Quality speakers for classical music with high output/volume

[Sokel]

Also,the number I would rely on is this:

(taken from their site,note that this is short term at 2.3 meters)
I didn't find peak power but you definetly need more than that even if you adjust your seat at this distance.

 

[excelsius]

Maybe it would help to know if you are listening to full symphony works or something more sedate, like baroque.

I listen to everything, baroque, classical, romantic. My side project is basically going through every single work of a composer and curating the list of works I like. That has been a very slow task due to the prolific output of many composers, plus many many different performances of the same piece. Some of the composers I've finished for now range through Bach, Schubert, Glass.

If I had to pick one, I'd say solo piano works are the most critical. Followed by other solo instrumental works (violin, flute, organ, guitar) and followed by more intimate compositions involving fewer instruments: duos, trios, quartets, quintets, etc. While I love piano concertos and symphonies, I'd say the more intimate works take more precedence. Assuming we really have to divide it up like this to get a matching speaker.

 

[mj30250]

@mj30250 I am in the US. Wow, it's listed there for $1,333. Are we talking about thomannmusic.com? Is it legit?

Yes and yes, they are an authorized dealer.

 

[fubarnow]

I don't usually recommend speakers here but here are some
smaller speakers that maybe you should not overlook
even though they have not been tested by Amir.

Category: Monitors

tektondesign.com

 

[excelsius]

I have searched the subject for years,I even came up with a number as what it takes to fill a room with nice classical music (that's my gender too) and it's about 300-500$ per m³ all included and the variation has to do with aesthetics,headroom,etc.

No ordinary bookself will give you what you want at 4 meters,it won't even at 3 meters.You need physical size or very clever DSP to deal with it.

At the end it's about compromises but the one thing you need to obtain and secure is nice wide soundstage without holes and an even (as much as the room permits) response down to 30Hz.

I hate to disappoint you but you either have to look at the used market or up your budget.

Many years ago, when I was till a poor student, I thought spending about $300-$400 was really high end stuff. I was told otherwise, so was disappointed and had to make do with what I had. Now this time around, I thought ok, I am setting up a really high budget (that's 10x more essentially), so it's a bit funny to learn again that I'm still too low in the budget! Given that different people have different perceptions about things, I think my safest bet is just to go with the best I can do with the set budget. Because I know that in this industry, one can always go higher and higher. During my research, a youtube video popped up for a million dollar audio system. Yes, a million. Imagine how many performances that would cover in the very front row. Would even cover paying musicians to come to your house to play for you.

I also read about people taking second mortgages to buy audio. For me, I just want to do the best I can with the given budget and move on to the actual part of enjoying the music. I've already been doing that with low quality speakers for quite a few years, so I'm certain that even a $300 speaker will sound above and beyond my small computer speakers.

Plus, I can be prone to analysis paralysis. This is probably true of most audiophiles since even the simplest system requires quite a bit of thought and planning.

 

[Keith_W]

I listen to everything, baroque, classical, romantic. My side project is basically going through every single work of a composer and curating the list of works I like. That has been a very slow task due to the prolific output of many composers, plus many many different performances of the same piece. Some of the composers I've finished for now range through Bach, Schubert, Glass.

If I had to pick one, I'd say solo piano works are the most critical. Followed by other solo instrumental works (violin, flute, organ, guitar) and followed by more intimate compositions involving fewer instruments: duos, trios, quartets, quintets, etc. While I love piano concertos and symphonies, I'd say the more intimate works take more precedence. Assuming we really have to divide it up like this to get a matching speaker.

You don't. All it means is that you can get away with a cheaper speaker or a speaker with flaws baked into the design, if you happen to like music which is easily reproduced. The audiophile classic are female vocals, which is a bit of a cliche. Nothing could be simpler, it's all midrange, and that's it. If all you listened to was female vocals, then you could get away with a flawed speaker with no bottom or top end and it would still sound good. However, as I have said in a few posts now, as a classical listener we should aim for the best reproduction possible because our music is quite demanding. I myself listen to anything from Bach to Wagner to Schubert Lieder. About 1/5 of my collection consist of historic recordings made in the 30's and 40's and you certainly don't need a good system to play those back. In fact, those recordings actually sound better on low end speakers because the last thing you want is all that baked-in distortion in the recording to be faithfully reproduced for you. But I digress!

