Quality speakers for classical music with high output/volume

[excelsius]

Neumann KH 150 do allow on-wall mounting. Almost all studio monitors have low-frequency EQ switch to accommodate for various speaker-to-wall positions. That is not possible with passive loudspeakers. There are rare examples of passive (mostly hi-fi) speakers which are designed to be used as on-wall speakers, but if they are used away from the wall, the bass is almost non-existing. Other 99.99% of passive loudspeakers are designed to be used away from walls - although you can use it close-to-wall, or even on-wall, the bass output then will be unnaturally overwhelming.
View attachment 273854
This is Neumann KH 150 back panel, on the left are "acoustical controls", which should be used as:
- for loudspeaker position in a corner, set bass = -6dB and low-mid = -2dB
- for loudspeaker position on-wall (brick or concrete wall), set bass = -4dB and low-mid = 0
- for loudspeaker position on-wall (gypsum drywall), set bass = -2dB and low-mid = 0

Thanks for this information. I like these speakers even more now. I'm assuming all of this will be covered in the manual, which I usually read front to back before using any high-end technology.

 

[Multicore]

How are you holding up @excelsius ? I saw that back on page 5 you seemed a bit overwhelmed. That would be understandable.

When I asked for speaker suggestions in 2019 I got 6 pages of answers and wasn't sure what to do with them. I ended up with Sierra Acoustics Ascend Tower. Now I have an amp from @Buckeye Amps and a MiniDSP Flex and the whole thing sounds just fine and can play way louder than my apartment life permits. No regrets.

Anyway, I don't want to add to the complexity of your problem by offering my input. Just wanted to check if you're enjoying the ASR treatment

 

[excelsius]

You should be able to control the volume using the Node with it's digital output. That would be my only concern, but I don't know what sampling frequencies the KH-150 can accept.

That's a good point because I was going to buy the remote control as well, which is important for usability. Do you know how I could make sure that the volume control would work with the digital output to KH-150s?

 

[Galliardist]

I still think the simple answer to listening loud is to just sit closer to the speakers for serious listening. Get a chair you can move into place and put it back afterwards (more likely, realise one day that you’re not bothering to any more.,,)

 

[TimW]

That's a good point because I was going to buy the remote control as well, which is important for usability. Do you know how I could make sure that the volume control would work with the digital output to KH-150s?

Here are the Node audio settings. Make sure volume is not set to fixed, which it shouldn't be from the factory anyway. As the KH-150 manual states, start with the lowest gain setting when using a digital input to make sure you don't send full volume to the speakers. After that you can set a max volume using the gain setting of the KH-150 and the volume limits of the Node just to be safe.

 

[fineMen]

I would guess I have listened to 100dB, but ...

O/k, the 'original' orchestra may become that loud in the first few rows.

This changes beyond any recognition with a recording. Logically the sound engineer will adapt the dynamic range to what is socially acceptable in those situations a record is replayed. Because the recording is a utility object, mind you? This is good for you as you can now play the record in an socially acceptable manner.

The actual dynamics of a recording is fully exploited with an average level of about 80dB. I never encountered a recording that exceeded 15dB on top of the average level of 80dB. There are pieces that are mainly quiet by intent of the composer. Then a dynamic peak of 20dB+ will still fall in the range of way below 100dB. The sound engineer will for sure, granted, take care of this.

Please prove me wrong! Provide some data that supports the suggested need. Just plain old data.

Anyway, the calculation of -6dB per doubling of distance is wrong in-room. Not only this should be basic knowledge.

Thing is, with 'classical' all hifi freaks think of an 'original' that shall be 'reproduced' all so correctly by the wonderful stereo of theirs as opposed to pop/rock/dubb with fully artificial sounds. But the subsequent speculations only expose the advertising driven misconceptions regarding the recording process as an art-form. As said, the recording is an abstraction as much as a pencil sketch is not the real thing.

I think it is overdue to provide data regarding real recordings. THank you so much.

We had this before, for tenfold the price point: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...vice-needed-classical-music-budget-30k.39371/

Isn't 30k roundabout the average familiy income in the US? Per year. But for half a dB ... thank's again.

 

[excelsius]

How are you holding up @excelsius ? I saw that back on page 5 you seemed a bit overwhelmed. That would be understandable.

When I asked for speaker suggestions in 2019 I got 6 pages of answers and wasn't sure what to do with them. I ended up with Sierra Acoustics Ascend Tower. Now I have an amp from @Buckeye Amps and a MiniDSP Flex and the whole thing sounds just fine and can play way louder than my apartment life permits. No regrets.

