PS Audio PowerPlant 12 Review (AC Regenerator)

[pinpoint_oxford]

To those who have defended this product in spite of what @amirm offered in his extensive review and measurements, whatever your justifications are for this device do not warrant a $6,000 price tag.

This is certainly a valid opinion.

 

[threni]

"predatory pricing practices" "gobbledegook" "unholy alliance" "ritzy audiophile set" "unctuous of PM" "distaste". So, you don't like Paul McGowan. Must be unpleasant being so angry about how others choose to spend their money on a hobby.

I've seen this sort of reaction before. I don't get it; perhaps it's a cultural thing? There's no anger in the message you're responding too - just statement of facts and opinions; ones which you don't agree with. Perhaps only anger would ever motivate you to criticize something? Or maybe you get cross when people suggest you've fallen for the kool-aid and wasted money on a product? There's rather a lot of good-natured and/or sarcastic criticism of snake-oil salesmen/companies - and the overpriced and underperforming kit they hawk - on this site. I'd never ascribe anger to any of it.

 

[LarryRS]

I've seen this sort of reaction before. I don't get it; perhaps it's a cultural thing? There's no anger in the message you're responding too - just statement of facts and opinions; ones which you don't agree with. Perhaps only anger would ever motivate you to criticize something? Or maybe you get cross when people suggest you've fallen for the kool-aid and wasted money on a product? There's rather a lot of good-natured and/or sarcastic criticism of snake-oil salesmen/companies - and the overpriced and underperforming kit they hawk - on this site. I'd never ascribe anger to any of it.

Predatory. Unholy. Unctuous. Nope, no anger at all. Good-natured criticism. Yep.

 

[Spkrdctr]

Predatory. Unholy. Unctuous. Nope, no anger at all. Good-natured criticism. Yep.

You are going down the wrong path. I can state matter of factly that I am the only person on this site who responds to any snake oil post with anger. I probably do it 2% of the time. My tolerance for it is very low. The moderators and Amir can back me up. They know I have no tolerance for the oil. I try to hold back (mostly). Others on this site are very friendly and do not get angry over snake oil at all. So, if you are referring to me, I am guilty. But the others on this site are innocent as pure driven snow. Truth!

 

[Mart68]

In fairness there are a couple of posts that maybe come across as a bit over the top.

 

[srkbear]

Predatory. Unholy. Unctuous. Nope, no anger at all. Good-natured criticism. Yep.

Well, I wrote the thing, so I’m pretty sure I know what my motives were at the time. And I was fully prepared for any criticisms. Although I think I should point out your ad hominem here—you didn’t respond with any counter arguments; you just attempted to undermine my own by attacking my tone.

I’m not sure I was angry—maybe a little. More disappointed, perhaps—not only with PS Audio’s tactics, but with those who dismissed Amir’s extraordinary efforts without offering any due diligence of their own. But even if I was angry, what’s your point? Have you never been ripped off pursuing this hobby, or paid serious cash for a piece of gear that didn’t live up to its promises? I have, many times—in fact it’s what drew me to this forum in the first place…

 

[captainbeefheart]

Here is an excerpt of the Logic that is going on over at PSAudio from Ted Smith: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?attachments/1646983316097-png.191680/

"There is no argument that you can make that red is green that's convincing"

Ted needs to broaden his understanding of human perception. We do not remotely come close to passively processing data from the physical realm around us, instead we actively construct our perception from maybe 10% of actual real physical data from our senses. Apparently Ted has never seen an optical illusion or even an auditory illusion. Our survival as a species is from the efficiency of this system, we use old data to process and interpret the little information we are actually processing. To anyone that thinks their senses are a perfect "window" into the physical realm you are grossly mistaken, your senses should never be trusted. Prior information will be used to construct your reality, hence bias when you know you switched a component.

Here is a great video from my friend whom I adore that explains this concept with examples. One example is with the auditory stimuli, you hear what you want to hear via information you have prior to processing the data, if you are thinking of "green needle" you hear that, if you're thinking "brain storm" you hear that. Play this clip for two different groups but only tell them one of the possible wordings and they will go online and argue to death that the clip says one or the other when in fact the audio clip can be both depending on the minds bias. Back to Ted's quote, there is an optical illusion where a mirror image of mountains contains no color, yet if you stare at color long enough your brain will use this prior data with the processing of the mirror mountain image and so now they are colored red and green yet in reality there is not color, your mind added the color from prior information. So Ted do you still trust your senses? If so you are a fool, no offense. The people that swear up and down they hear a "huge difference, so much the wife even heard it from the other room" are in denial that they can never be precise test equipment that passively process and show us data without bias and serious error from our own brains. They just cannot accept the fact that they are not precision equipment and their perception is not able to make objective conclusions.

