Quality speakers for classical music with high output/volume

[ahofer]

Can you give some reasoning about why Revel?

Revels are optimized around the Toole research that is very well regarded in these parts. My anecdotal experience is that the uniform and relatively wide dispersion of Revels is really helpful in a difficult room and/or out of sweetspot. Others here concur.

They also exhibit low distortion at higher levels (see 96db in the review below). This should help with your dynamic range for orchestral classical.

Revel M106 Bookshelf Speaker Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Revel M106 bookshelf speaker. It was kindly purchased and drop shipped to me. It is not a new sample but came to me with full packaging and protective wrapper. The M106 costs US $1,000 each or $2,000 for a pair. It is only sold through dealer...

www.audiosciencereview.com

I guess I'd emphasize that you can buy electronics based on measurements alone. Not so for speakers, you should audition them as much as possible. The interactions of dispersion and room are thorny enough that measurements are probably insufficient. However, the characteristics favored by Toole are a good starting point, and what I would recommend if you can't audition in your room.

Perhaps this is unnecessary, but I'll offer one other piece of hard-earned advice. When you audition speakers. do it for a while. Sometimes speakers sound great in the first few minutes but become annoying. One cause of this is what I'll call "showroom treble", which I have observed in Paradigm and B&W speakers. The treble is emphasized and it seems revealing - you can hear the bows on the strings, etc. But give it some time compared to a flatter response and I'd bet you end up with the latter.

Beyond what Amir emphasizes here, I'd recommend a Dynamic Range test that Erin's Audio Corner does called "instantaneous compression". Here's one for a smaller speaker with wide dispersion. Note the scale, as this visual would be a lot less dramatic at full scale. But better results here would suggest better performance in high dynamic range recordings. Others here can speak more knowledgeably to this, but I think this is where you might see some of the limitations of smaller speakers.

 

[Chaconne]

I'm going to go a bit rogue here and suggest that you may be overly concerned with specs, numbers and technical details. I can only speak from my own 40+ years of classical-music listening experience and tell you that, in regard to classical music or any reproduction of acoustic instruments in real space, some speakers do it better than others. Problem is, I don't know what measurements or specs determine which speakers are better than others in this respect. I'm trying to become educated in this regard by reading this ASR forum. In my experience, only listening to speakers under consideration can lead to a successful purchase.

I'm troubled by your statement that the speakers will be placed in corners and/or near walls. That is normally the very worst position, unless the speakers are specifically designed for that position. Unless you have very good equalization capabilities, the speakers will be boomy in the bass and lower midrange, obscuring much of what is best in classical music reproduction. You will also have highly compromised imaging—or perhaps none at all—which to me is one of the most satisfying aspects of listening to classical music: the ability to virtually "see" with your ears real musicians occupying real space before you.

I have also found that the quality of the original recording is far more important than any bit rate, etc. The simple fact is that some recording engineers are better than others in getting classical music to sound like real instruments in real space. You say you want to be unable to distinguish a recorded violin or voice from a live one. That's not going to happen, no matter how much money you spend. Certain speakers will get closer than others, and here again, listening to the speakers is the only way to tell which is which—in MY experience.

And speaking of my experience, these speaker companies are among the best I've experienced at recreating classical music: Harbeth, Magnepan, NHT, Graham, Vienna Acoustics, Spendor and Triangle. Of course, I haven't heard everything, and I'm unfamiliar with all the speakers recommended in this thread. And many of these brands are not highly regarded among my ASR friends. All I can say is they sound like classical music to me.

 

[excelsius]

@ahofer I guess I have to do some more reading. With the Revels, I would also have to add an amp, which is an entire headache itself to figure out what to get. I hope to hear some more opinions or scientific reasoning here before I decide on a final system

@Chaconne completely agree, but I don't have a good way to test speakers. I've read about the many pitfalls of testing speakers in the store environment and I don't think it's worth the time to do it given that the environment can make a big difference on the sounds, not to mention volume differences. So absent that, I can either buy randomly, buy based on what some guy recommends in a review, or buy based on available scientific evidence. I chose the latter, even though I understand measurements do not equal me liking the speaker. I will look into a good return policy to exchange the speakers if I really dislike them. Chances are very high that anything is going to sound better than what I have now.