Anyway, I don't want to add to the complexity of your problem by offering my input. Just wanted to check if you're enjoying the ASR treatment

You are more than welcome to add your perspective. I think I did get a lot of information to sort through. The great thing is that now I have more than enough suggestions to build probably 10 different systems. So for my second room, I will likely just go with one of the other suggestions. I'd rather have too much information than too little. This can result in analysis paralysis, but I do think I'm pretty close to ordering something very soon. Just some more technical details to figure out, especially regarding component compatibility and future upgrades.

 

[Head_Unit]

Can you explain more? I thought a sub just outputs lower frequencies/bass. If I want to blast let's say Bach's Chaconne (solo violin), how will a sub help here?
Also, what size of speakers (or other properties) do you mean by big speakers?

[Re when I said "To vastly oversimplify things, big sound needs big speakers (or, to cheat in some sense, smaller speakers with a big subwoofer"]
Well let me repeat the "To vastly oversimplify things" part ha ha. If you want to blast solo violin, or piccolo, or solo female voice, or home recordings of bats, the sub will help not a bit, you are correct. When I think of the spectrum of classical music I think of pieces that generally DO have significant bass content. Many big towers like the Focal 936 (4' tall) are ported down around 40 Hz, which would suffice for an awful lot of that, excepting long organ pipes, the largest kodo drums, and such.

"Big" is a relative term. There is a thing called "Hofmann's Iron Law" (the "H" in KLH) stating that speakers are a tradeoff between how big they are, how low the bass goes, and how power hungry they are. IIRC he said you could have any two out of the three. I'd further posit "Head_Unit's Limitations" which is that those tradeoffs are not all achievable-you can't have a speaker* flat down to 10 Hz the size of a coffee cup because you literally would not be able to physically build a suitable driver. Even if you could, the small size would not be able to output enough volume at that frequency for you to actually hear it. Sound pressure level comes from moving air, and every time you halve the frequency the cone must move 4X as much to maintain the same sound pressure.

How then do some people claim that their favorite speaker with only a 5" woofer has great low bass? Well, if it's ported low that can help the output, as the port reinforces the woofer output. Generally however a small speaker cannot be ported very low effectively. Gain from the room can help some. There's also a psychoacoustic thing where if you hear the overtones, your brain "fills in" the fundamental note (this is exploited in DSP for some of the very small Bluetooth speakers). And if the midrange and treble sound great, some folks are willing to get used to a lighter weight bass presentation.

To me, to be "big enough" for low loud bass means an 8" woofer or twin 6.5"; the Wharfedale Linton Heritage is an example of what I'd consider about the smallest thing I'd personally consider a true full-range speaker for regular music. For those ultra-low musics and movie effects, to me "real" subwoofers have a 12" cone and 400+ real watts.

*headphones are a different matter, since the speakers is right next to your ear and often sealed to it.
Oh, and all the above is without equalization. EQ boost of low frequencies is essentially a way of meeting Hofmann by applying more power at some frequencies.

 

[Vladimir Filevski]

... I think I did get a lot of information to sort through. The great thing is that now I have more than enough suggestions to build probably 10 different systems. So for my second room, I will likely just go with one of the other suggestions. ...

Elac DBR-62 is excellent loudspeaker for that job.

 

[Sokel]

The actual dynamics of a recording is fully exploited with an average level of about 80dB. I never encountered a recording that exceeded 15dB on top of the average level of 80dB. There are pieces that are mainly quiet by intent of the composer. Then a dynamic peak of 20dB+ will still fall in the range of way below 100dB. The sound engineer will for sure, granted, take care of this.

Please prove me wrong! Provide some data that supports the suggested need. Just plain old data.

I don't know if REW's readings are considered hard data but at least are repeatable and anyone can replicate them,so...
I already posted this in the first pages of the thread.
Seems that peaks is not as low as we think they are.
(there are more examples in this thread)

At 85db (A) average,peaks are north of 110db (Z) in some points (noise floor remains the same at 38db (A) ,so no tricks here)

 

[Deleted member 48726]

I don't know if REW's readings are considered hard data but at least are repeatable and anyone can replicate them,so...
I already posted this in the first pages of the thread.
Seems that peaks is not as low as we think they are.
(there are more examples in this thread)

At 85db (A) average,peaks are north of 110db (Z) in some points (noise floor remains the same at 38db (A) ,so no tricks here)

What is the signal?
Does that mean that amplifiers may be clipping more often than we generally think they are?

 

[Sokel]

What is the signal?
Does that mean that amplifiers may be clipping more often than we generally think they are?

Signal is these 12 minutes of beauty and grandeur,one of the most beautiful songs ever written:

(the specific one measured is by LSO)

Edit:YT sound is awful but for those who can't wait for the whole song go after 8.00 min to get a hint of what it takes,despite the inability of the specific recording to present the full beauty.

