Revel F328Be Speaker Review

[YSC]

Yup! Just as the sound can be affected (negatively) in non-obvious ways by adding a sub.




Sure, which isn't a problem if your speakers don't sound "unexciting and unengaging."

I mean, I get your point certainly, but it's not easy to integrate subs which is the main point. I had a hard time keeping the tone I loved, a major feature
of why I bought my speakers, when trying to integrate a sub. I can imagine other people may not be as picky about that particular aspect and revel
in what a sub brings, but that's not how it worked for me. Also, I was somewhat limited in where I could place the subs, aesthetically, ergonomically etc.



I did both. First by ear. Then I used a DSpeaker Anti-mode 2 to measure/even out the bass in the room (from the crossover point down, e.g. anywhere from 40Hz up to 100Hz, I experimented a lot) which helped in that respect. But it still slightly altered the sound of the speakers in a way I didn't care for, including losing some of the excitement and punch I was used to.

Which, to me, re-enforced that it is quite challenging to integrate subs to a degree I would find satisfying, and there are real world limitations in many rooms in terms of
placing ever more powered speakers (subs). So it's a Good In Theory, Not So Easy In Practice thing. Whereas I've had tons of different floor standing speakers in my room,
typically rated down to 35Hz, some down to 25Hz, and I've rarely had issues with obvious bass boom, lack of integration or "something missing" in the sound that felt like a sub was needed.

I am somehow puzzled, IF the only thing you want is a well integrated bass response at the speaker location, putting the subs right next to each channel or even under it (like the W371a and The ones in genelec show case) should make it sound like a well extended speaker without the phase issue. punch/tactile feel should be related to group delay which if you got the right sub should be fine.

My guess is that in your previous exp I think what you've done was even out the response in FR domain only but not time domain, so it would sound slighlty off if time especially near the cross over region. IMO maybe you would want to use REW to see the time delay and phase to make it work for a well integrated sub, and somehow I have a feeling personally the subs with high pass filter is better than using LFE or so for ease of sub integration.

 

[MattHooper]

I am somehow puzzled, IF the only thing you want is a well integrated bass response at the speaker location, putting the subs right next to each channel or even under it (like the W371a and The ones in genelec show case) should make it sound like a well extended speaker without the phase issue. punch/tactile feel should be related to group delay which if you got the right sub should be fine.

My guess is that in your previous exp I think what you've done was even out the response in FR domain only but not time domain, so it would sound slighlty off if time especially near the cross over region. IMO maybe you would want to use REW to see the time delay and phase to make it work for a well integrated sub, and somehow I have a feeling personally the subs with high pass filter is better than using LFE or so for ease of sub integration.

As I mentioned: part of the challenge with subwoofers is just real-world limitations. Like many, I can't just place the subs anywhere I want. If I placed them right beside my L/R speakers they'd be eye-sores and also become ergonomic problems. So I had part of the back wall behind the speakers along which to place one sub, the other diagonally across the room behind the listening sofa. I tried each sub on their own, and together, again using DSP for the sub signals.

Sure it could have been a phase issue (though I had control of phase and used test tones to try to get it right). But, again...this is why adding subs is no walk in the park.
You are playing "speaker designer."

And plenty of people have been adding subs to their systems in simalar set ups - subs behind the main speakers, or even nearer the listening position, and have ended up quite happy and "wow did subwoofers ever improve my system!" And I have no doubt they perceived that. But to get the level of coherence and performance I would demand, it was just too much bother and I never quite achieved it under my circumstances.

Whereas I can plop some floor standers in the room and, voila, get wonderful coherent sound.

 

[SimpleTheater]

As I mentioned: part of the challenge with subwoofers is just real-world limitations. Like many, I can't just place the subs anywhere I want. If I placed them right beside my L/R speakers they'd be eye-sores and also become ergonomic problems. So I had part of the back wall behind the speakers along which to place one sub, the other diagonally across the room behind the listening sofa. I tried each sub on their own, and together, again using DSP for the sub signals.