In the end, yes, if it comes down to it, I will place the speakers in a more ideal location as a compromise. Once I decide on something, maybe I'll make a separate thread on the room diagram to see what others think would be the right placement. My main point here is that I want to get a flexible set of speakers so that I don't have to be in this or that position to enjoy great quality music. And understood about recordings. Some of my most favorite recordings are decades old, likely with poor mastering. The speakers aren't going to make up for it. Maybe they could even make it worse, like watching 260p video on a 4K monitor that pops out all the ugly pixels.

 

[Vladimir Filevski]

Can you give some reasoning about why Revel? Based on what I see, Revel M106 would be in my budget. Elsewhere here Neumann KH-150 was recommended, though somewhat more expensive. Specific differences between them? I see Amir recommends it highly, but he also recommends the KH-150 with the different that users here say it has a high output. Is that also the case for the Revel?

Neumann KH-150 can play louder and with lower distortion in the bass range than Revel M106.

 

[Keith_W]

Alright, I understand the general idea and appreciate this different viewpoint you bring. Obviously I still don't know the underlying issues and technology. Maybe I could ask you some direct questions to help narrow things down:

1. How large of a speaker are we talking about? I.e., is there a minimum size I need to consider? I'm not sure how you define an XXL bookshelf
2. Can you recommend some sample (ideally powered) models? I want to see what the price range is and if it still fits my budget
3. Do you think the larger speakers will automatically fit my need to produce higher output? Obviously, a larger speaker will push a larger volume of air, so I'm assuming will be more powerful.
4. What is your thought about the Neumann KH-150 that was recommended here? Have you heard them and gotten a chance to compare to larger speakers? If not, what parameters do you use to compare speakers without hearing them? You recommended a 20Hz to 20Khz range for a speaker, which the KH-150 doesn't have (starts at 39Hz, it seems), but that part I'm assuming can be easily overcome by a sub later.

To be honest, I am out of the hifi shopping game and I do not know what products out there will meet your requirements. Particularly since you said that you are going to actually put them on bookshelves, in the corners, and close to the wall. I bought my "dream system" 15 years ago, and the only things I am researching and buying these days are refinements which come in the form of DSP (digital signal processing), which IMO is the only area in audio where progress and innovation is actually being made. I am still on my learning curve and I am by no means an authority compared to some people on ASR.

As others have mentioned since you posted, placing speakers the way you plan to will mess up the frequency response, create all sorts of bass issues, and destroy the spatial qualities. However, the benefit would be to increase loudness and amplify bass. The traditional audiophile would advise you that if you are going to place speakers like that, then don't bother getting an expensive speaker because you will be losing performance that you have paid for. Having said that, you are on ASR and we should be helping you get the best performance given your requirements.

In general terms, for your use case (i.e. this doesn't apply for others who want to position their speakers differently) I would suggest speakers that can go to 115dB with minimal distortion, have front ports or preferably no ports, and have a wide and smooth radiation pattern. The reasons for these recommendations are:

- 115dB with no distortion: this is classical music we are talking about!
- front ports / no ports: placing ports facing the wall is a bad idea. In extreme cases it can interfere with the tuning of the port.
- wide/smooth radiation pattern: in combination with corner placement, this will give you the most even experience no matter where you are in the room.

There are downsides to this of course. Most notably, you will destroy imaging but then I can not think of any solution in your use case where imaging will be preserved, so you have to decide if imaging is more important, or your domestic situation is more important. Nobody here can decide that for you despite some impassioned pleas I have seen in the replies.

When I think of XXL bookshelves, I am thinking of speakers about 2ft x 1ft x 1ft as a rough guide like the Genelec 8361a. Those can go up to 115dB (i.e. VERY LOUD) with minimal distortion. However, those are way above your budget at $10k a pair. You could also consider the Genelec 8050b's at about USD$2000. These are rear ported however, but they are designed for studio use and should not be too much of a problem if you can position them as far from the walls as you can.

