Quality speakers for classical music with high output/volume

[Pearljam5000]

View attachment 274114

a 10 inch bookshelf without a sub would also be good

 

[JustJones]

a 10 inch bookshelf without a sub would also be good

The above QCS comes as K10.2 or K12.2

PA speakers might be a good fit. Sturdy in case of dog mishap and can get pretty loud.

QSC K12.2 Features:​

• Powerful active PA speaker with 12" LF driver and 1.4" HF driver
• 2,000W, efficient and lightweight Class D power module
• Factory presets cover just about any application you can think of
• User-adjustable parameters for tweaking your system's sound
• Saveable/recallable Scenes make repeated setups a snap
• Multifunction digital display provides useful at-a-glance information
• Directivity Matched Transition (DMT) and Intrinsic Correction DSP for accurate, undistorted performance across the entire sound field
• Doubles as a high-performance floor monitor
• Dual pole cup mounts (straight-firing and down-tilt) and M10 fittings for flown applications
• Rugged ABS enclosure
• Maximum Peak SPL:132 dB SPL @ 1m

 

[sejarzo]

The above QCS comes as K10.2 or K12.2

PA speakers might be a good fit. Sturdy in case of dog mishap and can get pretty loud.

OP noted that he turned down the sub in his car system, so perhaps sub-40 Hz isn't that important. My concern is that he potentially fried a tweeter in the Alesis monitors, which were spec'd by Alesis to provide nearly the same SPLs as the KH150.

I would certainly trust Neumann specs to be more accurate than Alesis, and wouldn't be surprised if the Alesis specs were more than optimistic, but if he tries to push the KH150s to similar levels as he wanted from the Alesis, the limiter is going to kick in, right? What's that going to sound like?

 

[Steve Dallas]

View attachment 274114

I have the original K10 as a monitor for my guitar modeler. It gets stupid loud and sounds surprisingly good for music playback in mono. I have a quiet desire to hear a home theater packed with these things.

Bass extension is limited, however. I need only about 50Hz for undertones of a guitar tuned to Eb, so the K10 covers what I need, but for music, subs are needed for classical programs.

 

[JustJones]

Sub? No problem

QSC KS212C Cardioid 3600W Dual 12 inch Powered Subwoofer​

 

[Steve Dallas]

OP noted that he turned down the sub in his car system, so perhaps sub-40 Hz isn't that important. My concern is that he potentially fried a tweeter in the Alesis monitors, which were spec'd by Alesis to provide nearly the same SPLs as the KH150.

I would certainly trust Neumann specs to be more accurate than Alesis, and wouldn't be surprised if the Alesis specs were more than optimistic, but if he tries to push the KH150s to similar levels as he wanted from the Alesis, the limiter is going to kick in, right? What's that going to sound like?

If the limiter does kick in, he at least has a clue that he is doing something abnormal.

 

[Avp1]

The above QCS comes as K10.2 or K12.2

PA speakers might be a good fit. Sturdy in case of dog mishap and can get pretty loud.

QSC K12.2 Features:​

• Powerful active PA speaker with 12" LF driver and 1.4" HF driver
• 2,000W, efficient and lightweight Class D power module
• Factory presets cover just about any application you can think of
• User-adjustable parameters for tweaking your system's sound
• Saveable/recallable Scenes make repeated setups a snap
• Multifunction digital display provides useful at-a-glance information
• Directivity Matched Transition (DMT) and Intrinsic Correction DSP for accurate, undistorted performance across the entire sound field
• Doubles as a high-performance floor monitor
• Dual pole cup mounts (straight-firing and down-tilt) and M10 fittings for flown applications
• Rugged ABS enclosure
• Maximum Peak SPL:132 dB SPL @ 1m

12" driver is too big to operate effectively in midrange. With 12" bass, you need a separate midrange driver.

 

[Sancus]

12" driver is too big to operate effectively in midrange. With 12" bass, you need a separate midrange driver.

Compression drivers exist.

