Revel M105 Bookshelf Speaker Review

[Narnian]

You didn’t mention the size of your room, but the 100 wpc rating of the Yam is certainly adequate for most rooms (means 10 watts sustained into the speaker plus 10x headroom for dynamics). The Yam also has a lot of nice features that fit your need. I’d suggest the best audible value for money would be a subwoofer to pair with both systems. Any "better" amp will probably not offer audible improvements, certainly not as much as a sub. Also, use REW to optimize the room setup - that will make a huge difference too.

It is 15’ x 25’ but the listening area is in a the end turned to the long side so that is 15’x15’. 8’ to 11’ ceiling sloping up from the speaker location. Open rafters, log cabin with wood walls everywhere. Not the ideal layout. I do have a Yanto 8” sealed sub (I like sealed for music). Will upgrade sub if needed.

 

[Narnian]

I would recommend Hypex 256MP amp from Buckey. Enough power and good SINAD and dynamic range. But it requires Balanced DAC.

If you have money to spend, Benchmark AMP to go. It is about ~3k

if that amp could work with the Sabaj A20d DAC it would be under $1,000. Just needs a streamer/pre-amp on the front.

pardon my ignorance but what does the balanced output get you?

 

[pdfield34]

Now that I have the M105 speakers I need to decide what are the best options to drive it with. So far I have been using a Sonos Amp (to be sold) and the Yamaha Adventage A2A second zone (I have the main surround set up with Revel M8 5 speaker setup (the sound caused me to research Revel).

1. Use the Yamaha AVR 2nd zone - advantage I can use my Apple TV to stream Apple music and my Plex server for everything else (NAS, etc.)

2. Get a second dedicated amp setup (Return the Yamaha for a cheaper AVR to get money for an amp). I am 95% music and 5% movies so a better amp makes sense.

Clarifying questions?

1. How much power do these puppies want to sound their best? 50-120W is the Revel recommended range so I am thinking the mid-point at 85W RMS would be a practical minimum.

2. Anybody have recommended amps that match well? Let’s say preferably at a $1,000 or less but can go to $1,500. I suspect I cannot afford the “perfect amp” in my budget.

I'm probably going to get two Outlaw 2220s for a total of $700 - $800 and then never worry about power again.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...outlaw-2220-review-monoblock-amplifier.31520/
Also looking at Rythmik L12 for ~$600.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/rythmik-l12-subwoofer-review.12140/

Currently have an Emotiva integrated amp. No problems with it at all - sounds good to me. Would buy an Emotiva amp with more power - but the
Outlaws have better documented SINAD (if that matters - assuming here Emotiva SINAD is at an acceptable level) and they offer more power (not sure if I will ever use it).
Basically just want to do something different.

 

[AudioKC]

if that amp could work with the Sabaj A20d DAC it would be under $1,000. Just needs a streamer/pre-amp on the front.

pardon my ignorance but what does the balanced output get you?

Balanced design of AMPs/DACs makes signal go in 180degree phase in two wires, with third as ground, basically +/- are signals to reproduce by speakers, where unbalanced (regular RCA) simply two wires: ground and signal.

Usually balanced used in PRO equipment and provides better noise floor and SINAD. In my experience, Balanced designed equipment, especially amps with no volume control (fixed gain) provides superb channel separation and low channels cross talk.

But in the end, if Hypex 252MP been unbalanced, I would still buy it. Bought it because it is excellent AMP, not because it has balanced design.

I other words, there are great products that use unbalanced design. But if you will run long wires, or want superb channel separation / noise floor, usually that require balanced design (not always true though).

BTW any speaker by default balanced design. +/- signals.

Lets hear from maestro himself on that topic

 

[AudioKC]

if that amp could work with the Sabaj A20d DAC it would be under $1,000. Just needs a streamer/pre-amp on the front.

pardon my ignorance but what does the balanced output get you?

About streamer, check this: WiiM Mini, it is amazing streaming device, excellent optical output and EQ in the app! What a steal, given integration with majority of streaming services + DLNA Network player!

Just do not use Streamer audio output, use optical output

Check this out, clean as can be

WiiM Mini Review (Streamer)

This is a review and detailed measurements of the WiiM Mini Wifi/Bluetooth streamer. It is on kind loan from a member and is on sale on Amazon for US $89. As you can see the former factor is a "hockey puck." An included phone charger needs to be used to power the unit over USB-C. It did not...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Narnian]

About streamer, check this: WiiM Mini, it is amazing streaming device, excellent optical output and EQ in the app! What a steal, given integration with majority of streaming services + DLNA Network player!