 

[rdenney]

What is the signal?
Does that mean that amplifiers may be clipping more often than we generally think they are?

I listened to the drum solo on the Chesky demo disk, which is (supposedly) recorded with full dynamics. At listening levels less than I expected, I was seeing brief flashing of the clipping indicators on my amp, which, as I mentioned, puts out well over 300 wpc into my nominally 6-ohm, 94 dB/W/m Revel towers.

My SPL meter was too damped for those peaks, so I don’t really know how sharp they are (I have not analyzed the file digitally).

It was very loud, but not as loud as I would have thought.

This tells me that recordings that preserve dynamics find the limits of amplifiers far more easily than even experienced audio enthusiasts think. Frankly, I have always believed this, and haven’t had less that 250 wpc available in my system in decades because of it. I also listened to a lot of live recordings with no intentional dynamic compression.

I also recall (but not clearly enough to cite the article or its details) a discussion of testing done back in the day. The author claimed that tests were subject to clipping 1% of the time. This seems to me abundant, and likely to be clearly audible (the clipping indicators on my amp during that drum solo were probably orders of magnitude less than 1%). In my mind that possibility looms over the whole amplifiers-are-all-sonically-similar debate.

As for the fear that a beginner will be too enthusiastic with a high-power amp, my response is: if it sounds bad, immediately turn it down.

Rick “marginal increases in listening level exponentially increase power requirements” Denney

 

[Sokel]

I listened to the drum solo on the Chesky demo disk, which is (supposedly) recorded with full dynamics. At listening levels less than I expected, I was seeing brief flashing of the clipping indicators on my amp, which, as I mentioned, puts out well over 300 wpc into my nominally 6-ohm, 94 dB/W/m Revel towers.

My SPL meter was too damped for those peaks, so I don’t really know how sharp they are (I have not analyzed the file digitally).

It was very loud, but not as loud as I would have thought.

This tells me that recordings that preserve dynamics find the limits of amplifiers far more easily than even experienced audio enthusiasts think. Frankly, I have always believed this, and haven’t had less that 250 wpc available in my system in decades because of it. I also listened to a lot of live recordings with no intentional dynamic compression.

I also recall (but not clearly enough to cite the article or its details) a discussion of testing done back in the day. The author claimed that tests were subject to clipping 1% of the time. This seems to me abundant, and likely to be clearly audible (the clipping indicators on my amp during that drum solo were probably orders of magnitude less than 1%). In my mind that possibility looms over the whole amplifiers-are-all-sonically-similar debate.

As for the fear that a beginner will be too enthusiastic with a high-power amp, my response is: if it sounds bad, immediately turn it down.

Rick “marginal increases in listening level exponentially increase power requirements” Denney

What you see in my measurement are two amps,2x600 watt on tap for lows and 2x300 for mid-highs (semi-active system) with some more for bursts.

They both have clipping indicators and some more showing the state of the amps,the only time I have seen clipping is with a similar Japanese recording and the smaller amp put in lows just for the test.

I hope I'll never see the big one clipping,it would mean that something very wrong have occurred.

 

[mj30250]

I listened to the drum solo on the Chesky demo disk, which is (supposedly) recorded with full dynamics. At listening levels less than I expected, I was seeing brief flashing of the clipping indicators on my amp, which, as I mentioned, puts out well over 300 wpc into my nominally 6-ohm, 94 dB/W/m Revel towers.

My SPL meter was too damped for those peaks, so I don’t really know how sharp they are (I have not analyzed the file digitally).

It was very loud, but not as loud as I would have thought.

This tells me that recordings that preserve dynamics find the limits of amplifiers far more easily than even experienced audio enthusiasts think. Frankly, I have always believed this, and haven’t had less that 250 wpc available in my system in decades because of it. I also listened to a lot of live recordings with no intentional dynamic compression.

I also recall (but not clearly enough to cite the article or its details) a discussion of testing done back in the day. The author claimed that tests were subject to clipping 1% of the time. This seems to me abundant, and likely to be clearly audible (the clipping indicators on my amp during that drum solo were probably orders of magnitude less than 1%). In my mind that possibility looms over the whole amplifiers-are-all-sonically-similar debate.

As for the fear that a beginner will be too enthusiastic with a high-power amp, my response is: if it sounds bad, immediately turn it down.

Rick “marginal increases in listening level exponentially increase power requirements” Denney

Just curious, were the Revels running full range?

But that experience is one reason (of several) why I prefer using subwoofers in all but my desktop setup, even if I don't require deep extension most of the time.

 

[Sokel]

Just curious, were the Revels running full range?

But that experience is one reason (of several) why I prefer using subwoofers in all but my desktop setup, even if I don't require deep extension most of the time.