You did not mention what you are using as a source, but if it is computer based I strongly suggest you consider DSP because that can help fix some of the issues you will face. The downside of DSP is that there is a learning curve involved, it doesn't fix all problems, and the fixes might create new problems outside the listening position.

 

[Galliardist]

@ahofer I guess I have to do some more reading. With the Revels, I would also have to add an amp, which is an entire headache itself to figure out what to get. I hope to hear some more opinions or scientific reasoning here before I decide on a final system

@Chaconne completely agree, but I don't have a good way to test speakers. I've read about the many pitfalls of testing speakers in the store environment and I don't think it's worth the time to do it given that the environment can make a big difference on the sounds, not to mention volume differences. So absent that, I can either buy randomly, buy based on what some guy recommends in a review, or buy based on available scientific evidence. I chose the latter, even though I understand measurements do not equal me liking the speaker. I will look into a good return policy to exchange the speakers if I really dislike them. Chances are very high that anything is going to sound better than what I have now.

In the end, yes, if it comes down to it, I will place the speakers in a more ideal location as a compromise. Once I decide on something, maybe I'll make a separate thread on the room diagram to see what others think would be the right placement. My main point here is that I want to get a flexible set of speakers so that I don't have to be in this or that position to enjoy great quality music. And understood about recordings. Some of my most favorite recordings are decades old, likely with poor mastering. The speakers aren't going to make up for it. Maybe they could even make it worse, like watching 260p video on a 4K monitor that pops out all the ugly pixels.

The thing is, you will have a subjective response at the end of the day. So we want the science to help you, because that subjective response is part of the science.

Where to start? Well, you mention the Bluesound Node to act apparently as a DAC to both systems. It's not a good DAC. The Node models continually measure poor here.
I'm going to recommend taking a step further back to start the process for you. Use software with a control app that can switch between endpoints, and a separate endpoint and DAC for each system. Choose from those in the green or blue areas of the SINAD chart if you can, and not from the red. Make sure what you get connects to your preferred streaming application and can retrieve local files over the network, and that you have decent search and control. These steps are, I would say, important. Read the reviews and look for any other issues, as SINAD is not the only thing that determines sound quality, though you basically won't have a difference in sound worth worrying about for the most part.

Next. The room you are putting the speakers you're buying at the moment. You've told us you will be listening from different spots in the room, and I have the impression it is a large room. Is that correct?

You need to do a few basic things to give yourself a chance. Curtains (fairly thick or lined) over large windows. A good thick rug or carpet on the floor to at least help with floor bounce.

Now, the speakers. Putting the speakers into corners is near certain death for sound quality. Close to the front wall, less so, though you will limit your choice of speaker. I would not worry about the speakers being a bit closer together - the smaller image may be an issue, but maybe not. In my own experience a smaller image will hold up better if you are well off axis. The off axis requirement isn't going to lead to the best sound. Don't forget the sweet spot though. It can be closer to the speakers than when you are listening while doing other things: make forty minutes a day or so to sit there and listen more intently, and you get better value for money and at least a bit closer to that dynamic requirement at the time.

I would recommend a three way speaker with a tweeter mounted in a wide front baffle, and either a large standmount or a floorstander, simply because that's what worked for me (I can sit off to one side and still enjoy music, as long as I'm not directly on axis to one speaker and not the other. My speakers are a local Australian brand, so no recommendation). Don't worry about resale value and all that, because if you get the choice right, it will be a while before you move them on, In your price range that is going to mean passive, whether you like it or not. Passive is easier in some ways - you don't have to have power to the speakers, only the speaker cable, for example. And you can allow them to distort a little on peaks (it's short peaks we are worried about here for dynamics) where an active speaker may throw in the towel. Some of this is heresy: but we're more about compromise here to your requirements.

