Quality speakers for classical music with high output/volume

[ZolaIII]

Two ways is no go for classical orchestra. You do not want a hole in midrange or wild phase swings. And you are right - if you use room resonances, you can have higher bass level, but this will be "one note" bass.

No I elegantly deal with them (room resonances) by producing less resonances in first place (closed enclosure), as much as possible of course. Better three way speakers have midrange drivers physically decoupled in their own physical closed enclosure. Closed enclosure generally improve mid range in any design and after all two way + sub is a three way but not crossed to fully decouple midrange (250~350 Hz).
An example:

HEDD Type 20 MK2 Monitor Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the HEDD Audio Type 20 MK2 DSP studio monitor (active speaker). It was sent to me by the company and costs US $2,399 (each): As you see, this is a ported 3-way design using an AMT tweeter. You also get the option to close the port using an extremely...

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And he rarely gets ecstatic like that.
Of course closed enclosure increases cabinet resonance and THD per SPL, but I am not in a persuit of realism of space shuttle take of or close to stage rock concert SPL.

 

[Avp1]

Better three way speakers have midrange drivers physically decoupled in their own physical closed enclosure.

This is what B&W did since begining of their time in 800/801/802 models. And they were always good for classical music playback.

As to AMT tweeters - I am not convinced, since I first heard them in Adam speakers two decades ago.

 

[ZolaIII]

This is what B&W did since begining of their time in 800/801/802 models. And they were always good for classical music playback.

As to AMT tweeters - I am not convinced, since I first heard them in Adam speakers two decades ago.

Well you have very expensive berilium tweeters (Focal's and such) that go very wide horizontal up to 10 KHz and then again you have really good full range drivers (as Foster FE large one's) that do the same thing which you accompaniment with super twitters.
At the end it's what you use and how far you get.

 

[Triliza]

If you can't decide, get the Neumann and if they don't meet your needs, move them to your office. You'll have a very good desktop setup at least. If this happens, with what's left from the initial budget you can get something like the Elac DBR62 /Kef R3 / Linton 85th / Revel / Focal and a Hypex nc252mp (or such) and enjoy what you've got. A subwoofer will ease the load in any speaker, so that may be something you need to consider at some point.

I think your (and everyone else's) bigger challenge to tackle will be proper placement / room interaction regardless of what you get, so you may need to address that with something like miniDSP/Dirac or by learning to do your own measurements with a UMIK/REW and apply any needed EQ with something like raspberry pi/camilladsp or whatever solution can be had cheaply. There is also room treatment, but that's easier said that done in most cases.

This is a journey after all and as you go you'll understand better your needs and what is to be done. At least here at ASR we have some compass to guide us and we are not walking in the dark so to speak. Start simple and you may find that you'll be pleased with whatever you decide to get.

 

[ooheadsoo]

I would try to audition a Dennis Murphy design or ascend acoustics, if revels are too pricy. If you're on a budget, you can get a decent aiyima "desktop" amplifier for less than $100 to get started.

I should add that the reason I'm recommending these speakers is due to imaging. In most indoor concert spaces, what you hear in a live performance is extremely diffuse. There is no specificity to the imaging, just wide swathes of sound. You'll get that from a speaker with extremely wide dispersion. Your genelecs and Neumanns are rather narrower in that regard.

Someone mentioned guitar - yes if your want to hear a recording of a guitar close up, it won't be as crisp, but in a concert hall, you won't hear that kind of detail. In fact generally, I don't think you would hear that hyper detail unless you were the player.

 

[fineMen]

I am building my first system ...

In regard to streaming and bit-depth / sampling frequency everything's said. Now, unexpectedly, you get a plethora of recommendations right from the local 'high end' department. AMT, beryllium what have you.

At best you are going to enjoy the => music as the focus on the 'system' doesn't hold for long. It blurs with habituation, and either you spend another month's full income, and again, or remember what it was meant for.

In general and top most it has to be clear that no recording could ever reproduce the acoustical impression of a concert, let alone simulating the being-there thing. Logically it is not intended to do so.

A speaker is to follow the sound engineers intentions, as to reproduce the second hand experience correctly, according to the abstractions, the sound engineer has chosen from his portfolio. Bare with me, there is no speaker for 'classic'. You may dismiss the bass muscle by some margin, but that was it.

ps: reiterated, this doesn't have to become an endless journey ...

 

[Avp1]

ps: reiterated, this doesn't have to become an endless journey ...

You can get it in one go and be happy for the next five years. But this won't be on a budget that was mentioned by author of the question. The proper question would be "how much should I spend on building good system to play classical music in 20x14 room?". Using other people experience will allow to shortcut the path by avoiding purchase of unsatisfactory components.

 

[sejarzo]

I think some perspective is needed here.

The OP has stated that he's been listening for years on nothing better than basic computer speakers. To date, I have seen nothing to indicate he's ever heard a $750-1000 pair of speakers driven by an adequate amplifier AND reasonably placed.