Just do not use Streamer audio output, use optical output

Check this out, clean as can be

WiiM Mini Review (Streamer)

This is a review and detailed measurements of the WiiM Mini Wifi/Bluetooth streamer. It is on kind loan from a member and is on sale on Amazon for US $89. As you can see the former factor is a "hockey puck." An included phone charger needs to be used to power the unit over USB-C. It did not...

www.audiosciencereview.com

I would probably be more interested in the “Pro” version when it comes out based on the predicted feature set. I am not a fan of any DLNA implementation I have seen so far. On my AVR I am running a Plex client on my Apple TV to a Plex server on the NAS. That way I have one stop shopping for everything on my NAS with a superior interface on the TV.

My Sonos amp connects directly to a NAS share bypassing DLNA.

 

[Narnian]

Balanced design of AMPs/DACs makes signal go in 180degree phase in two wires, with third as ground, basically +/- are signals to reproduce by speakers, where unbalanced (regular RCA) simply two wires: ground and signal.

Usually balanced used in PRO equipment and provides better noise floor and SINAD. In my experience, Balanced designed equipment, especially amps with no volume control (fixed gain) provides superb channel separation and low channels cross talk.

But in the end, if Hypex 252MP been unbalanced, I would still buy it. Bought it because it is excellent AMP, not because it has balanced design.

I other words, there are great products that use unbalanced design. But if you will run long wires, or want superb channel separation / noise floor, usually that require balanced design (not always true though).

BTW any speaker by default balanced design. +/- signals.

Lets hear from maestro himself on that topic

The Hypex looks like a great amp actually. One option I was thinking would be to use the AVR as a preamp for Zone 2 which would allow me to put a dedicated amp on it but that would require the amp to support both balanced and unbalanced inputs. My goal would be to test it in steps adding a DAC, streamer, etc later.

I need more research but it looks like for under a grand I can beat the much more expensive systems. Whatever I get I want to be able to have an equalizer to make Amirm’s suggested changes. The Yamaha AVR has a 6 channel equalizer per speaker it appears which will help.

 

[Narnian]

So I will set up the system as originally planned with Zone 2 using the AVR amp and Apple TV.

When the updated Wiim “pro” comes out get that and a DAC and run that through the AVR to Zone 2 and see what differences I can hear between it and the Apple TV/Plex setup. If none I am too old. Order my coffin.

If I can hear noticeable improvements then get an external amp and listen for further improvements. testing through the AVR as a preamp and directly.

 

[rbk]

I just got a pair of the M105s (a bit over $1K at Crutchfield for open box), and will be pairing them with my SVS SB Pro1000 sub. I plan on putting the M105s about 2 ft from the long side of the wall with ports plugged (likely, but not 100% sure yet--I hate muddy base). Sub will in the center of the M105s, about 18" off the hardwood floor. I'll sit about 7 ft in front of the speakers. I live in an apartment so I can never run very loud--at most "medium" volume. I have an EQ and plan on cutting off the M105s below 50Hz (unless someone can convince me otherwise). With this info, can someone recommend a cross-over frequency and dB roll-off for the Sub? I'm thinking 100Hz with a 6dB roll-off? I'll experiment of course, but would like to hear what's worked for others.

 

[tw 2022]

I just got a pair of the M105s (a bit over $1K at Crutchfield for open box), and will be pairing them with my SVS SB Pro1000 sub. I plan on putting the M105s about 2 ft from the long side of the wall with ports plugged (likely, but not 100% sure yet--I hate muddy base). Sub will in the center of the M105s, about 18" off the hardwood floor. I'll sit about 7 ft in front of the speakers. I live in an apartment so I can never run very loud--at most "medium" volume. I have an EQ and plan on cutting off the M105s below 50Hz (unless someone can convince me otherwise). With this info, can someone recommend a cross-over frequency and dB roll-off for the Sub? I'm thinking 100Hz with a 6dB roll-off? I'll experiment of course, but would like to hear what's worked for others.

I like the crossover , as for roll off I'd try 12 db , but that's not a given...

 

[aarons915]

The Hypex looks like a great amp actually. One option I was thinking would be to use the AVR as a preamp for Zone 2 which would allow me to put a dedicated amp on it but that would require the amp to support both balanced and unbalanced inputs. My goal would be to test it in steps adding a DAC, streamer, etc later.

I need more research but it looks like for under a grand I can beat the much more expensive systems. Whatever I get I want to be able to have an equalizer to make Amirm’s suggested changes. The Yamaha AVR has a 6 channel equalizer per speaker it appears which will help.

The Yamaha PEQ are at set frequencies so unless your speaker needs correction at these frequencies it's usefulness is very limited. If you're using PC as a source, I've found Equalizer APO with the Peace addon to be the best way of adding PEQ to any of your PC sources.

 

[rbk]

I like the crossover , as for roll off I'd try 12 db , but that's not a given...

Thanks very much--I will use that as a starting point.