Sure it could have been a phase issue (though I had control of phase and used test tones to try to get it right). But, again...this is why adding subs is no walk in the park.
You are playing "speaker designer."

And plenty of people have been adding subs to their systems in simalar set ups - subs behind the main speakers, or even nearer the listening position, and have ended up quite happy and "wow did subwoofers ever improve my system!" And I have no doubt they perceived that. But to get the level of coherence and performance I would demand, it was just too much bother and I never quite achieved it under my circumstances.

Whereas I can plop some floor standers in the room and, voila, get wonderful coherent sound.

It's time you decide what's important to you. Audio must take the top spot. All other things and people be damned. Put the subs where they belong and if they love you they will stay, if they don't, let them go!

 

[MattHooper]

It's time you decide what's important to you. Audio must take the top spot. All other things and people be damned. Put the subs where they belong and if they love you they will stay, if they don't, let them go!

Ha! I've seen audiophile rooms that are from the "it's just about the sound, aesthetics be damned" approach.

No thanks. They look like the rooms of guys who wear track pants in public and don't get many dates. I also want to keep my wife.

I care very much about the look and feel of a room. Good looking gear/rooms add to my enjoyment. I've never seen a subwoofer that wasn't an eye-sore (to me). When it comes to those "look at every bit of gear I own"audiophiles rooms, subwoofers all around, cabling all visible, etc, to me that's the equivalent of booking a meal at the best restaurant in town, but getting a seat by the toilets. Mood matters

 

[YSC]

Ha! I've seen audiophile rooms that are from the "it's just about the sound, aesthetics be damned" approach.

No thanks. They look like the rooms of guys who wear track pants in public and don't get many dates. I also want to keep my wife.

I care very much about the look and feel of a room. Good looking gear/rooms add to my enjoyment. I've never seen a subwoofer that wasn't an eye-sore (to me). When it comes to those "look at every bit of gear I own"audiophiles rooms, subwoofers all around, cabling all visible, etc, to me that's the equivalent of booking a meal at the best restaurant in town, but getting a seat by the toilets. Mood matters

Just for aesthetics I would have Sigberg audio inkognito (though very expensive to me) comes to mind. Also the KEF KC 92 comes to mind that don’t look odd in a room. For phase issue if you do it traditional way with limited phase control sure it’s very difficult to deal with, but then nowadays dsp with phase controlling options isn’t that difficult and kind of easy to have it measured and set up. IMO that’s less of a speaker designer issue. When look is important and money less of an issue you also have the Kii three with BXT module looking good to me, or if you wanna go full range, D&D to have minimise the bass issue in room by the cardioid design, though FR wise always limited by placement

 

[YSC]

Ha! I've seen audiophile rooms that are from the "it's just about the sound, aesthetics be damned" approach.

No thanks. They look like the rooms of guys who wear track pants in public and don't get many dates. I also want to keep my wife.

I care very much about the look and feel of a room. Good looking gear/rooms add to my enjoyment. I've never seen a subwoofer that wasn't an eye-sore (to me). When it comes to those "look at every bit of gear I own"audiophiles rooms, subwoofers all around, cabling all visible, etc, to me that's the equivalent of booking a meal at the best restaurant in town, but getting a seat by the toilets. Mood matters

Btw Matt, I am just curious, in a multi sub solution, say 2 subs in the front wall corner, would you consider the big black box being a asthetic problem? personally the big boxes in the corner snug fitting looks good to ok to me personally. that way you get max boosted SBIR reinforcement which could be tamed by EQ pretty easily and minimize the nulls present. I wonders if you would spend half an hour or so using DSP and REW to optimize the subs in room corners will that still have that big issue of WAF to you

 

[MattHooper]

Btw Matt, I am just curious, in a multi sub solution, say 2 subs in the front wall corner, would you consider the big black box being a asthetic problem? personally the big boxes in the corner snug fitting looks good to ok to me personally. that way you get max boosted SBIR reinforcement which could be tamed by EQ pretty easily and minimize the nulls present. I wonders if you would spend half an hour or so using DSP and REW to optimize the subs in room corners will that still have that big issue of WAF to you

In the corners is almost as good as it gets in terms of aesthetics to my mind, but they would still bother me. I just don't care for the look of subs. That's why hidden behind my sofa would have been best if things worked out.

