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Quality speakers for classical music with high output/volume

Besides a subwoofer giving you some lower octaves, there are other advantages as well. They've already mentioned that it's less distortion for the speaker trying to play the base region and you might gain a few db of loudness.
One of the other big reasons for a sub is placement and dealing with room modes and boundary interference in your room. The best place for high and mid frequencies is rarely the best place for bass. Having a sub allows you to place it where it will give the best sound.
There are a lot of discussions on sub placement and dealing with room modes. Crossing over the subwoofer at 80 to 100 Hertz allows you to deal with room modes. If you were to cross it over lower like say 40 or 50 hertz because your speakers are capable of that, you would not be fixing room modes.
Summarizing, you get the lower octaves, you get a little more output, you get cleaner output and you get better bass because you can place everything appropriately.
 
To reiterate, it's a simple question: what specs does one use to make an informed decision about which sub to integrate into a given system? Hopefully you agree that choosing a sub by cone diameter does not make sense.
Why not, at least in part? The business of selecting a sub is ultimately a balance between extension, distortion and integration. So a sub with a small cone is likely to distort quite a bit at the lowest frequencies (often a sub with a small driver is better regarded as a bass augmentation device and won't reach 20Hz anyway), while a very large cone may suffer from cone breakup and other issues when asked to run with a higher crossover point and a gentle rolloff. If you cross over at 80Hz with a 12dB/octave slope, your subwoofer is contributing to the playback sound of a violin at a high volume. Remember what I said about playing the Chaconne? At a 24db/octave slope, the sub's contribution is far lower and in most rooms inaudible by the time you get into the violin's range.

I'm not sure we can really talk about the optimum sub/s until the speakers are in the room and you measure the real bass rolloff.
 
PS it was sejarzo who assumed you are talking about budget, not me. But you thank him! Strange indeed.

I made no such assumption. You assumed that my comment about audiophile/hobbyists in general being concerned about cost/benefit, living within a budget and being happy with what they can have, even if they know better is available, was specifically about him. Your comment that prompted this entire kerfuffle was:

"I’ll never understand why some people think that a declaration of one’s modest personal standards for audio reproduction is contributing anything to an audiophile discussion."

Your use of "some people" implies that you were commenting not only on Chaconne's post, but several or perhaps more posts in that vein.
 
Come off it. Your exact words were “never once has it occurred to me to try to replicate, dB for dB, the dynamic peaks of an orchestra. It never even occurred to me that some audiophiles have this as a goal.

That’s not an assumption by be, it’s words by you. What you think some audiophiles have as a goal has nothing to do with your practical realities of neighbours etc. You are moving the goalposts from what you said, as if you never said it.

I tend to cut that sort of fancy debating footwork off at the knees, sorry if you don’t like it.

PS it was sejarzo who assumed you are talking about budget, not me. But you thank him! Strange indeed.
I think I'll just bow out now. Life's too short, and this thread is quite long enough without the derailment that I have regrettably contributed to. My apologies to excelsius and others. I hope soon to read that you've made a satisfying choice. Newman, perhaps we'll find something to agree on amicably down the road, and in the meantime, I wish you well.
 
I'm a little confused by all this Fletcher-Munson talk. I know what it means--no need to explain it to me. But what I don't get is this: The sensitivity of my hearing is the same in the seats of a concert hall as it is in my listening room. If the recording process is linear--from microphone to storage medium--and if the playback process is linear--from storage medium to loudspeakers--then the signal should sound the same to me as it would have were I sitting next to the microphone in the concert hall. I don't need to boost bass to make it sound the same, because I'm desensitized in the lower frequencies in the live venue as much as at home. Deliver to me the sound waves that arrived at the microphone and my hearing is what it is, at least when listening at reference volume.

Of course, that assumption of linearity is silly. The recording and playback chain is subject to a whole range of distortions, some of which are intentional. So, I do my best to add as little of that distortion for the parts I can control as possible.