 

[srkbear]

Here is an excerpt of the Logic that is going on over at PSAudio from Ted Smith: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?attachments/1646983316097-png.191680/

"There is no argument that you can make that red is green that's convincing"

Ted needs to broaden his understanding of human perception. We do not remotely come close to passively processing data from the physical realm around us, instead we actively construct our perception from maybe 10% of actual real physical data from our senses. Apparently Ted has never seen an optical illusion or even an auditory illusion. Our survival as a species is from the efficiency of this system, we use old data to process and interpret the little information we are actually processing. To anyone that thinks their senses are a perfect "window" into the physical realm you are grossly mistaken, your senses should never be trusted. Prior information will be used to construct your reality, hence bias when you know you switched a component.

Here is a great video from my friend whom I adore that explains this concept with examples. One example is with the auditory stimuli, you hear what you want to hear via information you have prior to processing the data, if you are thinking of "green needle" you hear that, if you're thinking "brain storm" you hear that. Play this clip for two different groups but only tell them one of the possible wordings and they will go online and argue to death that the clip says one or the other when in fact the audio clip can be both depending on the minds bias. Back to Ted's quote, there is an optical illusion where a mirror image of mountains contains no color, yet if you stare at color long enough your brain will use this prior data with the processing of the mirror mountain image and so now they are colored red and green yet in reality there is not color, your mind added the color from prior information. So Ted do you still trust your senses? If so you are a fool, no offense. The people that swear up and down they hear a "huge difference, so much the wife even heard it from the other room" are in denial that they can never be precise test equipment that passively process and show us data without bias and serious error from our own brains. They just cannot accept the fact that they are not precision equipment and their perception is not able to make objective conclusions.

Hear hear.

 

[LarryRS]

Well, I wrote the thing, so I’m pretty sure I know what my motives were at the time. And I was fully prepared for any criticisms. Although I think I should point out your ad hominem here—you didn’t respond with any counter arguments; you just attempted to undermine my own by attacking my tone.

I’m not sure I was angry—maybe a little. More disappointed, perhaps—not only with PS Audio’s tactics, but with those who dismissed Amir’s extraordinary efforts without offering any due diligence of their own. But even if I was angry, what’s your point? Have you never been ripped off pursuing this hobby, or paid serious cash for a piece of gear that didn’t live up to its promises? I have, many times—in fact it’s what drew me to this forum in the first place…

I've been in this hobby for a long time. And I certainly have bought gear that didn't live up to my expectations. I don't think I've been ripped off, since I've been fairly careful in basing my expectations on my experience. But, I certainly have a difficult time in applying the ripoff descriptor to a company that provides a 3 year warranty (even going so far as using the date of manufacture of a piece of equipment if returned for service without purchase documentation), will take trade-ins and has a very good service support system. They have also frequently employed a beta test program where customers purchase new equipment at reduced prices with an agreement that they will participate in a closed forum to provide feedback about the piece (any changes that result from the feedback are performed on the beta units without charge) - would love to figure out how to get in on that. Moreover, they have been business for a very long time (since the late 70's/early 80's maybe?).

For those wondering, yes I have had PS Audio gear. And I have also sold on PS Audio gear when I felt that another piece of equipment worked better in my system(s). I have also owned equipment from many other audio manufacturers, at all levels of cost (since I've been in this hobby since my teens).

As some have posted here in this particular thread, the PowerPlant did eliminate noise problems for them. It may not for others. Similarly, another piece of gear may fit your needs much better than mine and vice-versa, and it isn't necessarily related to the measurements used here. Magnepans are great examples - they do not measure well using the system Amir uses, but they can provide an enormously satisfying music listening experience. And the listening is the key.

There is, and has been, a lot of snake oil in this hobby (e.g., painting the edges of CDs green with a marker, placing little dots on the wall, etc.) I don't consider the PS Audio gear to fall into that category. They may make some equipment that some would consider to be overpriced and others would not. It all depends on the priorities of the listener/purchaser. As far as the ad hominem tone of my post - I was also reacting to the tone of many of the posts on this thread that just seem to echo the "Oh yeah, all snake oil...." mindset coming from many that have not heard the equipment under discussion. However, the descriptive terms used in describing Paul McGowan and PS Audio can also certainly be described as ad hominem. There are many very informative posts on this forum, which is why I read it as well, but there is also lot of "me, too"ism disparaging equipment with sonically insignificant differences on the measurements that happen to be employed here.

 

[pinpoint_oxford]

As some have posted here in this particular thread, the PowerPlant did eliminate noise problems for them.