I couldn't place subs in corners because there were already my L/R home theater speakers there (I have separate home theater speakers), as well as some other projection/masking stuff. So what I did was place one sub behind my sofa out of sight, and the other I placed along my screen wall behind my L/R stereo speakers.
My screen is surrounded by pitch black velvet, and the floor beneath the screen is a black velvet "stage" about two feet in to the room (not raised). My L/C/R home theater speakers sit on that black velvet stage area and each speaker is covered with fitted deep black velvet, even the stands, so that they disappear to the eye under most lighting conditions. Most people don't even know there are any other speakers in my room, except the obvious 2 channel floor standers pulled out in to my room.

So when I placed one of the subs beneath the screen, several feet to the side of my center channel, I made a fitted black velvet cover for the sub. That made it just about disappear along with the other speakers. However, one of the unexpected issues I had was placing the sub there seemed to exacerbate some bass issue, so now my home theater system sounded more boomy in the bass. This was baffling and some people suggested the 10" woofer of the sub (when not in use) may have been vibrating along with bass frequencies, augmenting them. Or maybe some sort of bass node piled up with the sub too close to my center channel. I don't know. But when I finally got rid of the sub there it seems my HT system went back to sounding it's usual self in the bass.

I really didn't care for all the complexity, hence sold the subs/crossover/DSP. But I haven't completely given up on subs. I will likely try a REL sub, behind my sofa, and see how that goes. I know they are not held in high regard here, but it is a generally simpler system which, if I can get it to work enough sonically, may suit my needs best. (Or...most likely...I won't use a sub).

 

[YSC]

In the corners is almost as good as it gets in terms of aesthetics to my mind, but they would still bother me. I just don't care for the look of subs. That's why hidden behind my sofa would have been best if things worked out.

I couldn't place subs in corners because there were already my L/R home theater speakers there (I have separate home theater speakers), as well as some other projection/masking stuff. So what I did was place one sub behind my sofa out of sight, and the other I placed along my screen wall behind my L/R stereo speakers.
My screen is surrounded by pitch black velvet, and the floor beneath the screen is a black velvet "stage" about two feet in to the room (not raised). My L/C/R home theater speakers sit on that black velvet stage area and each speaker is covered with fitted deep black velvet, even the stands, so that they disappear to the eye under most lighting conditions. Most people don't even know there are any other speakers in my room, except the obvious 2 channel floor standers pulled out in to my room.

So when I placed one of the subs beneath the screen, several feet to the side of my center channel, I made a fitted black velvet cover for the sub. That made it just about disappear along with the other speakers. However, one of the unexpected issues I had was placing the sub there seemed to exacerbate some bass issue, so now my home theater system sounded more boomy in the bass. This was baffling and some people suggested the 10" woofer of the sub (when not in use) may have been vibrating along with bass frequencies, augmenting them. Or maybe some sort of bass node piled up with the sub too close to my center channel. I don't know. But when I finally got rid of the sub there it seems my HT system went back to sounding it's usual self in the bass.

I really didn't care for all the complexity, hence sold the subs/crossover/DSP. But I haven't completely given up on subs. I will likely try a REL sub, behind my sofa, and see how that goes. I know they are not held in high regard here, but it is a generally simpler system which, if I can get it to work enough sonically, may suit my needs best. (Or...most likely...I won't use a sub).

Ic, just from imagining it sounds like that placement would be a disasterous integration, less than optimal location, and the velvet I would imagine just like getting a bad screen material to a driver, causing the FR, decay, resonance etc. in a bad speaker.

IMO (which obviously can be wrong) sub is only useful if you place it right at the same spot for the bookshelf to try make it more full range but with a smaller footprint, as such phase/timing is not an issue since they are basically in the same spot, but the room mode nulls will still be there.