So, I know your reservations, but you really need to listen to some different speakers and setups at this point. A couple of things from "science" here. I'm not going to give you the "people prefer immersive sound" point to follow here, because you aren't going to be in the right place for that a lot of the time from your description. But I will add that if you choose the right speaker in a different environment (a good dealer listening room - yes, that's where I'm going with this) you should be able to adapt to listening to them in your room. In other words, auditioning is the scientific route. You start by auditioning an accurate setup with well measuring everything: if you don't like it, change the speakers: if you audition several speakers and don't like any of them with accurate electronics, you switch to a less accurate amp that starts to sound different, and you start again. You may not be able to do this all only with one dealer of course. But invest a little time and do it.

Eventually you will probably want to add subs - more than one - to even the bass out in the room and improve it across all the places you sit in the room. If one of those off axis listening positions is in a null spot in the room, you'll know all about it.

Buy the amp that made the speakers work for you. That makes the amp thing simple. Read some reviews here to start with to get a feel for what good measured results are. Tell the dealers you want to listen to low distortion amplifiers and ask what they can do in that line, and look them up. If they start going on about tubes, run (you can get low distortion tube amps, but not at most dealers).

If you must, buy the speakers and then come back here for a recommendation. If the combination at the dealer is too expensive, there's probably a cheaper amp option that will work for you out there somewhere.

Audition the peaks loud. In your own room you will (if all goes well) listen at lower levels in practice.

You can go the Neumann type accurate active speaker approach in your office system and get something of both worlds.

 

[ooheadsoo]

I would try to audition a Dennis Murphy design or ascend acoustics, if revels are too pricy. If you're on a budget, you can get a decent aiyima "desktop" amplifier for less than $100 to get started.

 

[Sancus]

There is nothing wrong with placing speakers in corners or near walls as long as you have EQ to correct the bass. And if you're not using EQ and/or room correction well then your bass is going to be screwed up anyway. In fact near wall placement is good because it pushes boundary interference to higher frequencies than are easier to absorb/correct. Which is why Genelec and Neumann both recommend it.

Placement well into the room(>1m) can be good because it brings the speakers closer to the listener, but it does eliminate boundary gain so bass capability is worse. Which is one reason why subwoofers are pretty much always recommended to be placed near walls and in corners.

All of this stuff is room and listening position dependent.

 

[Galliardist]

There is nothing wrong with placing speakers in corners or near walls as long as you have EQ to correct the bass. And if you're not using EQ and/or room correction well then your bass is going to be screwed up anyway. In fact near wall placement is good because it pushes boundary interference to higher frequencies than are easier to absorb/correct. Which is why Genelec and Neumann both recommend it.

Placement well into the room(>1m) can be good because it brings the speakers closer to the listener, but it does eliminate boundary gain so bass capability is worse. Which is one reason why subwoofers are pretty much always recommended to be placed near walls and in corners.

All of this stuff is room and listening position dependent.

There are more considerations than the bass. You can use a loudspeaker designed for a corner but imaging won't be great. You can maybe manage the low bass, but without very narrow dispersion you're guaranteed reflections from right along one of the walls at least. Remember we are talking off axis listening here as well: you may get away a corner placement for listening in a sweet spot. AudioNote UK have some speakers that they like to use with corner boundary gain IIRC, but I wouldn't recommend them personally.

Close to the front wall is fine with a suitably designed speaker.
Worst of all of course is one speaker in the corner and the other not.

Subwoofer and main speaker positioning are two entirely different things.

 

[Sancus]

There are more considerations than the bass. You can use a loudspeaker designed for a corner but imaging won't be great. You can maybe manage the low bass, but without very narrow dispersion you're guaranteed reflections from right along one of the walls at least. Remember we are talking off axis listening here as well: you may get away a corner placement for listening in a sweet spot. AudioNote UK have some speakers that they like to use with corner boundary gain IIRC, but I wouldn't recommend them personally.

