• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

PS Audio P12 Review Part 2: Power Testing

OP
amirm

amirm

Founder/Admin
Staff Member
CFO (Chief Fun Officer)
Joined
Feb 13, 2016
Messages
44,699
Likes
241,307
Location
Seattle Area
And any objections to test methods etc, with request to redo tests properly, are ususually killed with phases like "Oh, I've already packed up the unit to send it back" etc.
Except that in this case, I unpacked the fully ready to be shipped box with tape and all, and carried the darn 50 pound package upstairs. I then found an amp that could producer higher peak power than average, and tested the two together. My back is still hurting from the transport and am hoping to nurse it until I have to bring the thing back downstairs to pack.

Still, I thought it was important to nail this argument that the P12 manufactures more peak power in your amplifier as to "improve dynamics." This was a new argument for this class of device so I thought the pain was worth it. And that the buyers of this product were believing in this "feature."

So you are wrong on that and would behoove you to read the introduction before putting your foot in your mouth this way.

Second, if I thought stuff you suggested were remotely useful things, I would consider them. But they are not. They are just busy work which at the end, do not advance any argument for usefulness of this device for purpose that people who buy them. So look at this situation as your failing, not mine. Others convinced me to run far more tests on this device than I have done in the past. Your suggests on the other hand come across as bitterness more than anything else.
 
OP
amirm

amirm

Founder/Admin
Staff Member
CFO (Chief Fun Officer)
Joined
Feb 13, 2016
Messages
44,699
Likes
241,307
Location
Seattle Area
Everybody is allowed to start their own site and "show us how to do it right" IMHO.
Really. They don't realize that people don't want to see an A to Z measurement of a device. Readers will lose interest after the first one and you would have to close shop. Key is to run enough tests to determine with high confidence the conclusions of the review. Anything more is for a different purpose than assessing the usefulness and value of an audio device.

Nothing in our charter is about lab style full test/certification of products. Companies charge thousands of dollars and take days and weeks to produce such tests. I am doing a review of a product with focused testing of what matters. If I miss something, companies who build them can suggest them. Or members can with proper justification. Just saying, "you didn't run 50 tests so this is no good" misses so many things from common sense to logic.
 

Ingenieur

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Apr 23, 2021
Messages
938
Likes
747
Location
PA
He does this with his own money and time (more valuable than $). He has the credentials. He takes donations but I can't imagine them covering the Klippel or his analyzers, likely not even the site hosting fee.

Members donate $ and gear.

I'm not sure what the he!! some people expect. I do technical engineering for a profession, ~35 years (MSEE, PE) I respect his work and consider it well executed. And I'm a hard judge in these matters, harder on myself. It gives me the data to develop an informed opinion.

On top of that he's got to put up with BS?
God bless him because I'd be on a Holy terror. ;)
 
Last edited:

NoSnakeOil2

Member
Joined
May 15, 2020
Messages
69
Likes
78
Yes, to ever find out you are wrong you first have to care about whether you are wrong and have some way of "finding out how I'd be wrong."

This isn't something the purely subjective epistemology offers.

Because you can always imagine a difference and that will trump any and all objective evidence to the contrary. And even on the purely subjective paradigm you can't be "shown wrong" by someone else's subjective experience of not hearing a difference. That just means they don't have your magic powers...er...powers of perception (or resolving system...etc).

It's a Dogmatic system of Faith that one doesn't recognize, and the inevitable psychological projection is that anyone who challenges it is being "Dogmatic."

Maddening.
As Socates once said, "Paul's epistemology sucks.")))
 

Cbdb2

Major Contributor
Joined
Sep 8, 2019
Messages
1,557
Likes
1,536
Location
Vancouver
You are 100% right.
But I really hope the goal of ASR is not to focus on disproving claims from equipment makers using absolute statements.
Sometimes you need to read between the lines and be open for the actual claim.
I am quite sure also Paul from PS audio realizes that a P12 can improve sound in 'some' situations and will make no difference at all in many other situations and can even worsen sound in other situations.
The P12 maybe able to boost voltage but it can't make power so the current it can output must decrease which means the output impedance increases. Which is not what they claim. I am absolutely sure Paul from BS audio is an idiot and a liar.
 