 

[excelsius]

[Re when I said "To vastly oversimplify things, big sound needs big speakers (or, to cheat in some sense, smaller speakers with a big subwoofer"]
Well let me repeat the "To vastly oversimplify things" part ha ha. If you want to blast solo violin, or piccolo, or solo female voice, or home recordings of bats, the sub will help not a bit, you are correct. When I think of the spectrum of classical music I think of pieces that generally DO have significant bass content. Many big towers like the Focal 936 (4' tall) are ported down around 40 Hz, which would suffice for an awful lot of that, excepting long organ pipes, the largest kodo drums, and such.

"Big" is a relative term. There is a thing called "Hofmann's Iron Law" (the "H" in KLH) stating that speakers are a tradeoff between how big they are, how low the bass goes, and how power hungry they are. IIRC he said you could have any two out of the three. I'd further posit "Head_Unit's Limitations" which is that those tradeoffs are not all achievable-you can't have a speaker* flat down to 10 Hz the size of a coffee cup because you literally would not be able to physically build a suitable driver. Even if you could, the small size would not be able to output enough volume at that frequency for you to actually hear it. Sound pressure level comes from moving air, and every time you halve the frequency the cone must move 4X as much to maintain the same sound pressure.

Thanks for explaining the physics. It makes much more sense now. If I understand correctly, speaker size technically should not matter. In other words, if you could drive a 5" speaker enough to produce a large soundwave, it should be no different than the one produced by a 10" speaker. But mechanically, the 10" speaker would not have to move as much and also it might be technically difficult to move the 5" speaker to produce a loud enough pressure wave. Is it also correct to say that a large speaker would be more energy efficient then?

How then do some people claim that their favorite speaker with only a 5" woofer has great low bass? Well, if it's ported low that can help the output, as the port reinforces the woofer output. Generally however a small speaker cannot be ported very low effectively. Gain from the room can help some. There's also a psychoacoustic thing where if you hear the overtones, your brain "fills in" the fundamental note (this is exploited in DSP for some of the very small Bluetooth speakers). And if the midrange and treble sound great, some folks are willing to get used to a lighter weight bass presentation.

To me, to be "big enough" for low loud bass means an 8" woofer or twin 6.5"; the Wharfedale Linton Heritage is an example of what I'd consider about the smallest thing I'd personally consider a true full-range speaker for regular music. For those ultra-low musics and movie effects, to me "real" subwoofers have a 12" cone and 400+ real watts.

*headphones are a different matter, since the speakers is right next to your ear and often sealed to it.
Oh, and all the above is without equalization. EQ boost of low frequencies is essentially a way of meeting Hofmann by applying more power at some frequencies.

Regarding ported subs, back in the day when I did my car audio, I had read that sealed subs produce more accurate/tighter sound. Was wondering if you had anything you could add about ported vs non-ported subs.

The Linton's really do sound like a nice set of speakers. If I wasn't looking for active speakers right now, I'd likely go with the Lintons.

 

[excelsius]

I listened to the drum solo on the Chesky demo disk, which is (supposedly) recorded with full dynamics. At listening levels less than I expected, I was seeing brief flashing of the clipping indicators on my amp, which, as I mentioned, puts out well over 300 wpc into my nominally 6-ohm, 94 dB/W/m Revel towers.

My SPL meter was too damped for those peaks, so I don’t really know how sharp they are (I have not analyzed the file digitally).

It was very loud, but not as loud as I would have thought.

This tells me that recordings that preserve dynamics find the limits of amplifiers far more easily than even experienced audio enthusiasts think. Frankly, I have always believed this, and haven’t had less that 250 wpc available in my system in decades because of it. I also listened to a lot of live recordings with no intentional dynamic compression.

I also recall (but not clearly enough to cite the article or its details) a discussion of testing done back in the day. The author claimed that tests were subject to clipping 1% of the time. This seems to me abundant, and likely to be clearly audible (the clipping indicators on my amp during that drum solo were probably orders of magnitude less than 1%). In my mind that possibility looms over the whole amplifiers-are-all-sonically-similar debate.

As for the fear that a beginner will be too enthusiastic with a high-power amp, my response is: if it sounds bad, immediately turn it down.

