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Review and Measurements of NAD T758 V3 AVR

xhattan

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I find this discussion of T758 V3 an interesting case of how bad something can measure and still sound good which I think is important since how something ultimately sounds is the point. If it sounds good to you, I don't think anyone has a problem with that (I know I don't). But a few random comments from my perspective...
-I have owned the T758 V3 for about 18 months. I really do like Dirac. However, I was curious how it would test, so I bought a second one (new with the updated board from safeandsoundhq.com, which by the way are great to deal with). I don't think there is any reason to think it was defective. In addition to @amirm much more extensive testing, Sound and Vision also did their normal bench test which was also pretty poor it looks to me (link). I also attached the Denon X7200 for comparison. I don't think there is any reason to think it was defective, it just measures really, really bad. You don't need a 40K receiver (is there such a thing) to perform pretty well.
-It is great that the poor measurements aren't audible to you. It has Dirac, has a lot of features etc. But I do take issue with comments that say this really poor measurements of both the DAC and the Amps aren't audible... to anyone, at any level. That is a pretty bold statement that I just think is way over the top. I wouldn't be surprised if quite a lot of people would be able to pick on on that noise/distortion caused at those levels. Those measurements are pretty crazy bad.. In my theater, it sounded good to me (I do not have golden ears by any means) at moderate levels but found that after a few minutes I would always have to back off the volume to around -15 despite wanting it louder. Never gave it much thought until after I saw the measurements. I also moved the unit from the theater to our living room (much noisier environment) and an untreated room, and again found it sounded fine with volume from -15 to -25 on the volume. So while it sounds great to you at all levels, it doesn't to me in my setup at louder volumes.

-For $1499 ($1000 off) you can now get an Arcam AVR390. I couldn't find a bench test for one but looking at their other models it seems they measure relatively well and don't have to deal with the issues of the T758 which will be an issue for some people.

Just a few thoughts from a soon to be former owner. YMMV of course. It is just a receiver, so I don't get worked up about things and am happy that you are enjoying it. Carry on :)

Yes, maybe others can hear distortion. I did not, but only tested at 0 dB, I didn´t go further as my ears couldn´t bear such a loud volume, and also was afraid to blow my speakers. And maybe, just maybe, you had to lower volume due to the harsh highs that DIRAC sometimes configurates, and needs from you to perform a few tweeks to tame them. Try the NAD curve, it worked in my room.

And yes, NAD could have engineered a better AVR. At a higher cost I guess, but still.

Finally, a guy at AVS (@Markus767), that practically solved all initial issues with the T758, also tested the Arcam and found serious errors in the bass management implementation of that AVR. Can´t comment anything else, as I have never heard that device. Would be nice if Amir could test it. At $1500, it seems like a very good deal too.

Regards.
 

Theriverlethe

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Yes, maybe others can hear distortion. I did not, but only tested at 0 dB, I didn´t go further as my ears couldn´t bear such a loud volume, and also was afraid to blow my speakers. And maybe, just maybe, you had to lower volume due to the harsh highs that DIRAC sometimes configurates, and needs from you to perform a few tweeks to tame them. Try the NAD curve, it worked in my room.

And yes, NAD could have engineered a better AVR. At a higher cost I guess, but still.

Finally, a guy at AVS (@Markus767), that practically solved all initial issues with the T758, also tested the Arcam and found serious errors in the bass management implementation of that AVR. Can´t comment anything else, as I have never heard that device. Would be nice if Amir could test it. At $1500, it seems like a very good deal too.

Regards.

I think the NAD curve is pretty close to the Harman curve for “expert listeners.” I will say, based on my recent testing with REQ, Dirac is on a completely different level from Audyssey XT32.
 

Sal1950

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I think the NAD curve is pretty close to the Harman curve for “expert listeners.” I will say, based on my recent testing with REQ, Dirac is on a completely different level from Audyssey XT32.
Maybe not so much after you add the Editor app to Audyssey
 

Theriverlethe

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Maybe not so much after you add the Editor app to Audyssey

No, Audyssey screws up speaker levels, sub delays, and tries to adjust for midrange nulls that don’t exist at the main listening position. It also can’t get the subs in phase with more than one set of speakers (I believe it tries to get them in phase with the center while setting the mains to “large,” thus putting them out of phase with the mains by default). The app can help compensate for some of these problems, but only with careful tweaking. I wouldn’t try to use Audyssey above 500Hz. Dirac is capable of getting the LFE in phase with all channels, while actually improving high frequencies at the main listening position. YMMV.

Edit: Audyssey can only be fixed with other measurement software like REQ. I’ve never gotten a bad result when following instructions with Dirac.
 
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Sal1950

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No, Audyssey screws up speaker levels, sub delays, and tries to adjust for midrange nulls that don’t exist at the main listening position. It also can’t get the subs in phase with more than one set of speakers (I believe it tries to get them in phase with the center while setting the mains to “large,” thus putting them out of phase with the mains by default). The app can help compensate for some of these problems, but only with careful tweaking. I wouldn’t try to use Audyssey above 500Hz. Dirac is capable of getting the LFE in phase with all channels, while actually improving high frequencies at the main listening position. YMMV.