For classical, I suggest a full range speaker which can reproduce everything from 20Hz - 20kHz. You do NOT want a speaker which will compress at high volumes because it will make fortissimos sound congested and you will lose clarity. Nearly all bookshelf speakers except for XXL ones will compress at high volumes. For me, spatial qualities such as imaging are not so important (but it may be for you). If your aim is to reproduce the scale of a symphonic work or a large piano at home, then you should consider a larger speaker. You can still make it work with smaller speakers, but as I said before - you have to sit closer to them.

(Edit) since you mentioned that million dollar system, I am guessing you watched that video on Acapella Spharons. I have heard a couple of million dollar systems, and I can tell you that those are well beyond the point of diminishing returns. You can get a very decent system for $3000.

 

[ahofer]

my understanding was that usually a sampling rate of 96kHz can be detected by human ears (not the frequency itself of course, but based on how the waves are quantized).

No, few people can detect above the highest mp3 resolution and even fewer above redbook (16/44). Archimago has a bunch of tests you can take, if you want convincing for yourself.

MUSINGS / MEASUREMENTS: On why 24/96 sampling of the Blind Test of 16/44.1 devices is good enough. [On idealized filtering tests and "real life" music playback.]

A blog for audiophiles about more objective topics. Measurements of audio gear. Reasonable, realistic, no snakeoil assessment of sound, and equipment.

archimago.blogspot.com

 

[ahofer]

Incidentally, I listen to classical music in two large rooms. I use Harbeth SHL5 and Revel F228Be (bought used) and get completely lost in the music in both places. The revels sound great in different spots around the (highly reflective and acoustically difficult) room. The Harbeths are best in the sweet spot, even in a more absorptive and symmetrical room. I use a cheap hypex-based amp (252) and a second hand NAD 298 to power them.

 

[sejarzo]

Incidentally, I listen to classical music in two large rooms. I use Harbeth SHL5 and Revel F228Be (bought used) and get completely lost in the music in both places. The revels sound great in different spots around the (highly reflective and acoustically difficult) room. The Harbeths are best in the sweet spot, even in a more absorptive and symmetrical room. I use a cheap hypex-based amp (252) and a second hand NAD 298 to power them.

Thanks for noting those very important considerations, given that the OP notes that he isn't going to sit in a sweet spot and has some fairly strict requirements regarding speaker position, which are not likely to be optimal.

The reality is that predicting accurate tonality for a set of bookshelf speakers at various locations in an untreated space is a crapshoot. Anyone who's used REW and a cheap USB measurement mic has proven this to themselves in a matter of minutes.

 

[sejarzo]

Loudness: I need to explain the use case more. Certain classical pieces have a wide dynamic range. For example, Sibelius’s Valse Triste by Karajan or Gould’s 1981 Goldberg Variations album. At least in my setups, I have found that if I don’t crank up the volume, I can’t properly hear the quieter parts of the performance. As a result, when the louder music segment (or track) comes along, the volume becomes even louder, sometimes unnecessarily so. Now maybe with a high quality system I won’t have this problem and don’t necessarily need a very high output speaker? I don’t know. However, I did have Alesis M1 Active MKII speakers connected to my computer though M-Audio Fast Track Pro years ago and I know that I did not like the performance and had issues with lack of volume. That’s the closest I have come to HiFi audio.

Again, it helps to have some accurate measurement of just what "wide" means with respect to dynamic range in real world recordings versus live performance.