Or if you do want to integrate a full audio system, place it in the right spot first before caring about how to mask it. I believe in your past case if you share the full REW data with sub it would show some serious phase, delay or distortion issue resulting in your impression

 

[MattHooper]

Ic, just from imagining it sounds like that placement would be a disasterous integration, less than optimal location, and the velvet I would imagine just like getting a bad screen material to a driver, causing the FR, decay, resonance etc. in a bad speaker.

I actually did most of the testing without the velvet on the sub under the screen (and the sub behind my sofa had no velvet). They were JL Audio subs and their crossover, and I checked with JL Audio (who were *very* helpful in answering all sorts of questions) about putting the velvet over the sub. It is actually very thin (almost) acoustically transparent velvet. So transparent many on the AV forums were using it as speaker grill material in the home theater builds. So that's a major reason I chose it. JL Audio assured me that given the type of velvet and especially the low frequencies put out by the sub, the velvet was unlikely to have any sonic consequences. (Vs putting it over a tweeter and those super short wavelengths).

I did not hear a difference when I put the velvet on. FWIW.

IMO (which obviously can be wrong) sub is only useful if you place it right at the same spot for the bookshelf to try make it more full range but with a smaller footprint, as such phase/timing is not an issue since they are basically in the same spot, but the room mode nulls will still be there.

Or if you do want to integrate a full audio system, place it in the right spot first before caring about how to mask it. I believe in your past case if you share the full REW data with sub it would show some serious phase, delay or distortion issue resulting in your impression

While I didn't have total flexibility, there shouldn't be anything particularly disastrous about the placement. JL Audio isn't expecting most people to place their subs right beside their tower speakers. Many people get on fine with the subs placed behind the speakers somewhere, and I managed to get mine to the "smoother" position (1/3 along the front wall) depicted in this subwoofer placement instruction guide:

Room Placement

www.jlaudio.com

Plus my listening sofa is in a good position (works great for my HT system and 2 channel speakers in terms of bass), not to mention my room was designed with the help of an acoustician, so it is pretty well treated and a great sounding room. So I didn't have everything working against me. I've certainly seen people trying subs with more challenging rooms than mine and while they may have been happy with the results, I probably wouldn't have been.

 

[YSC]

I actually did most of the testing without the velvet on the sub under the screen (and the sub behind my sofa had no velvet). They were JL Audio subs and their crossover, and I checked with JL Audio (who were *very* helpful in answering all sorts of questions) about putting the velvet over the sub. It is actually very thin (almost) acoustically transparent velvet. So transparent many on the AV forums were using it as speaker grill material in the home theater builds. So that's a major reason I chose it. JL Audio assured me that given the type of velvet and especially the low frequencies put out by the sub, the velvet was unlikely to have any sonic consequences. (Vs putting it over a tweeter and those super short wavelengths).

I did not hear a difference when I put the velvet on. FWIW.



While I didn't have total flexibility, there shouldn't be anything particularly disastrous about the placement. JL Audio isn't expecting most people to place their subs right beside their tower speakers. Many people get on fine with the subs placed behind the speakers somewhere, and I managed to get mine to the "smoother" position (1/3 along the front wall) depicted in this subwoofer placement instruction guide:

Room Placement

www.jlaudio.com

Plus my listening sofa is in a good position (works great for my HT system and 2 channel speakers in terms of bass), not to mention my room was designed with the help of an acoustician, so it is pretty well treated and a great sounding room. So I didn't have everything working against me. I've certainly seen people trying subs with more challenging rooms than mine and while they may have been happy with the results, I probably wouldn't have been.

what I mean was most treated room won't be able to treat with the bass frequency boundary reflections, and IMO when placed not flush/right next to a wall it likely will have some sort of extra cancellation from side/back wall and standing wave etc. also putting right behind sofa would obviously need some sort of delay filter to make it properly time with the main speaker sound, I would imagine in common sense, say one sub is within touching distance behind your sofa, and another in the far side of the room, with the same note they are hitting you ended up with 2 arrival of the note unless you really DSP out the time and phase issue, and that would feel odd in perception.

 

[sarumbear]

You are playing "speaker designer."

