations. They are not typically as integrated remote friendly as the embedded systems to use and not always convenient to stream to multiple points in the house that these embedded systems provide. So, you have hard choices to make based on your requirements.

 

[North_Sky]

What's deceiving? I don't think the receiver is THX-certified, but it certainly provides 100 watts of amplification with inaudible distortion, according to Sound and Vision's testing. Amir's measurements don't dispute this. The 0dB setting appears to be calibrated for higher than 105dB reference peaks, so it should fail THX in that respect. NAD's rating of 110W at 0.08% is overly optimistic, but not egregiously so.

I thought the DACs measured less than stellar ... resolution/level of distortion wise.
And no that unit is not THX certified...it wouldn't pass mustard.

The amplification is my last concern, the preamp section is.
...Everything.

Dirac Live LE (Live Full for $99 extra) is a nice feature, but without the DACs measured performance that feature becomes "blurred". IMO

• A positive review, very ...
https://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews...d-t-758-v3-av-surround-sound-receiver-review/
_____

Couple more ...
• https://www.avnirvana.com/threads/nad-t-758-v3-a-v-surround-sound-receiver-review.3426/

• https://www.soundandvision.com/content/nad-t758-v3-av-receiver-review
_____

* https://www.dirac.com/media-coverag...ld-upgrade-the-nad-t758-v3-to-dirac-live-full

The difference between Dirac LE and Full is LE is limited to 20-500Hz, Full is 20Hz-20KHz.

 

[cookiefactory]

I just bought and received the NAD C658 and while this is not the same product I can’t help but be suspicious of NAD’s overall engineering competency. At the end of the day the failings are probably not audible but still...

 

[North_Sky]

I don't know if a picture of its guts was posted ...

Yes, there were ...
• https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...urements-of-nad-t758-v3-avr.8912/#post-224308

 

[audimus]

Dirac Live LE (Live Full for $99 extra) is a nice feature, but without the DACs measured performance that feature becomes "blurred". IMO

There is no defensible rationale for the above statement.

They are not related to each other. If there is audible effects because of the DAC performance, it is neither hidden nor enhanced by Dirac in any non-trivial way that changes its possible perception (or non-perception). The performance of the DAC does not affect the efficacy of Dirac (positively or negatively). Linear vs non-linear distortions.

There are reasons to beat up the Nad for their engineering design that led to these measurements but unjustified implications seems more parochial than rational.

 

[North_Sky]

I'm having a hard time to find out which DACs are used in this receiver ... Burr Brown?
I wish I have this receiver @ home so that I can see the DACs inside (I would uncover them).

Bonus: https://www.eisa.eu/awards/nad-t-758-v3/

I know, it doesn't mean much, nothing means much nowadays...what people say.
What matters is how we measure everything in the most objectionable way.

 

[North_Sky]

There is no defensible rationale for the above statement.

They are not related to each other. If there is audible effects because of the DAC performance, it is neither hidden nor enhanced by Dirac in any non-trivial way that changes its possible perception (or non-perception). The performance of the DAC does not affect the efficacy of Dirac (positively or negatively). Linear vs non-linear distortions.

There are reasons to beat up the Nad for their engineering design that led to these measurements but unjustified implications seems more parochial than rational.

If the NAD's DACs are in the audio pathway when applying Dirac Live you don't think it can adversely affect the end sound quality entering our ears?
If distortion is introduced, is it a smooth sensation or a nasty distraction?

Sound perception aside, I looked @ many Dirac Live graphs from the NAD T758 V3 receiver and they measure pretty "swell".

Did anyone mention that there are three fans inside, @ the bottom front?

And the Mic needs to be replaced by a better one.

 

[Dj7675]

There is no defensible rationale for the above statement.

They are not related to each other. If there is audible effects because of the DAC performance, it is neither hidden nor enhanced by Dirac in any non-trivial way that changes its possible perception (or non-perception). The performance of the DAC does not affect the efficacy of Dirac (positively or negatively). Linear vs non-linear distortions.

There are reasons to beat up the Nad for their engineering design that led to these measurements but unjustified implications seems more parochial than rational.