Lows are the major reason for sure,but if you measure the speakers with a voltometer in such a recording you'll be surprised by the demands of higher freqs,specially in lower mid range between 100-250Hz.That's where all the slam is.

 

[JustJones]

I listened to the drum solo on the Chesky demo disk, which is (supposedly) recorded with full dynamics. At listening levels less than I expected, I was seeing brief flashing of the clipping indicators on my amp, which, as I mentioned, puts out well over 300 wpc into my nominally 6-ohm, 94 dB/W/m Revel towers.

My SPL meter was too damped for those peaks, so I don’t really know how sharp they are (I have not analyzed the file digitally).

It was very loud, but not as loud as I would have thought.

This tells me that recordings that preserve dynamics find the limits of amplifiers far more easily than even experienced audio enthusiasts think. Frankly, I have always believed this, and haven’t had less that 250 wpc available in my system in decades because of it. I also listened to a lot of live recordings with no intentional dynamic compression.

I also recall (but not clearly enough to cite the article or its details) a discussion of testing done back in the day. The author claimed that tests were subject to clipping 1% of the time. This seems to me abundant, and likely to be clearly audible (the clipping indicators on my amp during that drum solo were probably orders of magnitude less than 1%). In my mind that possibility looms over the whole amplifiers-are-all-sonically-similar debate.

As for the fear that a beginner will be too enthusiastic with a high-power amp, my response is: if it sounds bad, immediately turn it down.

Rick “marginal increases in listening level exponentially increase power requirements” Denney

I use a dual mono design NC500 hypex amps with dual PS which gives a little extra power.
550w 2 Ohm
700w 4 Ohm
400w 8 Ohm
My speakers are nominal 4 ohm with a dip of 3 ohm at 110hz 89dB 2.83v/1 m
They have 12 inch woofers so I like to go with a lot of watts. I don't push SPL as I find keeping the average level around 70 - 75 dB max at 2m is the sweet spot for preserving detail and image. My old Radio Shack meter shows 65 - 70 dBC most of the time. I don't have clipping indicators is another reason I don't like very high SPL not interested in burning out tweeters or damaging what hearing I have left.

 

[rdenney]

Just curious, were the Revels running full range?

But that experience is one reason (of several) why I prefer using subwoofers in all but my desktop setup, even if I don't require deep extension most of the time.

Yes.

Rick “it wasn’t the bass drum clipping the amp, or any frequencies in the subwoofer range” Denney

 

[Deleted member 48726]

I listened to the drum solo on the Chesky demo disk, which is (supposedly) recorded with full dynamics. At listening levels less than I expected, I was seeing brief flashing of the clipping indicators on my amp, which, as I mentioned, puts out well over 300 wpc into my nominally 6-ohm, 94 dB/W/m Revel towers.

My SPL meter was too damped for those peaks, so I don’t really know how sharp they are (I have not analyzed the file digitally).

It was very loud, but not as loud as I would have thought.

This tells me that recordings that preserve dynamics find the limits of amplifiers far more easily than even experienced audio enthusiasts think. Frankly, I have always believed this, and haven’t had less that 250 wpc available in my system in decades because of it. I also listened to a lot of live recordings with no intentional dynamic compression.

I also recall (but not clearly enough to cite the article or its details) a discussion of testing done back in the day. The author claimed that tests were subject to clipping 1% of the time. This seems to me abundant, and likely to be clearly audible (the clipping indicators on my amp during that drum solo were probably orders of magnitude less than 1%). In my mind that possibility looms over the whole amplifiers-are-all-sonically-similar debate.

As for the fear that a beginner will be too enthusiastic with a high-power amp, my response is: if it sounds bad, immediately turn it down.

Rick “marginal increases in listening level exponentially increase power requirements” Denney

I'm asking kind of leading because I intuitively have always had it the same way in my mind. It's just that I am hesitant telling people that I once saw the clipping lights on my Yamaha P3200 (340 W @ 8 ohm) when I listened (loudly) to a live rock concert recording on my "ordinary" (granted former flagship slim towers with 7 drivers in each column).

It wasn't distorting audibly but I turned it down a notch or two of course. Oh, -and switched to an even more powerful amp.

I bet that people clip their amps more often than they know of but just doesn't notice. And I bet that it's one of the reasons there are no clipping indicators on "residential" amplifiers. Heck, I wouldn't have noticed it without the indicators. It was inaudible. And VU-meters are waaay to damped to show transients.

I've saved this Chesky Demo playlist on Spotify and will try the drum solo some day.

 

[sejarzo]

Let's be serious any bookshelf's with 7~8" woffer's will only do the job with pair of capable subwoofer's.