My Revel F12's were tested in the Canadian National Research Council anechoic chamber and reported by Soundstage here. They test for preservation of linearity by comparing the frequency response of the speaker at loud levels to the frequency response at 70dB, which they assume is the best baseline for the speaker's performance. The Revel F12 did better than other speakers they had tested (which is a long but by no means comprehensive list and now rather outdated just like the F12's), and got such good results at 95 dB SPL (average) that they tested it again at 100 dB SPL. They do not say if they use a weighted SPL curve, so I'm assuming it is unweighted. For some measurements, the SPL is determined by averaging the signal from 300 Hz to 3 KHz. They measure SPL at 2 meters, not the usual 1 meter, in the anechoic chamber. Thus, they get no room reinforcement, and doubling the distance reduces the SPL by 6 dB. So: 95 dB SPL is really 101 dB SPL measured at 1 meter the way most labs do it. But that two meters is fairly close to my listening distance, though in my living room I don't get the full 6 dB drop because of room reinforcement.

Deviation from linearity at 105 dB SPL (compared to 70 dB SPL):
linearity_100db.gif

Note that the additional 35 dB is causing additional distortion at around 1 KHz and in the top octave, causing the level to vary by up to 3 dB.

Assuming the speaker performs well at 70 dB, it isn't going to be all that much different in performance at 105 dB. 90 dB SPL, compared to 70 dB, was dead flat to the fraction of a dB.

They also tested distortion plus noise, and again the good performance at their usual level encouraged them to test again at a higher level. So, they tested at 95 dB SPL, again at 2 meters. Note that this is an average value, measured at 2 meters in an anechoic chamber. In my home, this would be like averaging 100 dB SPL, which is louder than an orchestra evens sitting in the middle of it (and, yes, I have measured that out of concern for my own hearing exposure). Peaks would be far higher at this average, probably 120 dB or more for dynamically recorded music. Remember my play-along-with-a-recording use case makes use of percussive peaks at 110 dB, which is, again, exactly what I measured from our energetic timpanist whacking away at the big kettle drum that is all of10 inches by poor Rick's head. It was abusive to my brain so I measured it--peaks were at 108 dB SPLC--certainly less loud than the NRC's test protocol by something like 10 dB or more. Actually, more, because I'm playing two speakers not one.

Revel F12 speakers response and distortion when playing at an average of 95 dB SPL at two meters in an anechoic chamber:
thd_95db.gif

Pushed this hard, distortion rose above 1% below about 120 Hz, and in the crossover region between the mid-range driver and the tweeter in the 2-3 KHz range.

To show how this compares to the usual tests, here is the frequency response in the anechoic chamber averaged across the +/- 15-degree (4 pi) listening window (go to the report if you want to see the full spin, where it performed very well):

frequency_listeningwindow.gif

Yes, output does drop below about 80 Hz, and that could be restored with a subwoofer. Subwoofers also can be placed to cancel the room modes to get a more linear response in the bass region. But even without a sub, the speakers play tuba sounds that are indistinguishable to my ears from hearing the instrument live. I'll have to conduct that test formally sometime--put a microphone in a room and record myself playing a note, interspersed randomly with the playback of a recording of myself playing the same note on the same tuba in the same room.

These are the sorts of tests that tell me whether a speaker can play loudly or not, it seems to me. I wish they were included in everyone's test protocols.

(The Revel Concerta F12 was the budget offering from Revel a dozen years ago or so, and it sports two 8" woofers, a 5-1/2" mid-range driver, and a 1" tweeter in Revels very special horn. Revel says they need amps from 20-200 WPC, and I'm running them--carefully--with nearly twice the upper number.)

Rick "my research process answering the same original question as the OP" Denney
 
Besides a subwoofer giving you some lower octaves, there are other advantages as well. They've already mentioned that it's less distortion for the speaker trying to play the base region and you might gain a few db of loudness.
One of the other big reasons for a sub is placement and dealing with room modes and boundary interference in your room. The best place for high and mid frequencies is rarely the best place for bass. Having a sub allows you to place it where it will give the best sound.
There are a lot of discussions on sub placement and dealing with room modes. Crossing over the subwoofer at 80 to 100 Hertz allows you to deal with room modes. If you were to cross it over lower like say 40 or 50 hertz because your speakers are capable of that, you would not be fixing room modes.
Summarizing, you get the lower octaves, you get a little more output, you get cleaner output and you get better bass because you can place everything appropriately.