Rick “marginal increases in listening level exponentially increase power requirements” Denney

This would explain why certain classical pieces can't get loud enough without clipping on cheaper equipment. Exactly what I'm trying to avoid with this new setup.

 

[Ellebob]

Speakers move air and small speakers can't move as much air. To hear bass because they have longer wavelengths you need to move more air. You can have an ear bud play 20hz and if it is only trying to fill up your ear canal you can hear the 20hz. But lay that earbud on the table in front of you and you can not hear 20hz coming out of that ear bud. The only thing you hear coming out of the ear bud on the table is higher frequencies and everything sounds tinny. If you are tring to hear the two lowest octaves like low notes on the pipe organ or contrabasson, no bookshelf speaker can do that with any volume. You need bigger woofers (or multiple woofers) typically found in larger speakers or subwoofers.

I mentioned PA speakers in one of the earlier posts. A PA speaker seems a little overkill but no denying they can go louder and usually have great dynamics. Sometimes you lose a little refinement but if you need the dynamics it is worth the tradeoff. With PA speakers you often lose out on low bass as they trade the lower octaves for more output. Typically, PA speakers are made to play loud and the bass you do hear tends to be more like kick drums and not as low as pipe organ or contrabassoon music. If you really want those lower octaves typically a sub is better for a few reasons. Towers with big woofers might take up too much real estate. Letting the subwoofer handle the bass means your speakers can go louder with less distortion, and finally the best location for bass is rarely the best location for the mids and highs. So being able to place the speakers and subs separately so they are in locations where they each work their best is a big benefit.

There has been a big focus on pro monitors and PA speakers but I would maybe try some powered consumer brands like Elac, Kef, SVS, Edifier, Klipsch, B&W (out of your price range), etc. I say that because you listened to speakers that are neutral and you thought the B&Ws sounded better. B&W are not accurate speakers but many people love them. You need to get what YOU prefer. Studio monitors tend to go for more accurate sound and you might prefer the sound of something that isn't as accurate but highlights the music you listen to. I have told many people to listen to brands like Revel and other accurate speakers because I know they measure well and are very neutral but almost everytime they went to the store they said they listened to something they preferred more and bought those. I'll be interested to see what you finally decide.

 

[Alice of Old Vincennes]

Speakers move air and small speakers can't move as much air. To hear bass because they have longer wavelengths you need to move more air. You can have an ear bud play 20hz and if it is only trying to fill up your ear canal you can hear the 20hz. But lay that earbud on the table in front of you and you can not hear 20hz coming out of that ear bud. The only thing you hear coming out of the ear bud on the table is higher frequencies and everything sounds tinny. If you are tring to hear the two lowest octaves like low notes on the pipe organ or contrabasson, no bookshelf speaker can do that with any volume. You need bigger woofers (or multiple woofers) typically found in larger speakers or subwoofers.

I mentioned PA speakers in one of the earlier posts. A PA speaker seems a little overkill but no denying they can go louder and usually have great dynamics. Sometimes you lose a little refinement but if you need the dynamics it is worth the tradeoff. With PA speakers you often lose out on low bass as they trade the lower octaves for more output. Typically, PA speakers are made to play loud and the bass you do hear tends to be more like kick drums and not as low as pipe organ or contrabassoon music. If you really want those lower octaves typically a sub is better for a few reasons. Towers with big woofers might take up too much real estate. Letting the subwoofer handle the bass means your speakers can go louder with less distortion, and finally the best location for bass is rarely the best location for the mids and highs. So being able to place the speakers and subs separately so they are in locations where they each work their best is a big benefit.

There has been a big focus on pro monitors and PA speakers but I would maybe try some powered consumer brands like Elac, Kef, SVS, Edifier, Klipsch, B&W (out of your price range), etc. I say that because you listened to speakers that are neutral and you thought the B&Ws sounded better. B&W are not accurate speakers but many people love them. You need to get what YOU prefer. Studio monitors tend to go for more accurate sound and you might prefer the sound of something that isn't as accurate but highlights the music you listen to. I have told many people to listen to brands like Revel and other accurate speakers because I know they measure well and are very neutral but almost everytime they went to the store they said they listened to something they preferred more and bought those. I'll be interested to see what you finally decide.