Edit: Audyssey can only be fixed with other measurement software like REQ. I’ve never gotten a bad result when following instructions with Dirac.
I don't know who has done any real measurement comparisons so I can't comment on any of your statements.
I can tell you Dirac is just now getting out gear with the new software build that is capible of doing DSP for more than one subwoofer.
My Marantz 7703 with XT32 has had true dual sub compensation since 10/2016, a three year jump on Dirac.
 

Theriverlethe

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I don't know who has done any real measurement comparisons so I can't comment on any of your statements.
I can tell you Dirac is just now getting out gear with the new software build that is capible of doing DSP for more than one subwoofer.
My Marantz 7703 with XT32 has had true dual sub compensation since 10/2016, a three year jump on Dirac.

Audyssey sums the response of all subs for EQ purposes. It is capable of setting delays independently, so this may be an advantage if you don't have them in phase with each other to begin with. Here's an attempt I made at dialing in Audyssey to approximate a Harman curve through the app. I already changed the delays when I made these screenshots, so the big null near the crossover frequency was eliminated. The second shot shows Dirac's output with no tweaking.
 

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Sal1950

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It is capable of setting delays independently, so this may be an advantage if you don't have them in phase with each other to begin with.
I consider it a valuable addition when your subs are at very different distances from the listening chair which is the case for most trying to distribute room mode responses.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Aud+Editor is a better or even equal to Dirac.
But on the other hand your statement of "on a completely different level from Audyssey XT32" was also over the top
 

Theriverlethe

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I consider it a valuable addition when your subs are at very different distances from the listening chair which is the case for most trying to distribute room mode responses.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Aud+Editor is a better or even equal to Dirac.
But on the other hand your statement of "on a completely different level from Audyssey XT32" was also over the top

Getting five channels in phase with the subs and actually coming close to the desired curve at the main listening position without significant tweaking is enough to put Dirac on a different level, at least in my setup. I’m sure it’s possible to get an acceptable result from XT32 with a lot of trial and error.
 
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xhattan

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I think the NAD curve is pretty close to the Harman curve for “expert listeners.” I will say, based on my recent testing with REQ, Dirac is on a completely different level from Audyssey XT32.

The Harman curve did not worked in my room. It didn´t sound bad, but didn´t have the image the NAD curve had.
 

Theriverlethe

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The Harman curve did not worked in my room. It didn´t sound bad, but didn´t have the image the NAD curve had.

I must’ve been looking at Dr. Toole’s version, where he breaks it down into trained, untrained and average preference. The NAD curve is closer to the trained preference.
09B0E1DF-CF92-484D-BDFD-D447B1118F8F.png
 

tparm

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Does anyone know how to arrange having something shipped these guys for testing? I am willing to buy a new T778 and have it drop shipped. I just need to confirm it can be tested and returned in a timely manner in case it blows so I can return it. ;) The 778 looks "all new" going to their Digital Hybrid amp section and Sabre DACs, lets just hope the implementation is better than it is on the 758.3. Although once again, I think mine sounds pretty good.....

So many good looking new $3k receivers out there but none with BluOS and Dirac and I don't have Arcam money.

The architecture of the new R1.3 Integra and SC-LX904 Elite are attractive but I don't care for their room correction. Anthem is an option, but I need nine channels of amplification and don't want to spend 1120 money. I don't suppose cambridge Audio is coming out with new HT receivers anytime soon?

I have a good connection for NAD product, and I actually like my 758.3, so I plan to go the 778 route and hope there aren't too many bugs for early adopters to work through (wishful thinking I suppose).
 

Dj7675

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Very simpl
Does anyone know how to arrange having something shipped these guys for testing? I am willing to buy a new T778 and have it drop shipped. I just need to confirm it can be tested and returned in a timely manner in case it blows so I can return it. ;) The 778 looks "all new" going to their Digital Hybrid amp section and Sabre DACs, lets just hope the implementation is better than it is on the 758.3. Although once again, I think mine sounds pretty good.....

So many good looking new $3k receivers out there but none with BluOS and Dirac and I don't have Arcam money.

The architecture of the new R1.3 Integra and SC-LX904 Elite are attractive but I don't care for their room correction. Anthem is an option, but I need nine channels of amplification and don't want to spend 1120 money. I don't suppose cambridge Audio is coming out with new HT receivers anytime soon?

I have a good connection for NAD product, and I actually like my 758.3, so I plan to go the 778 route and hope there aren't too many bugs for early adopters to work through (wishful thinking I suppose).