If crossing over lower frequencies to the sub (i.e., the speaker does not receive those frequencies at all) would decrease how far the cone of the speaker would have to travel, I can understand why a sub might lower the distortion in the speakers. Room modes, I don't know anything about. But what now confuses me is that few pages ago I thought it was concluded that adding a sub will not make a speaker louder. In other words, if we omit the sub altogether and just do a high-pass filter to the speaker, the SPL of the speaker is not going to increase. Are we saying now that's not the case? If so, would be good to understand how can the speaker become louder, by how much, and especially if there are any sources that discuss this. I'm having a hard time coming up with the correct search terms to bring up relevant articles.

Why not, at least in part? The business of selecting a sub is ultimately a balance between extension, distortion and integration. So a sub with a small cone is likely to distort quite a bit at the lowest frequencies (often a sub with a small driver is better regarded as a bass augmentation device and won't reach 20Hz anyway), while a very large cone may suffer from cone breakup and other issues when asked to run with a higher crossover point and a gentle rolloff. If you cross over at 80Hz with a 12dB/octave slope, your subwoofer is contributing to the playback sound of a violin at a high volume. Remember what I said about playing the Chaconne? At a 24db/octave slope, the sub's contribution is far lower and in most rooms inaudible by the time you get into the violin's range.

I'm not sure we can really talk about the optimum sub/s until the speakers are in the room and you measure the real bass rolloff.

Because to me, picking a sub by size is a bit like picking a book by thickness: it has more content, but says nothing about quality. As an example, couldn't a poorly designed 12" sub have more distortion than a better designed 10" sub? Or how about picking between subs of the exact same size? This is not necessarily about what sub would fit my room, but more of a theoretical question as to what makes a good sub in general. I ask because after so many posts about cone size and bass, I realized I have not seen much other than diameter being mentioned and opinions. This is especially so given all the complexities that came up in this thread about difficulties of subs producing lower frequencies and human perception requiring a much higher SPL to pick those lower frequencies because they're getting closer to the end of our hearing range.
 
28 pages and still no decision? The sub driver diameter thing is just a general indication of air displacement, but of course doesn't take into account many other elements, but larger does tend to simply be better for subs. Weird placement of speakers and odd listening spots, meh.
 
If crossing over lower frequencies to the sub (i.e., the speaker does not receive those frequencies at all) would decrease how far the cone of the speaker would have to travel, I can understand why a sub might lower the distortion in the speakers. Room modes, I don't know anything about. But what now confuses me is that few pages ago I thought it was concluded that adding a sub will not make a speaker louder. In other words, if we omit the sub altogether and just do a high-pass filter to the speaker, the SPL of the speaker is not going to increase. Are we saying now that's not the case? If so, would be good to understand how can the speaker become louder, by how much, and especially if there are any sources that discuss this. I'm having a hard time coming up with the correct search terms to bring up relevant articles.



Because to me, picking a sub by size is a bit like picking a book by thickness: it has more content, but says nothing about quality. As an example, couldn't a poorly designed 12" sub have more distortion than a better designed 10" sub? Or how about picking between subs of the exact same size? This is not necessarily about what sub would fit my room, but more of a theoretical question as to what makes a good sub in general. I ask because after so many posts about cone size and bass, I realized I have not seen much other than diameter being mentioned and opinions. This is especially so given all the complexities that came up in this thread about difficulties of subs producing lower frequencies and human perception requiring a much higher SPL to pick those lower frequencies because they're getting closer to the end of our hearing range.
Look at the distortion graphs of your speaker and the difference between the 1% and 3%. Most of the problems happen around 100hz and lower. So if you are trying to keep distortion low then you don't play into that 3% range. But, if the sub is handling that duty you can play that much louder. If you are looking at the graph alone it looks like you would gain about 10db but that is not correct in the real world. The reason is a crossover is not a cutoff as you know and the speaker will still play some of the frequencies below 100hz just not as loud or to its limits. In the real world you gain ~3-6db before reaching more audible distortion.
 