This does not match my experience and is a very black and white statement that one of the worst dacs and the worst amps measured here have no audible affect. The problem I have with it is isn’t my experience after owning the unit. There are times while using it in our theater I wanted to play it closer to reference volume and after a few minutes, always had to back the volume back down to -12 to -15 to sound ok. In my other listenening space it is not an issue at all listening at reference level and it is actually quite enjoyable. In my opinion, I don’t think your position is defensible. There are situations where a user wants to have the master volume between zero and -10, and in my opinion I don’t think it sounds good. Looking at @amirm ’s measurements, it seems like there are pretty good reason to believe that may be the case. Again, there may be situation where it works fine in smaller rooms, where the main listening position is closer to the speakers etc where the volume is maintained around -15 to -20 that it would sound fine. That was the case when I moved it to our living room and it was actually quite nice with Dirac, and an integrated Roon endpoint where we used it to watch tv and listen to music at a moderate volume. But it doesn’t make sense to me, to keep saying none of these measurements are audible when in fact I think there is a pretty good case to be made there are in some circumstances. Bottom line is the amps are terrible, the dac/preamp section is terrible, dirac (that they had no hand in) is great, and it has some great features. In my opinion there are still audible issues, even with Dirac applied, in many situations. Because of this, and my interactions with NAD, I won’t purchase another NAD product that has not been fully bench tested by a 3rd party. Sorry for the rant, it just bugs me a bit to keep hearing this unit has no audiible issues because of Dirac (which I think is also great).

 

[audimus]

If the NAD's DACs are in the audio pathway when applying Dirac Live you don't think it can adversely affect the end sound quality entering our ears?
If distortion is introduced, is it a smooth sensation or a nasty distraction?

You should read the beginning of this thread which has posts about what Dirac doesn’t and what it does. Any distortion from the DAC being audible or not does not depend on whether Dirac is applied or not. Nor does it affect how Diract works to “blur it”.

This does not match my experience and is a very black and white statement that one of the worst dacs and the worst amps measured here have no audible affect.

Except that is not what I said at all in the quoted post. It was in reference to the claim earlier that the DAC performance somehow “blurs” the effect of using Dirac. Just stating that they are two different things and that the audibility (or not) of the DAC performance is not affected by use of Dirac and vice versa.

 

[Theriverlethe]

This does not match my experience and is a very black and white statement that one of the worst dacs and the worst amps measured here have no audible affect. The problem I have with it is isn’t my experience after owning the unit. There are times while using it in our theater I wanted to play it closer to reference volume and after a few minutes, always had to back the volume back down to -12 to -15 to sound ok. In my other listenening space it is not an issue at all listening at reference level and it is actually quite enjoyable. In my opinion, I don’t think your position is defensible. There are situations where a user wants to have the master volume between zero and -10, and in my opinion I don’t think it sounds good. Looking at @amirm ’s measurements, it seems like there are pretty good reason to believe that may be the case. Again, there may be situation where it works fine in smaller rooms, where the main listening position is closer to the speakers etc where the volume is maintained around -15 to -20 that it would sound fine. That was the case when I moved it to our living room and it was actually quite nice with Dirac, and an integrated Roon endpoint where we used it to watch tv and listen to music at a moderate volume. But it doesn’t make sense to me, to keep saying none of these measurements are audible when in fact I think there is a pretty good case to be made there are in some circumstances. Bottom line is the amps are terrible, the dac/preamp section is terrible, dirac (that they had no hand in) is great, and it has some great features. In my opinion there are still audible issues, even with Dirac applied, in many situations. Because of this, and my interactions with NAD, I won’t purchase another NAD product that has not been fully bench tested by a 3rd party. Sorry for the rant, it just bugs me a bit to keep hearing this unit has no audiible issues because of Dirac (which I think is also great).

You’re using different speakers in a different room. There are certainly other much more likely explanations for your experience, not evening getting into confirmation bias, etc.

 

[Dj7675]

You should read the beginning of this thread which has posts about what Dirac doesn’t and what it does. Any distortion from the DAC being audible or not does not depend on whether Dirac is applied or not. Nor does it affect how Diract works to “blur it”.

Except that is not what I said at all in the quoted post. It was in reference to the claim earlier that the DAC performance somehow “blurs” the effect of using Dirac. Just stating that they are two different things and that the audibility (or not) of the DAC performance is not affected by use of Dirac and vice versa.

Sorry if I misinterpreted what are saying... my point is really that the issues in the amp, preamp, and dac can be audible. One member went to great lengths to compile some great information, which I have found very useful in regards to audibility. You may, or may not find it useful, but I found it to be a very good, condensed recap.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-thresholds-of-amp-and-dac-measurements.5734/

 

[Dj7675]

You’re using different speakers in a different room. There are certainly other much more likely explanations for your experience, not evening getting into confirmation bias, etc.