What Is Dynamic Range, and Why Does it Matter? - Yamaha Music

Learn more about one of the essential ingredients of both music and audio gear.

hub.yamaha.com

From the study noted in the second paragraph:

 

[excelsius]

You don't. All it means is that you can get away with a cheaper speaker or a speaker with flaws baked into the design, if you happen to like music which is easily reproduced. The audiophile classic are female vocals, which is a bit of a cliche. Nothing could be simpler, it's all midrange, and that's it. If all you listened to was female vocals, then you could get away with a flawed speaker with no bottom or top end and it would still sound good. However, as I have said in a few posts now, as a classical listener we should aim for the best reproduction possible because our music is quite demanding. I myself listen to anything from Bach to Wagner to Schubert Lieder. About 1/5 of my collection consist of historic recordings made in the 30's and 40's and you certainly don't need a good system to play those back. In fact, those recordings actually sound better on low end speakers because the last thing you want is all that baked-in distortion in the recording to be faithfully reproduced for you. But I digress!

For classical, I suggest a full range speaker which can reproduce everything from 20Hz - 20kHz. You do NOT want a speaker which will compress at high volumes because it will make fortissimos sound congested and you will lose clarity. Nearly all bookshelf speakers except for XXL ones will compress at high volumes. For me, spatial qualities such as imaging are not so important (but it may be for you). If your aim is to reproduce the scale of a symphonic work or a large piano at home, then you should consider a larger speaker. You can still make it work with smaller speakers, but as I said before - you have to sit closer to them.

(Edit) since you mentioned that million dollar system, I am guessing you watched that video on Acapella Spharons. I have heard a couple of million dollar systems, and I can tell you that those are well beyond the point of diminishing returns. You can get a very decent system for $3000.

Alright, I understand the general idea and appreciate this different viewpoint you bring. Obviously I still don't know the underlying issues and technology. Maybe I could ask you some direct questions to help narrow things down:

1. How large of a speaker are we talking about? I.e., is there a minimum size I need to consider? I'm not sure how you define an XXL bookshelf
2. Can you recommend some sample (ideally powered) models? I want to see what the price range is and if it still fits my budget
3. Do you think the larger speakers will automatically fit my need to produce higher output? Obviously, a larger speaker will push a larger volume of air, so I'm assuming will be more powerful.
4. What is your thought about the Neumann KH-150 that was recommended here? Have you heard them and gotten a chance to compare to larger speakers? If not, what parameters do you use to compare speakers without hearing them? You recommended a 20Hz to 20Khz range for a speaker, which the KH-150 doesn't have (starts at 39Hz, it seems), but that part I'm assuming can be easily overcome by a sub later.

 

[excelsius]

Incidentally, I listen to classical music in two large rooms. I use Harbeth SHL5 and Revel F228Be (bought used) and get completely lost in the music in both places. The revels sound great in different spots around the (highly reflective and acoustically difficult) room. The Harbeths are best in the sweet spot, even in a more absorptive and symmetrical room. I use a cheap hypex-based amp (252) and a second hand NAD 298 to power them.

Those are over $10K for a pair + a necessary amp, from what I saw. Isn't good off-axis performance also possible with bookshelf speakers? I thought I read some reviews about that, such as the Elac Unifi Reference having good off-axis performance. Not sure about the KH-150 though. Let me know if there is a measure I can look at to judge that performance. I think this is also referred to as "wide dispersion" maybe.

 

[excelsius]

Again, it helps to have some accurate measurement of just what "wide" means with respect to dynamic range in real world recordings versus live performance.

What Is Dynamic Range, and Why Does it Matter? - Yamaha Music

Learn more about one of the essential ingredients of both music and audio gear.

hub.yamaha.com

View attachment 272888

From the study noted in the second paragraph:

View attachment 272889

Ok, did a measurement with my cell using Sibelius's piece I had posted. The background noise in my office is about 54 dB with HVAC going (42 dB when HVAC is off). The lowest level that music produces is below background background (under 48 dB), but usually at around 56 dB, with most of the music hovering above 62dB and peaking at 80 dB. I would consider this piece to be one of the largest dynamic ranges. Usually the baroque music is more consistent in the level. Wagner is another one that has extreme ranges of dynamic range, such as the Prelude to Tristan and Isolde by Karajan. That's what I'd like the speakers to be able to handle, ideally. Otherwise, I'm having to crank the volume up and down.