28 pages and still no decision? The sub driver diameter thing is just a general indication of air displacement, but of course doesn't take into account many other elements, but larger does tend to simply be better for subs. Weird placement of speakers and odd listening spots, meh.

You missed it. He has already ordered the KH150's and he is waiting for them to arrive. Don't blame you, there have been waaaaay too many big egos clashing in this thread.
 
You missed it. He has already ordered the KH150's and he is waiting for them to arrive. Don't blame you, there have been waaaaay too many big egos clashing in this thread.
I only tuned in now and then, glad there's a decision, hopefully satisfaction follows.
 
@excelsius sub's sheat:
Neumann KH150 driver response:
It shows it all including why to cross @ 100 Hz.
Your question whose wrong, it fals off a cliff little under 50 Hz like it should for it's driver diameter no magic there.

Edit: this rises a bit more concern with me. It turns out woffer can go that high because it's early crossed about 1.6 KHz compared to most designs about 2 KHz. This puts additional pressure on tweeter as in classical orchestral music there will be more overtones (by far compared to simpler vocal one) and most second order harmonics will fall on tweeters it's not a good thing for it.
Instrument Freq Range.png
 
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I'm a little confused by all this Fletcher-Munson talk. I know what it means--no need to explain it to me. But what I don't get is this: The sensitivity of my hearing is the same in the seats of a concert hall as it is in my listening room.
Thanks for this long post Rick. I was going to say something similar.

People do tend to mis-use the FM curve in support of all sorts of arguments, eg to set the target FR to match its shape (LOL!).

If human hearing sensitivity was dead flat, ie the FM curve was a flat line, it would make no difference to the SPL demands of bass drivers, because the music is what it is, and it's the music that the speaker has to reproduce, not our hearing.

As an aside, one could argue that, possibly, music might have evolved to have less bass energy if the FM curve was flat -- but maybe it wouldn't have! It's just an interesting side thought, because the real issue is that the music is what it is.

cheers
 
There are more than 100 conducted experimental scientific researches regarding equal loudness normalisation and all do results varied a lot regarding bass preference and it whose adopted towards it in time neither of them are fundamentally different or contrary to each other. So please read some.
Screenshot_20220914-134211~2.png
 
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There are more than 100 conducted experimental scientific researches regarding equal loudness normalisation and all do results varied a lot regarding bass preference ...

Why 'preference'? Fletcher/Munson ff. is not about the liking of something.

Anyway, F/M has, for the consumer, nothing to do with the original perfomance's loudness. Because the record is already taylored to match the needs of the consumer. Namely to replay the record at home at decent but not necessarily original levels. Presumably the mix already takes the F/M into account, and shifts the bass a bit forward.

Again, the record is not even meant to be a replica of the original performance. Once one accepts this mere fact, the discussion of audio gains logic a lot, transfoming heat, losing entropy as you will :cool:

Add.: the industry has spread the word of "like the original" since decades. For obvious reasons, to put it simple. Please do me the favour to only once in a lifetime imagine an advertizing like "will convey what the mixer intended".

Studio speakers are, to the pros, described like that, going "you will hear what you intend".

You may not join our camp, but you might tolerate the differing view a bit more easily.
 
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Why 'preference'? Fletcher/Munson ff. is not about the liking of something.

Anyway, F/M has, for the consumer, nothing to do with the original perfomance's loudness. Because the record is already taylored to match the needs of the consumer. Namely to replay the record at home at decent but not necessarily original levels. Presumably the mix already takes the F/M into account, and shifts the bass a bit forward.
I agree that assuming that the record is produced in a way that it accounts for your equipment and your preferred listening level then there is not need for any loudness compensation. Then again, if the record is produced using full range speakers and much higher sound level than your listening preference then you have to compensate to listen how "the mixer intended" and that might not be even possible with inferior speakers.