Speakers with low distortion don't sound as loud. Speakers with "crisp" showroom mids and highs sound good until the inevitable headache.

 

[excelsius]

Speakers move air and small speakers can't move as much air. To hear bass because they have longer wavelengths you need to move more air. You can have an ear bud play 20hz and if it is only trying to fill up your ear canal you can hear the 20hz. But lay that earbud on the table in front of you and you can not hear 20hz coming out of that ear bud. The only thing you hear coming out of the ear bud on the table is higher frequencies and everything sounds tinny. If you are tring to hear the two lowest octaves like low notes on the pipe organ or contrabasson, no bookshelf speaker can do that with any volume. You need bigger woofers (or multiple woofers) typically found in larger speakers or subwoofers.

I mentioned PA speakers in one of the earlier posts. A PA speaker seems a little overkill but no denying they can go louder and usually have great dynamics. Sometimes you lose a little refinement but if you need the dynamics it is worth the tradeoff. With PA speakers you often lose out on low bass as they trade the lower octaves for more output. Typically, PA speakers are made to play loud and the bass you do hear tends to be more like kick drums and not as low as pipe organ or contrabassoon music. If you really want those lower octaves typically a sub is better for a few reasons. Towers with big woofers might take up too much real estate. Letting the subwoofer handle the bass means your speakers can go louder with less distortion, and finally the best location for bass is rarely the best location for the mids and highs. So being able to place the speakers and subs separately so they are in locations where they each work their best is a big benefit.

There has been a big focus on pro monitors and PA speakers but I would maybe try some powered consumer brands like Elac, Kef, SVS, Edifier, Klipsch, B&W (out of your price range), etc. I say that because you listened to speakers that are neutral and you thought the B&Ws sounded better. B&W are not accurate speakers but many people love them. You need to get what YOU prefer. Studio monitors tend to go for more accurate sound and you might prefer the sound of something that isn't as accurate but highlights the music you listen to. I have told many people to listen to brands like Revel and other accurate speakers because I know they measure well and are very neutral but almost everytime they went to the store they said they listened to something they preferred more and bought those. I'll be interested to see what you finally decide.

I still really liked the Revels too, but thought the BWs sounded brighter. But there are many unknowns with this test: such as I don't know if I still would have liked the BWs better had I listened to Revels first. This was my first high SQ speaker audition, which started with the BWs. I also don't know if long term listening wouldn't result in fatigue. Plus the store room was smaller and acoustically treated compared to mine. This is why given similar price ranges, I'd rather have accurate speakers and worry about the rest later, such as with EQ, if needed.

The owner at the audio store also mentioned that a lot of recording studios actually use BWs (including the Beatles in the past) and he told me that it was the BWs that were more accurate and that's why they sounded crisp. I know that goes against what the users in this forum think. He's been in the business for about three decades.

But of course, I wouldn't mind getting some suggestions on consumer grade, loud, but high SQ speakers, if you or anyone else has specific models in mind.

 

[excelsius]

After some deliberation, I am leaning towards Neumann KH-150. This is especially so since I don’t want to worry about separate amps for now and want active speakers. Genelec 8340 and 8050 would also be within the range. I’m sure they’re all good, but one consideration is whether the KH-150 is still the loudest among this group. Would be curious to hear some pros and cons between them, given everything we have discussed so far.

Additional considerations/questions:

• I decided to ditch Bluesound Node. Given all the negative comments about its internal DAC, plus the lack of balanced outputs, I don’t see a reason to spend $600+ on it and then buy a DAC anyway.
• Instead, I’m going to go with WiiM Pro ($160 with remote) and later possibly add a balanced DAC.
  • Unlike Bluesound, WiiM doesn't have a sub output (or HDMI input). But I'm assuming I would have to connect the sub to an external, balanced miniDSP anyway.
• It seems like I don’t need a DAC right now since I can use the digital out from the streamer directly to the KH-150. Was wondering if anyone knows whether the KH-150’s internal DAC is good enough. A concern would be the ability to control the volume through the WiiM remote control.
• Could someone also suggest what wires I need to buy to connect the streamer digitally to the KH-150s?
• Planning for future additions:
  • Likely going to add a sub at some later point, but after researching, the KH-750 subs are not a good return on value ($1700). This means going with a different sub (or two). This raises challenges with unbalanced sub connecting to a balanced speaker
  • Also read that MA-1 is buggy and is not necessarily better than more universal measuring tools, so I won’t be getting that calibration system. I’m leaning instead towards UMIK-1 at a later point. This means buying MiniDSP Flex ($500) or the much more expensive MiniDSP SHD ($1400). I don’t quite understand the full difference between them yet. The SHD can stream and is Roon Ready (and can even integrate with my Synology NAS). It would likely eliminate the need of another streamer, but I don’t know how good the MiniDSP software is. I don’t have Roon yet (use Foobar), so would have to rely on the native software for now. Streamers like Bluesound and WiiM are great not because of their hardware, but their software. Would be curious to hear from users who use the MiniDSP as a steamer (with and without Roon).
  • For the second room at a later date, considering between the Wharfedale Lintons and Philharmonic BMR if I do give in and go the passive route. I am very curious to hear these speakers or even any large vs small speakers, so I’ll see if there is anywhere nearby I can listen to that difference in “big sound.” Although without a blind test, psychoacoustics will certainly be a large factor.

 

[Ellebob]

Speakers with low distortion don't sound as loud. Speakers with "crisp" showroom mids and highs sound good until the inevitable headache.

So true. We have a saying in the pro world. "Turn down the pain, so you can turn up the gain!"

 

[JustJones]

Could someone also suggest what wires I need to buy to connect the streamer digitally to the KH-150s?

You need a spdif/ coax cable. They look like RCA analog cables just make sure you get digital coax. Something like This

You will also need a second digital coax long enough to connect the speakers together.

seems like I don’t need a DAC right now since I can use the digital out from the streamer directly to the KH-150. Was wondering if anyone knows whether the KH-150’s internal DAC is good enough. A concern would be the a6bility to control the volume through the WiiM remote control.

I wouldn't worry about the DAC in the KH150.
I have no idea if the remote on the WiiM controls volume through its digital out.

 

[Calumniate]

That room doesn't seem that big to me. I think the op would be surprised how loud a reasonable setup can get these days

 

[Steve Dallas]

I still really liked the Revels too, but thought the BWs sounded brighter. But there are many unknowns with this test: such as I don't know if I still would have liked the BWs better had I listened to Revels first. This was my first high SQ speaker audition, which started with the BWs. I also don't know if long term listening wouldn't result in fatigue. Plus the store room was smaller and acoustically treated compared to mine. This is why given similar price ranges, I'd rather have accurate speakers and worry about the rest later, such as with EQ, if needed.

The owner at the audio store also mentioned that a lot of recording studios actually use BWs (including the Beatles in the past) and he told me that it was the BWs that were more accurate and that's why they sounded crisp. I know that goes against what the users in this forum think. He's been in the business for about three decades.

But of course, I wouldn't mind getting some suggestions on consumer grade, loud, but high SQ speakers, if you or anyone else has specific models in mind.

He wanted to sell you speakers.

I owned B&W 800 series speakers from 2000 through 2021 (804N and 805N). You could say I was a fan. The speakers they made back then were accurate and lovely to listen to. Somewhere in the mid 2000s, they switched to their new "house" or "showroom" sound, which is definitely NOT accurate. Their frequency response since then has looked like Batman spreading his "wings". Big bass bump, big treble bump sucked out mids, except for where his head is. Not accurate--designed to stand out in a showroom.

 

[Newman]

I owned B&W 800 series speakers from 2000 through 2021 (804 and 805). You could say I was a fan. The speakers they made back then were accurate and lovely to listen to. Somewhere in the mid 2000s, they switched to their new "house" or "showroom" sound, which is definitely NOT accurate.

According to Toole the B&W colouration is longstanding.