Maybe to sum it up, for this one piece, the range seems to be about 48 dB to 80 dB in a quiet room (HVAC off). That's a range of 22dB, or ~100 times louder compared to the lowest notes, based on how dB works.

 

[sejarzo]

I thought I read some reviews about that, such as the Elac Unifi Reference having good off-axis performance.

Remember that what you see in graphs of off-axis performance are estimated results in an idealized anechoic space...and thus are not at all what you would hear in an untreated living space, much less a typical office.

 

[Ellebob]

With less than optimal placement I would definitely look for speakers with EQ. Genelec, Neumann and iLoud come to mind. Add a sub later. At least get monitors with the various dip switches to help correct for speaker placement.

 

[excelsius]

Yes and yes, they are an authorized dealer.

Thank you so much for that recommendation. I guess Google algorithms suck these days because even used ones were coming up at $3K. I don't understand why this store didn't come up in my searches for the speaker.

Are there any other high end audio sites I should be aware of that have good deals like this? Almost seems like I have to manually search each site instead of relying on a search engine.

 

[jhwalker]

Ok, did a measurement with my cell using Sibelius's piece I had posted. The background noise in my office is about 54 dB with HVAC going (42 dB when HVAC is off). The lowest level that music produces is below background background (under 48 dB), but usually at around 56 dB, with most of the music hovering above 62dB and peaking at 80 dB. I would consider this piece to be one of the largest dynamic ranges. Usually the baroque music is more consistent in the level. Wagner is another one that has extreme ranges of dynamic range, such as the Prelude to Tristan and Isolde by Karajan. That's what I'd like the speakers to be able to handle, ideally. Otherwise, I'm having to crank the volume up and down.

Maybe to sum it up, for this one piece, the range seems to be about 48 dB to 80 dB in a quiet room (HVAC off). That's a range of 22dB, or ~100 times louder compared to the lowest notes, based on how dB works.

Interesting - I hadn't made much of a study of it, but took a look with the DecibelX iPhone app today.

Baseline in my room is around 30dB (35 with the dishwasher running in the next room LOL). Listening to Mahler's Symphony No. 5 in 24/96 5.1, average listening level is about 70dB with peaks to 90dB! Didn't realize I was listening that loud

FYI, speakers are Revel F208s (floorstanders, so don't really meet your criteria), but I certainly recommend them for classical music.

 

[ahofer]

Those are over $10K for a pair + a necessary amp, from what I saw. Isn't good off-axis performance also possible with bookshelf speakers? I thought I read some reviews about that, such as the Elac Unifi Reference having good off-axis performance. Not sure about the KH-150 though. Let me know if there is a measure I can look at to judge that performance. I think this is also referred to as "wide dispersion" maybe.

Try the smaller Revels.

 

[ahofer]

Interesting - I hadn't made much of a study of it, but took a look with the DecibelX iPhone app today.

Baseline in my room is around 30dB (35 with the dishwasher running in the next room LOL). Listening to Mahler's Symphony No. 5 in 24/96 5.1, average listening level is about 70dB with peaks to 90dB! Didn't realize I was listening that loud

FYI, speakers are Revel F208s (floorstanders, so don't really meet your criteria), but I certainly recommend them for classical music.

The remaining production of the f208 which is VERY similar to my f228Be, can now be had for $5k/pair

Your listening level is pretty close to mine, although I'd only seen transient peaks in the mid 80s. Try in the car some time. High dynamic range recordings are a big problem (and were even in my very quiet Lexus years ago).

 

[excelsius]

Try the smaller Revels.

Can you give some reasoning about why Revel? Based on what I see, Revel M106 would be in my budget. Elsewhere here Neumann KH-150 was recommended, though somewhat more expensive. Specific differences between them? I see Amir recommends it highly, but he also recommends the KH-150 with the different that users here say it has a high output. Is that also the case for the Revel?