It did for me. I exist in a world where I understand the reality of the equipment that I buy yet can also find value in it.

 

[amirm]

There is a substantial negative to this device that doesn't exist for other tweaks. Buy a $5,000 audio cable and while it may not do anything for your sound, it won't break down any sooner than a cheap cable. But this PS audio regenerator and you are into huge complexity akin to a very high power amplifier. It can break down and incur large expense to repair. Even paying for shipping will be substantial.

So to the extent people buy this to solve imaginary audio problems, they are making worse decision than other audio tweaks.

 

[srkbear]

I've been in this hobby for a long time. And I certainly have bought gear that didn't live up to my expectations. I don't think I've been ripped off, since I've been fairly careful in basing my expectations on my experience. But, I certainly have a difficult time in applying the ripoff descriptor to a company that provides a 3 year warranty (even going so far as using the date of manufacture of a piece of equipment if returned for service without purchase documentation), will take trade-ins and has a very good service support system. They have also frequently employed a beta test program where customers purchase new equipment at reduced prices with an agreement that they will participate in a closed forum to provide feedback about the piece (any changes that result from the feedback are performed on the beta units without charge) - would love to figure out how to get in on that. Moreover, they have been business for a very long time (since the late 70's/early 80's maybe?).

For those wondering, yes I have had PS Audio gear. And I have also sold on PS Audio gear when I felt that another piece of equipment worked better in my system(s). I have also owned equipment from many other audio manufacturers, at all levels of cost (since I've been in this hobby since my teens).

As some have posted here in this particular thread, the PowerPlant did eliminate noise problems for them. It may not for others. Similarly, another piece of gear may fit your needs much better than mine and vice-versa, and it isn't necessarily related to the measurements used here. Magnepans are great examples - they do not measure well using the system Amir uses, but they can provide an enormously satisfying music listening experience. And the listening is the key.

There is, and has been, a lot of snake oil in this hobby (e.g., painting the edges of CDs green with a marker, placing little dots on the wall, etc.) I don't consider the PS Audio gear to fall into that category. They may make some equipment that some would consider to be overpriced and others would not. It all depends on the priorities of the listener/purchaser. As far as the ad hominem tone of my post - I was also reacting to the tone of many of the posts on this thread that just seem to echo the "Oh yeah, all snake oil...." mindset coming from many that have not heard the equipment under discussion. However, the descriptive terms used in describing Paul McGowan and PS Audio can also certainly be described as ad hominem. There are many very informative posts on this forum, which is why I read it as well, but there is also lot of "me, too"ism disparaging equipment with sonically insignificant differences on the measurements that happen to be employed here.

Look, I have no designs on making an enemy of a stranger (and fellow enthusiast) on here. I get your fatigue with the snake oil rhetoric, but you made that up about me, and in my case it wasn’t what my post was about.

And I think it’s fair to say that my post was not simply a hollow claim. I tried to describe a very specific tactic on Paul McGowan’s part, that if true would surely be a deceptive, cynical one—and would offer a compelling explanation for his bizarre claims about IIS that run contrary to the accepted science and the positions of the majority of his peers.

To me, this coup he made with Sony was a very reasonable theory for his enthusiasm for IIS—it helped fill in a number of gaps for me, and it filled them in with cash. Someone of his supposed stature and grasp of audio engineering shouldn’t be going around claiming that IIS connections sound “better” than others, unless he has some stake in the tech that he’s hiding under the table—and I think his highly lucrative, proprietary and unmentioned agreement with Sony suggests that he does. It’s the intellectual dishonesty at work here that sours me on his brand.

But even if we forget all of this, c’mon—what PS Audio charges for their gear is ridiculous, full stop. I applaud Amir for providing us with hard evidence refuting their lofty claims, especially in such a rigorous, disciplined way. There were quite a few contrary responses from some folks on this thread, who showed very little in the way of respect, gratitude or due diligence in their response—they just threw out some whataboutisms, seeming to forget that we’re discussing a $6000 price tag for what is essentially a fancy power strip. In any other context we’d point at that and laugh. As we SHOULD. Peace.

 

[captainbeefheart]

There is, and has been, a lot of snake oil in this hobby (e.g., painting the edges of CDs green with a marker, placing little dots on the wall, etc.) I don't consider the PS Audio gear to fall into that category.

You are okay for a company to publicly make false claims (false advertising) and provide disinformation on the regular?

There are not just a few but multiple examples of both false claims and disinformation from Paul where I don't see how anyone could argue them as anything other than a snake oil company. It's literally glaringly clear to the many that have an in depth understanding of complex concepts relating to the technology.