This!

 

[Chromatischism]

Sort of stumbled upon this thread today and didn't realize that Amir was of the same mind as I am on subwoofers. Even accepting the technical case for using subs, it always
gave me pause that adding subs/crossover essentially takes a fully designed loudspeaker by engineers who (hopefully) know what they are doing and spent years perfecting the coherence, and then saying to the consumer "ok now YOU give a go at being a speaker designer, and have fun integrating an external box of drivers with this carefully constructed loudspeaker."

I've just heard so many poorly done sub systems (to my ears, even though they pleased the owners) and it's no wonder why.

Except that most speakers are not designed to also be subwoofers. Not even the F328be! At 26 Hz it is already -6 dB. This is a high-output speaker designed to be used with subwoofers.

I agree there are many bad setups out there where people didn't take the time to get it right.

 

[MattHooper]

Except that most speakers are not designed to also be subwoofers.

That strikes me as an odd way to put it.

Most speakers are designed to sound good (by the lights of the designer) within the selected frequency range for the design. An LS50, for instance, may be enhanced with a subwoofer, but it's designed to sound good on it's own, like most other speakers.

Yes lots of speakers aren't trying to do subwoofer frequencies, but not everyone wants that, which is why speakers are designed to sound good in of themselves.

Not even the F328be! At 26 Hz it is already -6 dB. This is a high-output speaker designed to be used with subwoofers.

That's pretty darned low (especially if anechoic, so it would also get some room lift in the bass, but in either case, it's still quite deep bass). That's enough for most people
to be quite satisfying. And I'm not sure about "designed to be used with subwoofers." How do you determine that? If you mean you'd like it better with a subwoofer that's one thing, but I'm betting if you ask the manufacturer...subs are optional as the speakers was designed to sound excellent and satisfying as is. Many people don't want more speaker boxes in their room.

I agree there are many bad setups out there where people didn't take the time to get it right.

Some people turn subwoofers in to a second hobby, if not a part time job. My mind boggles at the amount of time many over on sites like the AVSforum spend "getting their subs juuuust right." All of which only underlines the perils and demands of "becoming your own speaker designer" rather than relying on the expertise that went in to
one's speakers as they are.

I'm not getting subwoofer level bass from my floor standers, but holy sh*t am I getting punchy, wicked tight and articulate bass and coherent sound through the whole spectrum. I have little desire to mess that up.

 

[sarumbear]

Except that most speakers are not designed to also be subwoofers. Not even the F328be! At 26 Hz it is already -6 dB. This is a high-output speaker designed to be used with subwoofers.

I respectfully disagree. This is a speaker that is designed not to be used with a subwoofer. Please allow me to explain why.

Normally a speaker's low frequency response behaves like high pass (HP) filter and there is a defined slope of 2nd or 4th order, depending on the type of enclosure, similar to the chart below.

Revel's big speakers, F328be and Salon2 do not behave like that. This is intentional.

As you can see there are two different slopes. The first one is very slow (6dB/octave) and the 2nd one matches the expected 4th order HP filter (24dB/oct). Revel does this to compensate for the room gain. In most rooms the room will amplify the sound around 6dB. When that happens speakers that follow the Harman slope sounds very bass heavy. By reducing the sub bass response they aimed to compensate that.

And, it works.

I have Salon2, which has the similar mechanism, and I have ample response in my room flat down to 20Hz.

 

[RichB]

For music the path is:
Raspberry Pi4 (DietPi) -> Benchmark DAC -> LA4 -> AHB2 -> Salon2s.

For HT:
Digital Source -> RMC-1 -> (AHB2 and LA4 fixed gain -> AHB2) -> Salon2s.
I have two Rythmik E22 dual 12" subwoofers.

So for HT, the subwoofers are used as subwoofers

With every processor I have ever owned, the Pure Direct mode and Direct mode are easily distinguished.
To me, this indicates that with processing engaged, they perform differently.
The ASR measurements for the RMC-1 confirm measurable performance differences.