Nowhere did I recommend asymmetric placement. You're going to get reflections from the walls regardless of your placement(unless you treat with absorption). They will be slightly reduced in level with the speaker further away, but what this really affects is the boundary interference frequencies more than anything else.

"don't place speakers in corners or near walls" is just flat out bad advice, period. It depends on the room. http://tripp.com.au/sbir.htm or similar calculators can help, but it's always best to just measure placement options yourself.

 

[unpluggged]

Also would prefer bookshelf rather than floor standing speakers.

Well, if you need really high SPL and deep bass reproduction combined with high fidelity, then Neumann KH 420 and Genelec 8361A are not floorstanding speakers, strictly speaking... They are far outside your budget, though

So in your circumstances I'd agree that KH 150 or, perhaps, KH 310 would be the best choice.

As to the hi-res audio scam, I bet that you are unable to hear above 16-17 kHz in the first place. I did conduct an ABX comparison using the same 24/192 source downsampled to 16/44.1 and could not differentiate between them. And we know that many hi-res publishers use different mastering for Red Book and hi-res releases (with less DR compression, for instance) so that people could justify the higher price and convince themselves that hi-res actually makes a difference. This is a pure marketing technique and has nothing to do with technical aspects of digital audio recording and reproduction.

 

[ldarieut]

90db at 4 meters sounds loud enough to me!

 

[Newman]

I am building my first system where I am going to stream music from my computer to a streamer (likely Bluesound Node) and connect it to the speakers both in my office and in another room.

One of my first dilemmas is getting high quality speakers that can reproduce 24/192 sound (or at least 24/96) with high fidelity, mostly classical music, including vocals, but also be capable of high volume output (current room size is 13.5 x 20.5 ft). I have been considering KEF LS50 II, but according to a review linked on this forum, that speaker might not have a high output. Review says it's 90dB max at 13ft (4m).

My question is what speakers can I get that produce both accurate sound and also have high output? I'd prefer active speakers, but can consider passive with an amp (don't have an amp currently). The budget is under $3000, but can go a bit higher if it will make a big difference. Also would prefer bookshelf rather than floor standing speakers.

I hope by now, reading replies, you are starting to realise a few difficulties with your OP, such as:-

1. Better than 16/44 capability is for all practical purposes irrelevant to your quest. Some people still haven’t given up hoping to prove the faintest ability to tell which is which of CD vs high res format, but even if they did, it would be a long way from proving that one is preferred instead of just detectably different, and even longer way from proving that music recordings are actually sounding better or more natural when res is higher than CD. Just give up on that idea and move on to more practical factors.
2. You say you want bookshelves without (for the time being) subs, but you want high SPL capability. This is not going to happen, because in practice most of the SPL power in music is in the bass region, where bookshelf speakers (of the sort you mean, not the rare giant-box-on-a-short-stand variety) simply cannot deliver due to the physics of moving large volumes of air at low frequencies. Somethings gotta give. You decide what: bookshelves without high output, floorstanders, or bookshelves with subs.
3. The real reason you want “high output” is to cleanly deliver peaks in dynamic classical recordings (that you were ascribing to high res recordings but 16/44 also has for all practical purposes), and not because you want a nightclub experience. Your room size is similar to mine so I am here to tell you that you might not need the “Phenomenal Cosmic Powers, Itty Bitty Living Space” that I’m rightly or wrongly reading into your OP. I’m betting that you would be astonished by what your $3000 can get from, say, a pair of Genelec 8030C and a pair of SVS SB-1000 Pro or SB-2000 Pro subs, plus the tools to measure and EQ through the bass (due to room modes) and the low mids (due to your corner placement). Maybe get one sub first while you will be home-hopping.

cheers

 

[ZolaIII]

I did recommend complete system with better chain (more power and cleaner) for those 3K but no one listens.

 

[Galliardist]

I did recommend complete system with better chain (more power and cleaner) for those 3K but no one listens.

Looking back, I think your recommendation has a lot going for it in terms of output. And I suspect that two subs will do much better where @excelsius will be doing his listening in different parts of the room. It's for him to listen to the different options and choose, of course.