I'm not saying anything about how probable or useful either scenario is, that is meaningless. I'm sure most of us have formed an opinion based on the records we tend to listen.
 
@fineMen well we can't agree about exact amount of bass gain nor are all listener's equal (both objective and subjective) so that's the only reason for using term "preference" from me. All do all studies where on small number of samples (listener's) cumulative and towards same thing they are significant.
Edit: there are recordings with extreme dynamic range from dolby mixes to even R'N'R (Locomotive Breath, Telegraph Road...) and it's not a good thing, not as bad like over compesed one's but not a good thing for reproduction systems. Let's just say how EBU R128 helps a lot with biggest headroom it was (-23 LUFS) all do it significantly costs of output level and with some really, really bad recorded materials even that isn't enough.
I use both EBU R128 on material and ISO 226 2003 on output level (when possible).
 
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Preference statistics are just models of sample populations. They may or may not correctly model any individual’s preference. De gustibus non est disputandum. they are good advice for manufacturers trying to hit the meat of the market, but each of us likes what we like. Toole reports that “people like more bass”, but that may not describe you or me.

I’m not a thumpy bass guy. I listen carefully for timbre of orchestral and wind-ensemble instruments, based on long years of experience playing tuba in those groups. If the tubas sound like tubas and not euphoniums, and if the horns sound like horns and not trombones, and if I can hear the expected difference between Bb and C trumpets, etc., I’m happy. I’m ecstatic if I can tell the difference between an American-style grand orchestral tuba and a German-style Kaisertuba, or between a Besson bass tuba as used in the UK and a B&S Basstuba that might be played in Berlin. I can easily distinguish between an Alexander model 163 and a Miraphone 188 when live, but I’ve never heard the distinction recorded with other variables sufficiently controlled. That difference might cause me to die from excess happiness if I heard it recorded. I’ve never needed a subwoofer to be merely ecstatic with bass accuracy. I might need one to tame room modes.

Bass in amplified music is too difficult to use as a standard. Is the bass player Chris Squire? That will be a completely different sound than John Wetton or Mike Rutherford. We don’t have a live reference for those timbres as recorded even if we’ve heard them in live performance, so we can enjoy differences but we can’t judge accuracy. So if it sounds solid and not ringing or hollow I’m happy enough. I don’t listen to music that needs thumpiness.

All that is more important to me than merely being loud.

So, I don’t make choice based on preference scores. I do make choices based on linearity in my living room at levels I listen to, even if only occasionally.

Rick “again, just providing an example of thought processes for those reading this thread who haven’t yet made a choice” Denney
 
@rdenney let's just say that most speakers will reproduce half of the octave recessed and instead of another bottom octave you will get just one tone from the port. Now that's the lose of 11 tones. It's not about high output SPL with subwoofer's (or at least not only that), they help and when you want to listen more quietly and you then need a bass boosted and gain on quality of it (THD).
Integration isn't easy nor straight forward but it's well worth it. I am not a basshead or ever whose. I prefer less bass than Harman on headphones and do like to listen on higher SPL with good one's (or at least used to) which again have lower THD then speakers so that's more favorable with them. I always liked really good paper cone driver's for their natural timbre and that will probably never change. When bass goes over and mix with or smooths mids it's game over for me.
 
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I'm sure most of us have formed an opinion based on the records we tend to listen.
@fineMen well we can't agree about exact amount of bass gain nor are all listener's equal ...
I lost the breadcrumb trail. Are we talking about an individual bass lift, maybe even record by record, or the necessary output capabilities at home?

I'm not qualified to argue about defiencies in this regard. My "system" would anytime call the police, regardless of the frequency range. But I won't be home then, I'm not silly.

84dB of average level at home it pretty darn loud. Put 20dB of dynamics on top of that, which is plenty, and you end up at 104dB. Remind you, that's the grand total over all the frequency range. The bass part may end up topmost at 94dB - the music is in the overtones, especially for bass.

Would Neuman's 150 deliver? Barely, due to Doppler distortion. Next purchase is a stereo woofer used up to 150Hz. And a set of hearing aids ... :cool:
 
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