Quick example:

Paul puts his foot so far in his mouth when he is telling his beloved followers about "timbre" (which he mispronounces btw). Paul claims that timbre is the magic behind his products and there is no means to date of a way to measure this phenomena. This is cringey at best says Mr. Fourier

His claims on what the device in question in this thread will do to your system are clearly and logically shown to be false by this objective review. I can't understand how anyone will still defend their company, people should be grabbing pitchforks and torches over such deceptive practices yet denial takes over and people cling to their hopes that Paul is still somehow a saint and we all just don't get it. Okay so someone paid $6,000 to possibly resolve a ground loop issue as that's about the only thing this device may actually effect, but ask yourself is there a more elegant and less wasteful solution to problem? The answer is yes, you don't need to spend $6,000 to resolve a ground loop. The device's output has the same exact profile as the input, period, in fact the sheer point they contradict themselves about needing this device to first "clean distortion" then it makes your power better by flattening the top which introduces odd harmonics, yes distortion so which one is it? All of these facts should be huge red flags to stay away from the company either because they don't know what they are doing or worse, they are malicious and just making stuff up to charge you huge money for something that doesn't do what it claims to do. I don't think anyone is saying that it doesn't do exactly nothing, my example of possibly changing ground loops may happen but it's the fact they are lying to you about what it does to make a quick buck.

 

[Ricardus]

"predatory pricing practices" "gobbledegook" "unholy alliance" "ritzy audiophile set" "unctuous of PM" "distaste".

I see truth here.

PM and those kinds of audiophiles are malignant narcissists. People like us pointing that out doesn't make us the bad guys. There are political parallels but I won't go there.

 

[LarryRS]

What is predatory? Are you, or anyone else, forced to buy from them? How do you define an audiophile that is a malignant narcissist? Someone who buys a piece of equipment from PS Audio? How, exactly is that malignant?

 

[captainbeefheart]

What is predatory?

Let's look at the definition of the word "predatory".

Definition: Living or characterized by the exploitation of others for personal gain.

Paul exploits the fact the majority of his customers do not hold EE degrees. He and the marketing department can spin a word salad of technical terms around and flat out lie about their products knowing full well most of his target audience won't know any better or understand the truth and so he gains personal income from this.

When someone purposely does this they are a cancer to an industry where other are trying to be honest, hence the "malignant" analogy.

 

[LarryRS]

You seem to think incredibly little of the intelligence of your fellow audiophiles. There is a far lower percentage of insipid ninnies in the hobby than you seem to think. As far as whatever malignancy there is in the hobby, we've certainly seen much of it on display in this thread. Thankfully, it hasn't seemed to metastasize far beyond.

"You can't hold a man down without staying down with him". -Booker T. Washington, reformer, educator, and author (5 Apr 1856-1915)

 

[captainbeefheart]

You seem to think incredibly little of the intelligence of your fellow audiophiles.

No, you are twisting my words around now.

I know what I said. Are you saying that I am wrong? What percentage of consumers that purchase audio products hold electrical engineering degrees and or have a very thorough understanding of physics, math, and the art of electronics?

 

[Angsty]

Let's look at the definition of the word "predatory".

Definition: Living or characterized by the exploitation of others for personal gain.

Paul exploits the fact the majority of his customers do not hold EE degrees. He and the marketing department can spin a word salad of technical terms around and flat out lie about their products knowing full well most of his target audience won't know any better or understand the truth and so he gains personal income from this.

When someone purposely does this they are a cancer to an industry where other are trying to be honest, hence the "malignant" analogy.

Predatory would only apply if the customers have no other real options. Paul does make money on ignorance, but much of that ignorance is wilful. Much of modern consumerism is based on wilful ignorance. If one can afford one of Paul's products, one can likely afford to pick up a paperback TAB book on audio electronics. Many people would rather fall for advertising than for education; stories matter more than facts for many consumers.

I don't buy Paul's shtick not because I have a EE degree, but because I've learned enough to be wary through my own reading.

"It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they've been fooled” - Mark Twain

 

[LarryRS]

No, you are twisting my words around now.

I know what I said. Are you saying that I am wrong? What percentage of consumers that purchase audio products hold electrical engineering degrees and or have a very thorough understanding of physics, math, and the art of electronics?

I'm not twisting your words. You wrote "Paul exploits the fact the majority of his customers do not hold EE degrees." So one should have a degree in electrical engineering to make an informed decision on what sounds good to you when you play music on your audio system? Should you also have a mechanical engineering degree to take a test drive and be able to decide what car you like, or a degree in food science and nutrition to decide if you prefer marinara or carbonara?