PS Audio PowerPlant 12 Review (AC Regenerator)

[Billy Budapest]

@Billy Budapest Hey, that's really fascinating. But doesn't it take time to set up the magnetic and electric fields that in turn create a Poynting Vector towards the light bulb ? as you get farther and farther away, say 0.5 light seconds away, there are no fields at all in that region for ~ 0.5 second because it takes time for the fields to propagate out there.

That’s one of ElectroBOOM’s criticisms.

 

[dasdoing]

There are true believers, too. With how easy it is to fool the brain into hearing things that are not there, one can assume that it's not just consumers who are fooled.

One can't expect all (most?) consumers to understand electricity, electronics, psycho-acoustics. But audio reviewers and manufacturers that allow themselves to be fooled, like any average consumer, are incompetent in their chosen field. Whether they know it or not, they are complicit to a scam.

Possibly or the more likely explanation they think they aren't subject to bias like a lot of audiophiles. I would ask have they heard these substantial differences in a blind comparison.

there is no way that everybody who bought this thing heard a significant diference while there is zero.
that's not how bias works. you pay thousands of $ for this thing, you will AB at least a little. no way can you hear a diference while ABing a little. one guy ot two, ok.....but all buyers? no way. all those saying it makes a diference are payed. all the scammed costumours are jut too ashamed to say they paid thousands for a power strip with a fuse.

 

[SIY]

there is no way that everybody who bought this thing heard a significant diference while there is zero.
that's not how bias works. you pay thousands of $ for this thing, you will AB at least a little. no way can you hear a diference while ABing a little. one guy ot two, ok.....but all buyers? no way. all those saying it makes a diference are payed. all the scammed costumours are jut too ashamed to say they paid thousands for a power strip with a fuse.

Now do homeopathy.

 

[RichB]

This was tested first and foremost:

I even cut and paste PS Audio P12 specs in the middle of scope and FFT display above.

As for the rest, I give them the benefit of doubt that they are correct.

If you don't care then you are not a target customer for this device. This is not a commercial AC product. It is sold and marketed to people with seemingly no problem with their AC power, to improve the fidelity of their system. That includes said "random DAC."

"With your system powered directly from the output of the P12, you can expect far better micro and macro dynamics, as well as cleaner, lower background noise. This is one of the most important pieces of audio equipment you can own, building a firm and reliable foundation for your system that will serve you for years to come."

See? It is sold as audio equipment with the claim that it lowers background noise, improves macro dynamics. It did neither to my DAC and statement above has no exclusion for such.


Oh, it holds plenty of weight unless you don't want to face the facts that this is not going to improve the fidelity of your audio system. The specs BTW, don't at all back the claims I have quoted above.

There is little doubt that PS Audio fully embraces absurd audiophile claims in its marketing and the measurements certainly debunk the marketing. So, no tear for PS Audio.

There are folks who live in areas with brown outs and power fluctuation, do devices like this mitigate this problem?

- Rich

 

[LEFASR160]

It wouldn't even help in this case. The regenerator is still supplying AC power to the amp. The capacitors in the amp are required to supply current in between the peaks of the AC. If a transient power spike takes more current than the amp capacitors can deliver, the voltage will still sag regardless of the capacitors in the regen unit.

@tonycollinet But will the net supplied current to the amp meet its demand if there is the power regen between mains and amp ?

 

[DonR]

@tonycollinet But will the net supplied current to the amp meet its demand if there is the power regen between mains and amp ?

It will if the amp has sufficient capacity in its power supply. The only time a regen will help is if the power supply was poorly designed from the start but then poor design is not uncommon in "high end" audio.

 

[LEFASR160]

It will if the amp has sufficient capacity in its power supply. The only time a regen will help is if the power supply was poorly designed from the start but then poor design is not uncommon in "high end" audio.

@DonR Then we can agree: if your amp is not robust (meaning poorly designed with say not enough capacitance etc) then a power regen might help it.

 

[tomchr]

Try unplugging your wifi router during the measurement. All that 15 Hz + harmonics looks a lot like interference from the SSID broadcast.

It would be interesting to see a before/after with a "linear" supply rather than a switching one. (Yes, yes. A "linear" supply is not linear and switches too. That's why I use the quotation marks). I doubt it'll make any difference.

Tom

 

[DonR]

@DonR Then we can agree: if your amp is not robust (meaning poorly designed with say not enough capacitance etc) then a power regen might help it.

But then... why not just put the money towards a better amp? PowerPlant appears to be solving a problem that shouldn't be a problem to begin with. Even relatively modest amplifiers at a fraction of the cost should have no issues for 99% of household power.