Ingenieur

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Apr 23, 2021
Messages
938
Likes
747
Location
PA
I did something the other day folks on this forum might consider wacky, lol

I used a test record to adjust cartridge azimuth. (Thanks @JP)
Used:
Test lp with L and R 1000 Hz tones
An RCA set with ends prepared for clips
Fluke VOM

I played the tones and averaged the 'on' channel and 'off' channel (cross talk) tones for each channel. I measured at my phono-amp out,
'on' 315 (305 and 325) mV range, 'off' 25 mV.

You determine the cross talk as follows:
20 log (L on / R off) and vice versa
You want them to match (or close)
As careful as I was visually setting it, itwas way off, >1015 dB., 40 and 10 mV. (18 and 30 dB).

I rotated the headshell to get the direction that increased/decreased each channel (opposites obviously).
When I was done both were at 22 dB .+/- a few tenths.

Yes, it made a difference in separation and localization of a sound source. I was skeptical, but it did, at least my perception.
 

Larry B. Larabee

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 24, 2021
Messages
347
Likes
194
Why isn't your ML close at hand so that you can save your back dragging amps up and down the stairs.
Why does the Outlaw amp need to be run near clipping to check the PS12s line/load regulation.

The natives are getting restless, long time member natives, too?
 

voodooless

Grand Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jun 16, 2020
Messages
10,406
Likes
18,375
Location
Netherlands
Really. They don't realize that people don't want to see an A to Z measurement of a device. Readers will lose interest after the first one and you would have to close shop. Key is to run enough tests to determine with high confidence the conclusions of the review. Anything more is for a different purpose than assessing the usefulness and value of an audio device.
I fully acknowledge what your goal is here, but for me at least I would welcome a bit more in-depth tests to see if the technical aspects of the product are working, like the regulation for instance.

I think the word “review” might be a bit misleading. It suggests a full assessment, and that’s not what we get here. “Tests” would be more fitting in my mind. But that might just be me not having English as my first language. In any case, most by now know what to expect, some might want more… you can’t please everyone.
 

Ingenieur

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Apr 23, 2021
Messages
938
Likes
747
Location
PA
There is no compromise until the subjective at least acknowledge that two 120 V power sources measure identically, wall and conditioned, will not impact SQ positively or negatively.

There must be more than 'I hear a difference'.
This from folks who are older, deteriorating hearing, and haven't had it tested in decades, if ever.

I hear these claims of 'flat to >15 kHz' and smh. I've had mine tested every year since the mid 90's. (Missed 1 early in Covid).
I take care of my hearing now, early careless in my Army days.
I'm good to 6-7 kHz, down a bit.
iirc tests only go to 8 kHz (6?). The equipment is not that good (headphones, playback, etc).

Yes, I can hear 12 kHz tones, even higher, but they are likely down 12 dB down or more relative to 6 kHz.
And my Doc says I have good hearing for my age!

Ears and perception can be trusted, but not override actual, relevant measurements like power quality, DAC response, etc.
 
OP
amirm

amirm

Founder/Admin
Staff Member
CFO (Chief Fun Officer)
Joined
Feb 13, 2016
Messages
44,699
Likes
241,307
Location
Seattle Area
Why isn't your ML close at hand so that you can save your back dragging amps up and down the stairs.
All three of my ML amps are over 100 pounds each. They have literally glued themselves to the floor! I can't even slide them on the floor let alone get them to where my measurement system is. They are also more powerful than what P12 can feed.
 

Ingenieur

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Apr 23, 2021
Messages
938
Likes
747
Location
PA
I fully acknowledge what your goal is here, but for me at least I would welcome a bit more in-depth tests to see if the technical aspects of the product are working, like the regulation for instance.

I think the word “review” might be a bit misleading. It suggests a full assessment, and that’s not what we get here. “Tests” would be more fitting in my mind. But that might just be me not having English as my first language. In any case, most by now know what to expect, some might want more… you can’t please everyone.
It is a review...in any language. We are dissecting into minutia.