This would be great to test the 778. Simply start a conversation with @amirm . It is his site and he does the testing. I have sent in 4 items now. The more members send in interesting items, the better!
 

audimus

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I don't suppose cambridge Audio is coming out with new HT receivers anytime soon?
Cambridge Audio is actually discontinuing their AVR line that they introduced earlier. They, like most non mass market vendors, probably just don’t have the volumes/returns necessary for yearly product cycles to keep pace with the changing technology versions in the front end, especially to do in-house designs. NAD seems to have gone into system integration business with third party components to make it work.
 

tparm

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Cambridge Audio is actually discontinuing their AVR line that they introduced earlier. They, like most non mass market vendors, probably just don’t have the volumes/returns necessary for yearly product cycles to keep pace with the changing technology versions in the front end, especially to do in-house designs. NAD seems to have gone into system integration business with third party components to make it work.

What third party components are you thinking NAD is using? Aside from Sabre and Dirac, but all makers use third party DACs and many license third party room correction. Looks like they have developed their Digital Hybrid amp stages and are realizing efficiencies from integrating that tech into their whole line from stereo integrated amps to the 778.
 
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amirm

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Does anyone know how to arrange having something shipped these guys for testing? I am willing to buy a new T778 and have it drop shipped. I just need to confirm it can be tested and returned in a timely manner in case it blows so I can return it. ;)
I have done a lot of arrangements like this. Start a conversation with me and I will give you the shipping address to use when buying it. Once it gets here, stay on top of me to get it done prior to your return window closing. If you choose to return it, get me the return authorization number/shipping info and I will send it back to them.
 

audimus

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What third party components are you thinking NAD is using? Aside from Sabre and Dirac, but all makers use third party DACs and many license third party room correction. Looks like they have developed their Digital Hybrid amp stages and are realizing efficiencies from integrating that tech into their whole line from stereo integrated amps to the 778.

Custom Hypex nCore modules for power amp stages. I believe they have also outsourced the connectivity protocol handlers like a lot of manufacturers for the front end. I have also heard from some sources that they might OEM their entire replaceable modules if they have not already done so. All this isn’t necessarily bad. Just saying it might be necessary for brands without mass market volumes to even stay in this area. The D&Ms, Yamahas and Sony’s have a different mass market approach with multi-tiered pricing that allows them to keep design and manufacturing in house.
 

North_Sky

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I was looking @ the measurements of this receiver the other day, and then again today.
To say that they are deceiving receiver's measurements would be an understatement.
Are they allowed to release products like that with Dirac (Lite)? Is THX dead? I mean it has to pass a bunch of tests before being certified, so that's a positive no matter how much love or hate is for THX...unless they are not serious and it's all Monster Kable sales advertising push type stuff enchilada money for nothing, chicks for free.

I feel sad because NAD is generally well viewed, and Dirac Live is one of the very best auto Room EQ system. But if the audio product misses the basics how beneficial Dirac Lite truly is?

NAD receivers in the past (some AV models) had Audyssey MultEQ XT custom house curve specially made for NAD, like this older guy for example:
https://www.soundandvision.com/content/nad-t-787-av-receiver

Now their top models include an even better Room EQ system with Dirac. But this receiver right here is highly questionable on its DAC's performance, and overall noise and poor (miserable) audio resolution.

Wow, I just said a lot...I hope it wasn't too much.
 
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tparm

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I have done a lot of arrangements like this. Start a conversation with me and I will give you the shipping address to use when buying it. Once it gets here, stay on top of me to get it done prior to your return window closing. If you choose to return it, get me the return authorization number/shipping info and I will send it back to them.

Thanks and once I figure out when it’s actually shipping I’ll reach out to you directly. And thanks for your willingness to accommodate the return shipping if necessary.

Trevor
 

Theriverlethe

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I was looking @ the measurements of this receiver the other day, and then again today.
To say that they are deceiving receiver's measurements would be an understatement.
Are they allowed to release products like that with Dirac (Lite)? Is THX dead? I mean it has to pass a bunch of tests before being certified, so that's a positive no matter how much love or hate is for THX...unless they are not serious and it's all Monster Kable sales advertising push type stuff enchilada money for nothing, chicks for free.

I feel sad because NAD is generally well viewed, and Dirac Live is one of the very best auto Room EQ system. But if the audio product misses the basics how beneficial Dirac Lite truly is?

NAD receivers in the past (some AV models) had Audyssey MultEQ XT custom house curve specially made for NAD, like this older guy for example:
https://www.soundandvision.com/content/nad-t-787-av-receiver

Now their top models include an even better Room EQ system with Dirac. But this receiver right here is highly questionable on its DAC's performance, and overall noise and poor (miserable) audio resolution.

Wow, I just said a lot...I hope it wasn't too much.

What's deceiving? I don't think the receiver is THX-certified, but it certainly provides 100 watts of amplification with inaudible distortion, according to Sound and Vision's testing. Amir's measurements don't dispute this. The 0dB setting appears to be calibrated for higher than 105dB reference peaks, so it should fail THX in that respect. NAD's rating of 110W at 0.08% is overly optimistic, but not egregiously so.
 
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