 

[LEFASR160]

@DonR I agree, although I don't know that it would be a fraction of the cost, [the p12 costs MSRP $5500 and I just sold on line a brand new factory sealed P12 for $4800], because a well designed amp might be many thousands of dollars today. My 30 year old Mark Levinson 23.5 I think cost like $6000 30 years ago. If you dial that forward in time with inflation arbitrarily set at 3.5% annually, the cost in today's dollars would be like $17,000. It was said to be one of the best made amps around at the time. I think Atkins at Stereophile once said [paraphrasing from memory] that "any well designed amplifier does not need a power conditioner". So to get a comparable amp today maybe one could argue that you'd have to spend at least $17,000 ? Plus, amp technology components used today might have changed (I'm no expert on that) and maybe you'd have to spend twice that amount today to get a comparable piece of equipment. In any event, I agree with you. A better amp makes more sense.

 

[DonR]

@DonR I agree, although I don't know that it would be a fraction of the cost, [the p12 costs MSRP $5500 and I just sold on line a brand new factory sealed P12 for $4800], because a well designed amp might be many thousands of dollars today. My 30 year old Mark Levinson 23.5 I think cost like $6000 30 years ago. If you dial that forward in time with inflation arbitrarily set at 3.5% annually, the cost in today's dollars would be like $17,000. It was said to be one of the best made amps around at the time. I think Atkins at Stereophile once said [paraphrasing from memory] that "any well designed amplifier does not need a power conditioner". So to get a comparable amp today maybe one could argue that you'd have to spend at least $17,000 ? Plus, amp technology components used today might have changed (I'm no expert on that) and maybe you'd have to spend twice that amount today to get a comparable piece of equipment. In any event, I agree with you. A better amp makes more sense.

Most amps above $1000 are probably more than sufficient. Cost doesn't correlate with capability, especially in high-end audio.

 

[amirm]

To 2): The measurements don't seem to address this claim at all, or try to prove/disprove it in any way. So to that extent, it would be interesting to see what the output behaviour of a high power amp would be, powered through the Powerplant, in particular in a high output power scenario.

Last night I was going to test it with a power amp but just don't have the bandwidth anymore. Personally I would not use a poweramp with it. This box has only 700 watts or so of output capacity. Pushing it hard that way will force its fan to come, creating noise, and waste heat and electricity. For sure, you will get less power delivered to your amp with it, than without due to its losses. Yes, there is a claim of momentary peak power but that is handled by capacitors in your power amp which are much closer to where they are needed, than the incoming AC.

 

[LEFASR160]

@DonR Are you sure that most $1000 amps can double down their wattage output continuously without clipping from 8 ohm to 4 ohm and to 2 ohm ?

 

[amirm]

It would be interesting to see a before/after with a "linear" supply rather than a switching one.

I did that already and post in the review:

 

[DonR]

@DonR Are you sure that a $1000 amp can double down its wattage output continuously without clipping from 8 ohm to 4 ohm and to 2 ohm ?

Probably not but a 700W PowerPlant won't help in that situation either.

 

[egellings]

To step up the voltage beyond the AC line level, some sort of transformer would be needed.

 

[JustJones]

there is no way that everybody who bought this thing heard a significant diference while there is zero.
that's not how bias works

Without any kind of blind testing I thought that was exactly how bias worked, at least for those of us not immune to it. With significant being a 10 and zero, 0 where's all the 3s and 4s?

 

[dasdoing]

I thought that was exactly how bias worked

"hey, there is a touch more bass"

ok

but

"my sound got much better"

no way.


you can imagine/suggest a subtle diference (where there is none), but not a significant one which is what "users" seam to claim exists

 

[bigguyca]

To step up the voltage beyond the AC line level, some sort of transformer would be needed.

How is this relevant?

 

[Spkrdctr]

So no, this is not a random case of "finding a sample" not doing anything. Many samples have been tested over time. And no person or company has shown a single case of effectiveness. Any reasonable person then can arrive at the conclusion I have. Indeed many can do that without all the work that has been done.

Amir, that is the audiophile response to almost every test imaginable. Well, that is "this" system at this time. It is pure 100% BS. Nothing in the world would ever be made it this thinking was used. I have one transistor that acts this way when tested. But, I can't make a million of them and put them into products all over the world because I don't know how the transistor will act in all those other situations. It is BS of the highest order. Remember my drinking the bleach example. 100 out of 100 people died drinking a quart of bleach. So we say "Don't drink bleach or you will die". Then someone says "Well, that is only with your 100 test subjects. Test 10,000 and see if it holds true.
It is intellectual stupidity at its best. I will stop ranting now!