These measurements are not a complete assessment of product performance.
So, I choose to use a signal path that is least likely to affect the most sensitive areas of human hearing.
It helps that the room happens to sound good and do not have bass issues at my listening position.

- Rich

 

[MarkS]

With every processor I have ever owned, the Pure Direct mode and Direct mode easily distinguished.

Just for maximum clarity: have you confirmed this distinguihability with blind level-matched listening?

 

[RichB]

Just for maximum clarity: have you confirmed this distinguihability with blind level-matched listening?

Not blind.
I have compared the RMC-1 volume controlled with fast switching.
I have selected the cleanest path (confirmed by review measurements) for 2-channel.

- Rich

 

[Chromatischism]

I respectfully disagree. This is a speaker that is designed not to be used with a subwoofer. Please allow me to explain why.

Normally a speaker's low frequency response behaves like high pass (HP) filter and there is a defined slope of 2nd or 4th order, depending on the type of enclosure, similar to the chart below.

Revel's big speakers, F328be and Salon2 do not behave like that. This is intentional.

As you can see there are two different slopes. The first one is very slow (6dB/octave) and the 2nd one matches the expected 4th order HP filter (24dB/oct). Revel does this to compensate for the room gain. In most rooms the room will amplify the sound around 6dB. When that happens speakers that follow the Harman slope sounds very bass heavy. By reducing the sub bass response they aimed to compensate that.

And, it works.

I have Salon2, which has the similar mechanism, and I have ample response in my room flat down to 20Hz.

I was under the impression that most Revel speakers try to strike a balance and usually end up not attempting to play really low, instead getting higher sensitivity than most competitors. Until you get to the Salons.

It also depends on your use case. Yes, in-room I would agree that a -6 dB at 26 Hz speaker will be pretty flat and fine without subs for most general and musical uses. But it's not going to be enough for demanding home theater use, which makes sense because they prioritized balance and sensitivity over really low-end output.

 

[Lsc]

I was under the impression that most Revel speakers try to strike a balance and usually end up not attempting to play really low, instead getting higher sensitivity than most competitors. Until you get to the Salons.

It also depends on your use case. Yes, in-room I would agree that a -6 dB at 26 Hz speaker will be pretty flat and fine without subs for most general and musical uses. But it's not going to be enough for demanding home theater use, which makes sense because they prioritized balance and sensitivity over really low-end output.

Revels are well balanced speakers but most Revel speakers have very good bass. But yes only the salon2 is full range. I’ve owned or own F12, F208 and F228Be prior to my salon2 and all of them have very good bass but just lack that very bottom that the salon2 possess. Before I sold my F228Be, my buddy and I were listening to them with no subs and were amazed at the dynamics and the tight thundering bass coming out of time.

Also, not even the salons are good enough for home theater without subs. A proper home theater needs capable subs. I have 2 subs for movie watching (and music).

 

[sarumbear]

I was under the impression that most Revel speakers try to strike a balance and usually end up not attempting to play really low, instead getting higher sensitivity than most competitors. Until you get to the Salons.

It also depends on your use case. Yes, in-room I would agree that a -6 dB at 26 Hz speaker will be pretty flat and fine without subs for most general and musical uses. But it's not going to be enough for demanding home theater use, which makes sense because they prioritized balance and sensitivity over really low-end output.

Revels are well balanced speakers but most Revel speakers have very good bass. But yes only the salon2 is full range. I’ve owned or own F12, F208 and F228Be prior to my salon2 and all of them have very good bass but just lack that very bottom that the salon2 possess. Before I sold my F228Be, my buddy and I were listening to them with no subs and were amazed at the dynamics and the tight thundering bass coming out of time.

Also, not even the salons are good enough for home theater without subs. A proper home theater needs capable subs. I have 2 subs for movie watching (and music).

I agree that for home theatre you need the sub. You need it for the LFE, which is where all sub information is. Unless you are watching a concert of Saint Saens Organ Symphony, there is not much going on below 30Hz in film soundtracks' LCR channels that are not in the LFE.

BTW, have you auditioned F328Be? It is in a different league to F228Be.