 

[Steve Dallas]

After some deliberation, I am leaning towards Neumann KH-150. This is especially so since I don’t want to worry about separate amps for now and want active speakers. Genelec 8340 and 8050 would also be within the range. I’m sure they’re all good, but one consideration is whether the KH-150 is still the loudest among this group. Would be curious to hear some pros and cons between them, given everything we have discussed so far.

Additional considerations/questions:

1. I decided to ditch Bluesound Node. Given all the negative comments about its internal DAC, plus the lack of balanced outputs, I don’t see a reason to spend $600+ on it and then buy a DAC anyway.
2. Instead, I’m going to go with WiiM Pro ($160 with remote) and later possibly add a balanced DAC.
   1. Unlike Bluesound, WiiM doesn't have a sub output (or HDMI input). But I'm assuming I would have to connect the sub to an external, balanced miniDSP anyway.
3. It seems like I don’t need a DAC right now since I can use the digital out from the streamer directly to the KH-150. Was wondering if anyone knows whether the KH-150’s internal DAC is good enough. A concern would be the ability to control the volume through the WiiM remote control.
4. Could someone also suggest what wires I need to buy to connect the streamer digitally to the KH-150s?
5. Planning for future additions:
   1. Likely going to add a sub at some later point, but after researching, the KH-750 subs are not a good return on value ($1700). This means going with a different sub (or two). This raises challenges with unbalanced sub connecting to a balanced speaker
   2. Also read that MA-1 is buggy and is not necessarily better than more universal measuring tools, so I won’t be getting that calibration system. I’m leaning instead towards UMIK-1 at a later point. This means buying MiniDSP Flex ($500) or the much more expensive MiniDSP SHD ($1400). I don’t quite understand the full difference between them yet. The SHD can stream and is Roon Ready (and can even integrate with my Synology NAS). It would likely eliminate the need of another streamer, but I don’t know how good the MiniDSP software is. I don’t have Roon yet (use Foobar), so would have to rely on the native software for now. Streamers like Bluesound and WiiM are great not because of their hardware, but their software. Would be curious to hear from users who use the MiniDSP as a steamer (with and without Roon).
   3. For the second room at a later date, considering between the Wharfedale Lintons and Philharmonic BMR if I do give in and go the passive route. I am very curious to hear these speakers or even any large vs small speakers, so I’ll see if there is anywhere nearby I can listen to that difference in “big sound.” Although without a blind test, psychoacoustics will certainly be a large factor.

1. What people like most about the Bluesound is the Blue software ecosystem. The device itself is mediocre. If you don't love the ecosystem, there is no reason to choose it.
2. Might be a good choice, assuming the volume control works with the digital output, which is often not the case. Read the manual before you buy.
   1. You need to plan for how you will connect a sub now, or you will be changing stuff out in the future, which is an inefficient waste of money. Be aware that I and other people have had tremendous problems with ground loops with miniDSP products and have given up on placing them in the middle of the chain.
3. Neumann did not skimp on the DAC. If it is good enough for professional recording studios, it is good enough for you.
4. You need a digital coax cable. It looks like a single RCA cable, but has the correct properties for digital. I believe you will need one to connect the speakers to each other as well.
5. Interesting...
   1. Again, you should plan for that now. And, you should plan to add 2 subs. One is never enough.
   2. MA-1 may be a bit buggy, but how much does it matter, when DRC is a set-it-and-forget-it endeavor? The Flex is a processor / DAC / preamp only. The SHD is a streamer / processor / DAC / preamp. If you want flexibility to add properly crossed subs and Dirac and have Roon-ready streaming with balanced and unbalanced connections, the SHD is what you should buy up-front and be done with it. You will spend more than the price of the SHD on a piecemeal system and most likely have integration problems along the way. MiniDSP software, if you are talking about the streaming interface, is Volumio, and it is good.
   3. I have a lot of experience with the standmount BMRs and have written lengthy review threads with in-room measurements on this forum. They are GREAT speakers that sound like small towers, because they are small towers. I have never tried to hit the SPL you describe, so I do not know their upper limits in loudness, other than to say they played uncomfortably loud like all my other speakers. I have not heard the Lintons and really want to.