 

[Narnian]

The Yamaha PEQ are at set frequencies so unless your speaker needs correction at these frequencies it's usefulness is very limited. If you're using PC as a source, I've found Equalizer APO with the Peace addon to be the best way of adding PEQ to any of your PC sources.

Don’t let my PC near the stereo …

I will likely do separates something time down the road and will be looking for more nuance equalizer capabilities.

 

[AudioKC]

Got speakers today.

simply put: superb!

1. Sounds lovely (even without PEQ), neutral, with some “attempt” to be presented warmish, but still neautral. Bass is crisp, mids and treble are lively
2. Easily merged together with my Monolith 12 thxv2 sub. I expected problems… but it works perfectly
3. Imagining is so great, that I relistening everything in my library and getting new experience
4. If set up correctly, can disappear in room ( away from walls, on stands, good description how to do it in manual that comes with speaker)
5. The level of details in that tweeter is insane. It is most resolutions capable tweeter that I heard
6. Sparation of instruments is also good.
7. More importantly, off axis it is sounds also amazing! I love listen music with my wife…

Later gonna measure for dirac live and share experience with room correction enabled. Do not expect much to be corrected, except bass cancelation of the walls…


if you looking for small bookshelf speaker with incredible performance. This is it. Just get.

p.s. Looks also nice

 

[Chromatischism]

The Yamaha PEQ are at set frequencies so unless your speaker needs correction at these frequencies it's usefulness is very limited. If you're using PC as a source, I've found Equalizer APO with the Peace addon to be the best way of adding PEQ to any of your PC sources.

Definitely. And some day we will have affordable and easy FIR/IIR EQ that can be set for all sources on the PC as well, in an upgrade to PEQ. Maybe that already exists and I'm not aware of it.

 

[AudioKC]

I just got a pair of the M105s (a bit over $1K at Crutchfield for open box), and will be pairing them with my SVS SB Pro1000 sub. I plan on putting the M105s about 2 ft from the long side of the wall with ports plugged (likely, but not 100% sure yet--I hate muddy base). Sub will in the center of the M105s, about 18" off the hardwood floor. I'll sit about 7 ft in front of the speakers. I live in an apartment so I can never run very loud--at most "medium" volume. I have an EQ and plan on cutting off the M105s below 50Hz (unless someone can convince me otherwise). With this info, can someone recommend a cross-over frequency and dB roll-off for the Sub? I'm thinking 100Hz with a 6dB roll-off? I'll experiment of course, but would like to hear what's worked for others.

I did at 90hz with 12db default roll off. merged OK, without blown off sub sound.

 

[rbk]

I did at 90hz with 12db default roll off. merged OK, without blown off sub sound.

Thanks--I'll give that a try too.

 

[AudioKC]

Hi experienced forum users.

Quick question on distortion graph and recommendation to filter lowest octave out. I tried to understand this distortion graph from original review.

It says that there is total distortion (100%) at 20hz and about 50% at 32hz… (if convert from db to %), but at the same time, if we look at the output level, there is practically no output at 20hz and 32hz, look at these two graphs (on axis and directivity). Output so low, so we cannot or will not hear it over the sub output (I understand this output will be additional distortion to sub output, but it is besides the my point).

In original review there been recommendation to filter out high distortion, but, that high distortion of non existent output, so why bother?

Do I read that correctly? I just another guy who tries to learn, nothing more

Thank you!

 

[MediumRare]

Hi experienced forum users.

Quick question on distortion graph and recommendation to filter lowest octave out. I tried to understand this distortion graph from original review.

It says that there is total distortion (100%) at 20hz and about 50% at 32hz… (if convert from db to %), but at the same time, if we look at the output level, there is practically no output at 20hz and 32hz, look at these two graphs (on axis and directivity). Output so low, so we cannot or will not hear it over the sub output (I understand this output will be additional distortion to sub output, but it is besides the my point).

In original review there been recommendation to filter out high distortion, but, that high distortion of non existent output, so why bother?

Yes, you are correct about the high percentages of distortion at lower frequencies. Amir has mentioned that and it’s why he generally shows distortion in absolute levels as well.

I believe the answer to your second question is that, by reducing the useless work both the speaker and amp are doing to drive, essentially, distortion below 35 Hz, you have the potential to improve the sound above 35 hz. Remember, you use significantly more power in lower frequencies than higher, so subtract that wasted power and you are better off.

Amir mentioned when he did that he thought the bass actually sounded cleaner because audible distortion at the harmonics (e.g. a 35 Hz fundamental has harmonics at 70, 105, 140) were eliminated, leaving the relatively deep 40-50 Hz levels clean and audible.

For my m105s I use an amp with DSP to roll off most everything below 30 Hz - seems to work very well according to my REW measurements- even without a sub. I have plugged my ports, too, as my speakers are wall-mounted.

 

[AudioKC]

Thank you. So these filters might reduce distortion in higher frequencies. It makes sense