Consider what Amir, obviously a trained and knowledgeable listener, stated when he auditioned the ELAC DBR62:

A lot of what I am reading here strikes me as the equivalent of telling someone who's been drinking Three Buck Chuck that he's not going to be happy until he starts drinking nothing less than 98 point wines that cost at least $200 a bottle, or that a Corolla driver who is thinking about moving up to a BMW that he needs at least an M3, and probably an M5...don't even bother to drive a 325 base.

 

[Avp1]

I think some perspective is needed here.

The OP has stated that he's been listening for years on nothing better than basic computer speakers. To date, I have seen nothing to indicate he's ever heard a $750-1000 pair of speakers driven by an adequate amplifier AND reasonably placed.

Consider what Amir, obviously a trained and knowledgeable listener, stated when he auditioned the ELAC DBR62:

View attachment 273183

A lot of what I am reading here strikes me as the equivalent of telling someone who's been drinking Three Buck Chuck that he's not going to be happy until he starts drinking nothing less than 98 point wines that cost at least $200 a bottle, or that a Corolla driver who is thinking about moving up to a BMW that he needs at least an M3, and probably an M5...don't even bother to drive a 325 base.

If someone looks at BMW, that should M model, unless he/she only gets it for show. There is nothing base 325 can do better than Camry, which is a logical step up from Corolla for someone who is not in cars hobby.

 

[fineMen]

You can get it in one go and be happy for the next five years. But this won't be on a budget that was mentioned ...

I was close to regret my disregard of specific tweeter recommendations, because it wasn't particularly friendly. But really, you don't accept that somebody could be perfectly satisfied with a personal 3k$ stereo? O/k, that was only for the speakers. The o/p may get some advice elsewhere.

 

[sejarzo]

If someone looks at BMW, that should M model, unless he/she only gets it for show. There is nothing base 325 can do better than Camry, which is a logical step up from Corolla for someone who is not in cars hobby.

It's an example, for crying out loud. Excuse me while I find a wall to beat my head against.

The OP isn't really "in the hobby" yet if he hasn't used reasonably good speakers, reasonably placed, to understand the limits of real speakers in less-than-ideal placement, which if you read his requirements, is something he needs at the moment.

 

[Vladimir Filevski]

Biased and wrong proposition resulting in 6.9 preference score - 7.1 equed that cannot possibly match output of 150W more on amplifier per chenel with DBR62 not doing bottom 100 Hz and two 300W sub's which would in perspective score 7.8 and 8.2 equed while having 15~20° better horizontal directivity and same vertical one (±30°), came with much better performing mains amplifier and much better DSP for the same price.
That's 900W RMS more resulting in at least 6 dB more SPL and one bottom octave more with better reproduction for instruments such as pipe organ, harp or contrabass. For same amount of money quite a difference.

And how you will force the Elac DBR-62 to not do the bottom 100Hz? You need an active crossover with high-pass at 100Hz.

I never look at the "preference score", other measurements are much more relevant.
You completely forgot the distortion at higher SPL:
Neuman KH 150 at 86dB and 96dB:

Elac DBR-62 at 86dB:

Elac DBR-62 has higher distortion at SPL=86dB than Neumann KH 150. And it ain't be better at higher SPL, on the contrary. Obviously, Neumann KH 150 has better drivers and can reach higher SPL without distortion.
See the Neumann KH 150 measurements here:
https://www.soundandrecording.de/equipment/neumann-kh-150-2-wege-nearfield-monitor-im-test/
SPL=103dB at 100Hz, SPL=110dB at 800Hz and SPL=115dB at 2kHz with no more than THD=3%. Elac DBR62 can only dream about that low distortion at such high SPL.

Factory recommended maximum amplifier power for Elac DBR-32 is 120W. (https://www.elac.com/category/bookshelf-speakers/debut-reference-dbr-62/)
Neumann KH 150 has two integral amplifiers: 145W for the midbass and 100 W for the tweeter.
No contest here.

Elac DBR-62 is an excellent loudspeaker for the asking price and I can recommend it to the OP for his office.

Elac DBR-62 may be more than enough for the OP (even without subwoofer), but because his budget for the speakers is about $3000, than - why not Neumann KH 150?

 

[sejarzo]

Elac DBR-62 may be more than enough for the OP (even without subwoofer), but because his budget for the speakers is about $3000, than - why not Neumann KH 150?

Because he's never heard a speaker like that to know that he really can appreciate it yet, and he needs to put it hard against the wall in corners where the bass response of any speaker will be pretty well goofed up. You don't seen pros with Neumanns putting them in corners, do you?

 

[Triliza]

I checked thoman and the price is 1500, forgot it's per unit, so op will spend all of his budget on them, no more left for plan b. I don't know, tough choice op. Whatever you do, stick to a realistic budget, taking into account other expenses like stands, cables and such, and among the possible choices get whatever gives you the most positive expectations, for whatever reasons that may be.