Maybe... maybe not. ... Nobody is immune to confirmation bias, very true. However, It gets a little tiresome when some say, the distortion etc for this unit (or any for that matter) is not audible. I am actually more surprised you can’t hear it at high volumes, in particular with what the measurements show at higher volumes.
And, while completely unscientific, I purchased a Denon X8500 and installed it in the same room, and went through Audysses setup with the app. Watched 2 movies at around -5 on the master volume... no fatigue, never had the need to turn it down. Could it be confirmation bias... possible. Or maybe it is that that the T758 V3 measurements are so bad at high volume that the. X8500 just sounds better at high volume without the high levels of distortion present like the T787 V3 does. This is just my experience, but makes sense to me. It is just surprising that this unit, measuring so badly compared to all other receivers, gets the kind of defense it does. Doesn’t really make sense to me, but each to their own.

 

[Theriverlethe]

Sorry if I misinterpreted what are saying... my point is really that the issues in the amp, preamp, and dac can be audible. One member went to great lengths to compile some great information, which I have found very useful in regards to audibility. You may, or may not find it useful, but I found it to be a very good, condensed recap.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-thresholds-of-amp-and-dac-measurements.5734/

Very few people would consider nwavguy's standards "lenient." There is a good thread on masking research in the same subforum:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ship-to-nonlinear-distortion-audibility.4784/

 

[MickeyBoy]

If the NAD's DACs are in the audio pathway when applying Dirac Live you don't think it can adversely affect the end sound quality entering our ears?
If distortion is introduced, is it a smooth sensation or a nasty distraction?

Sound perception aside, I looked @ many Dirac Live graphs from the NAD T758 V3 receiver and they measure pretty "swell".

Did anyone mention that there are three fans inside, @ the bottom front?
View attachment 38058

And the Mic needs to be replaced by a better one.
View attachment 38059

A UMik-1 is a better option.

 

[Theriverlethe]

A UMik-1 is a better option.

The NAD's included mic setup is hilarious.

 

[Theriverlethe]

Maybe... maybe not. ... Nobody is immune to confirmation bias, very true. However, It gets a little tiresome when some say, the distortion etc for this unit (or any for that matter) is not audible. I am actually more surprised you can’t hear it at high volumes, in particular with what the measurements show at higher volumes.
And, while completely unscientific, I purchased a Denon X8500 and installed it in the same room, and went through Audysses setup with the app. Watched 2 movies at around -5 on the master volume... no fatigue, never had the need to turn it down. Could it be confirmation bias... possible. Or maybe it is that that the T758 V3 measurements are so bad at high volume that the. X8500 just sounds better at high volume without the high levels of distortion present like the T787 V3 does. This is just my experience, but makes sense to me. It is just surprising that this unit, measuring so badly compared to all other receivers, gets the kind of defense it does. Doesn’t really make sense to me, but each to their own.

The Denon at -5dB will likely be a completely different SPL, unfortunately.

Edit: To clarify, any comparison that isn’t carefully level-matched becomes meaningless. You might guess this from the Fletcher-Munson curve showing different perception of frequencies at different SPL. The sample variation in these cheap calibration mics (maybe 2-3dB) is more than enough to ruin a blind comparison, even if the calibration software shares the same output target.

 

[Dj7675]

The Denon at -5dB will likely be a completely different SPL, unfortunately.

If the NAD's DACs are in the audio pathway when applying Dirac Live you don't think it can adversely affect the end sound quality entering our ears?
If distortion is introduced, is it a smooth sensation or a nasty distraction?

Sound perception aside, I looked @ many Dirac Live graphs from the NAD T758 V3 receiver and they measure pretty "swell".

Did anyone mention that there are three fans inside, @ the bottom front?
View attachment 38058

And the Mic needs to be replaced by a better one.
View attachment 38059

I remember when I first got mine out o the box, and say the usb/dongle thingy and the mic setup, I was like WTF is this. It works but is quite the funky setup. And yes, using a Umik is great option.

 

[North_Sky]

A UMik-1 is a better option.

That's the one.

 

[tparm]

Whelp, impulse purchase last night, I bought a mildly used Arcam AVR850 so my quest for the T778 has ended. My T758 V3 is for sale.....