You don't come to ASR and not get recommended Genelec and Neumann, and there is good reason for that, even if I'm uncertain about that recommendation in this particular case.

 

[Deleted member 48726]

Hi OP

Buy a pair of Infinity Kappa 7, 8 or 9's and a second hand Yamaha amp. with at least 250 W @ 8 ohm and a miniDSP at your choice. You'll get what you need and more for under 2.500 USD.

 

[ZolaIII]

Looking back, I think your recommendation has a lot going for it in terms of output. And I suspect that two subs will do much better where @excelsius will be doing his listening in different parts of the room. It's for him to listen to the different options and choose, of course.

You don't come to ASR and not get recommended Genelec and Neumann, and there is good reason for that, even if I'm uncertain about that recommendation in this particular case.

Not only that speakers that I recommended are not expensive but have nice wide horizontal dispersion and when cut (high pass filter) about 100 Hz resonance will be gone on ear beading level of which they are capable of.
They don't score best but don't have bigger issues either, but with EQ and sub's they score all right.

Measurements for speaker Elac Debut Reference DBR-62

www.spinorama.org

Larger Neumann's and Genelac's do score better but that's mainly because they have embedded and in use DSP already doing EQ-ing and they don't improve much from a separate DSP processor (nor have where to). In combination with state of art amplifier regarding SINAD and with a lot of power and very good DSP with good four chanel DAC (best from such we know of so far at least) that are both better of what ever is put in even very expensive studio monitors and certainly delivers more power it's a win/win. Besides he would need to use such separate DSP anyway with sub's and balanced only inputs on Neumann/Genelac's would complicate thing's (either he would need to go with sub's with balanced inputs which isn't usual or for SHD instead of Flex which is pricy). Plus he can continue to use his
Bluesound Node as a transport trough optical connection. I discarded even SVS 1000 Pro series all do they are better I think two non Pro SB will get him where he nead's to be at 35~50% less money.
I call that logic and sure it's simpler to say buy those expensive active speakers because they score little better not really thinking about anything.

 

[antcollinet]

I hope by now, reading replies, you are starting to realise a few difficulties with your OP, such as:-

1. Better than 16/44 capability is for all practical purposes irrelevant to your quest. Some people still haven’t given up hoping to prove the faintest ability to tell which is which of CD vs high res format, but even if they did, it would be a long way from proving that one is preferred instead of just detectably different, and even longer way from proving that music recordings are actually sounding better or more natural when res is higher than CD. Just give up on that idea and move on to more practical factors.
2. You say you want bookshelves without (for the time being) subs, but you want high SPL capability. This is not going to happen, because in practice most of the SPL power in music is in the bass region, where bookshelf speakers (of the sort you mean, not the rare giant-box-on-a-short-stand variety) simply cannot deliver due to the physics of moving large volumes of air at low frequencies. Somethings gotta give. You decide what: bookshelves without high output, floorstanders, or bookshelves with subs.
3. The real reason you want “high output” is to cleanly deliver peaks in dynamic classical recordings (that you were ascribing to high res recordings but 16/44 also has for all practical purposes), and not because you want a nightclub experience. Your room size is similar to mine so I am here to tell you that you might not need the “Phenomenal Cosmic Powers, Itty Bitty Living Space” that I’m rightly or wrongly reading into your OP. I’m betting that you would be astonished by what your $3000 can get from, say, a pair of Genelec 8030C and a pair of SVS SB-1000 Pro or SB-2000 Pro subs, plus the tools to measure and EQ through the bass (due to room modes) and the low mids (due to your corner placement). Maybe get one sub first while you will be home-hopping.

cheers

Best post I've read in this thread so far.

 

[dasdoing]

Genelec S360 Review (Studio Monitor)

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Genelec S360 (S360A) studio monitor. It was sent to me by the company and costs US $3995 each. It comes in both white and black. As you can see, it is quite a departure from other Genelec speakers with rectangular shape and non-coaxial drivers...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Digby]

Bring back corner horns.