 

[Galliardist]

I should add that the reason I'm recommending these speakers is due to imaging. In most indoor concert spaces, what you hear in a live performance is extremely diffuse. There is no specificity to the imaging, just wide swathes of sound. You'll get that from a speaker with extremely wide dispersion. Your genelecs and Neumanns are rather narrower in that regard.

Someone mentioned guitar - yes if your want to hear a recording of a guitar close up, it won't be as crisp, but in a concert hall, you won't hear that kind of detail. In fact generally, I don't think you would hear that hyper detail unless you were the player.

The best place to hear a classical guitar is in a smaller venue. Many classical players will have amplification in larger halls (it gets called reinforcement, words...) so you actually do hear that detail these days.
And the player hears less and different sound to the audience. Some modern guitars have holes cut into the top to allow the player to hear more of what they are playing, in fact.

 

[ZolaIII]

And how you will force the Elac DBR-62 to not do the bottom 100Hz? You need an active crossover with high-pass at 100Hz.

I never look at the "preference score", other measurements are much more relevant.
You completely forgot the distortion at higher SPL:
Neuman KH 150 at 86dB and 96dB:

Elac DBR-62 at 86dB:

Elac DBR-62 has higher distortion at SPL=86dB than Neumann KH 150. And it ain't be better at higher SPL, on the contrary. Obviously, Neumann KH 150 has better drivers and can reach higher SPL without distortion.
See the Neumann KH 150 measurements here:
https://www.soundandrecording.de/equipment/neumann-kh-150-2-wege-nearfield-monitor-im-test/
SPL=103dB at 100Hz, SPL=110dB at 800Hz and SPL=115dB at 2kHz with no more than THD=3%. Elac DBR62 can only dream about that low distortion at such high SPL.

Factory recommended maximum amplifier power for Elac DBR-32 is 120W. (https://www.elac.com/category/bookshelf-speakers/debut-reference-dbr-62/)
Neumann KH 150 has two integral amplifiers: 145W for the midbass and 100 W for the tweeter.
No contest here.

Elac DBR-62 is an excellent loudspeaker for the asking price and I can recommend it to the OP for his office.

Elac DBR-62 may be more than enough for the OP (even without subwoofer), but because his budget for the speakers is about $3000, than - why not Neumann KH 150?

Hopefully this clears confusion.

Elac Debut Reference DBR-62 Speaker Review

I apologize if the post came across as too negative. It's a personal preference. I just like black. If I can't have shiny piano black even the matte black on my Rythmik subs works. Colour is a preference. I personally would have loved all white. But oak also works for me since I have...

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Those DBR62 THD plots are after all at 96 dB. If you read back regarding my proposition it's all includeded (UMIK-1, MiniDSP Flex, Hypex NCx500 amplifier with buffer, 2x SVS SB 1000 sub's) and he still keeps change from 3K $ budget to get cables and for peanuts.
Just that you don't bother me again from where did I get preference numbers:

Measurements for speaker Elac Debut Reference DBR-62

www.spinorama.org

Measurements for speaker Neumann KH 150

www.spinorama.org

If you think 1KW of power difference doesn't make difference go visit a doctor.

 

[Vladimir Filevski]

Because he's never heard a speaker like that to know that he really can appreciate it yet, and he needs to put it hard against the wall in corners where the bass response of any speaker will be pretty well goofed up. You don't seen pros with Neumanns putting them in corners, do you?

In the end, yes, if it comes down to it, I will place the speakers in a more ideal location as a compromise.

 

[sejarzo]

Those DBR62 THD plots are after all at 96 dB.

Thanks for finding that, because I tried to make that point to another member else who claimed I was wrong in stating that all THD plots presented by Amir around those dates were not at 86 DB SPL as he insisted was the case (even though the plot isn't labeled with any SPL.)

 

[antcollinet]

So I'm confused.

I'm listening to music right now on an £800 pair of DIRAC EQd Dali Oberon 5's

To me they sound pretty wonderful. Now it is not classical music. I seem to be reading here that if I listen to classical, these speakers are going to sound like shit.

I don't buy it.

Can someone suggest a classical piece (preferable a farily approachable one for an non classical afficianado), that will show me just how shit my speakers really are?

Because at the moment I am 100% convinced that $3000 speakers are going to be more than sufficient for meeting the OP's requirements, and some of you need to get off your high horses, and actually suggest something that meets his reqirements that ARE within budget.

 

[ZolaIII]

Thanks for finding that, because I tried to make that point to another member else who claimed I was wrong in stating that all THD plots presented by Amir around those dates were not at 86 DB SPL as he insisted was the case (even though the plot isn't labeled with any SPL.)

Well as rest of the measurements where actually done on 86 dB that's an easy assumption to make (as I also did) but I remembered back from the day's I complained how they aren't easy to drive (phase shift) that it whose answered by host and it whosent easy to find.