If it produced less power that tells you 2 things:
Either less V or I. Or both, decrease.
We can estimate how much
P ~ V^2 or I^2 and we know Z
So V or I = sqrt(P ratio)
Sqrt(371/343) ~ 4% loss
Not bad considering the output Z ratio


I assume only 1 channel was driven, likely purely R, so around 500 VA.
The unit is rated 1500. He actually went easy on it. On top of it they were bursts, not steady state.
My question, how bad is it at 1500 VA?

You have to understand the data and interpret it. It's all there for a device whose sole purpose is to convey regulated and reconstituted power.
 
Last edited:

voodooless

Grand Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jun 16, 2020
Messages
10,406
Likes
18,375
Location
Netherlands
It is a review...in any language. We are dissecting into minutia.
I disagree completely. These words matter. They setup a perception at the reader. Something called a “review” usually does not focus on just a single aspect. They are usually comprehensive.

Don’t get me wrong here. By now, I know what to expect and in most cases I’m totally okay with that. It’s just that I’m also often curious for more.
I assume only 1 channel was driven, likely purely R, so around 500 VA.
I actually assumed 2 channels driven.
The unit is rated 1500. He actually went easy on it. On top of it they were bursts, not steady state.
My question, how bad is it at 1500 VA?
Spec says 1000VA for the US version. With two channels driven, you’d get there already.
 

MerlinGS

Active Member
Forum Donor
Joined
Dec 28, 2016
Messages
132
Likes
275
I have noticed certain questions being raised as to the scientific nature (or lack thereof) of this review. The claim seemed a little spurious, but I figured I would at least examine it.

PS Audio's claim regarding this product: "In the process of regeneration any problems on your power line such as low voltage, distorted waveforms, sagging power and noise are eliminated. The results are both audibly and visually stunning when powering either audio or video products."

Thus, the theory being advanced by PS Audio is that AC power "regeneration" addressees "problems" in one's power line and eliminates issues with low voltage, distorted waveforms, sagging power and noise. These improvements will lead to : "audibly and visually stunning when powering either audio or video products."..."greatly improved performance and safety from just plugging into the wall socket and far better dynamics, bass and a much bigger, open soundstage"

So, by using PS Audio's regenerating AC power unit one will improve audio and video products in an "audibly and visually stunning" fashion, through "greatly improved performance... and far better dynamics, bass and a much bigger, open soundstage."

The theory provides simple enough hypothesis to test. Many of the test limitations raised by @restorer-john and @KSTR are irrelevant because they do not address the theory as presented by PS Audio in any apparent fashion; i.e. power regenration dramatically improves "dynamics, bass and a much bigger, open soundstage." Additionally, their proposed tests give absolutely no insight as to whether the P12 makes visually stunnnig improvements to video products. To evaluate the validity of the theory all one has to do test a hypothesis relating to the claim; i.e. a simple hypothesis would test the outcomes/benefits (as defined by the theory) of using the product.

In the case of video products, there are a number of objective tests that can be performed with a projector or monitor to determine if there measurable improvements. PS Audio provides absolutely no data to support the claim despite the fact that it would be fairly simple to test such video products. @amirm did not test for video improvements, but that is to be expected, this is an audio site.

This leaves us with the audio tests. Considering the hypothesis that will be tested to evaluate the theory, criticism of the review should focus on whether the tests performed by @amirm actually relate to audio performance and in what case can they be found wanting.

However, the criticisms instead have focused on whether the unit is able to address low voltage situations, sagging power, etc. That is not what the test is supposed to addressed. Again, the theory is regeneration of AC power will lead to "dynamics, bass and a much bigger, open soundstage." Nothing in the tests suggests this is the case, and nothing about @restorer-john and @KSTR (among others) criticisms actually challenges these facts. The only claim is that one can contrive an incredibly poor AC power situation in which these unit can improve one's audio performance, but that is not what the theory states. PS Audio's claim of improved performance (and theory) is for general application, and the units are marketed as such; i.e. the AC power regenerators are not marketed to those extremely rare situation where this unit might improve matters (at an excessive price, since a solution can be had for 1/5 the cost).

In the context of the limited purpose of the review (to evaluate PS Audio's theory on AC power regeneration and audio/video improvements), the review does what it seeks out to do in a fairly scientific fashions (well, as scientific as one can expect considering the circumstances). The review is not contrived or rigged, it merely evaluates the theory. If you feel there are circumstances under which power regeneration can be of value, fair enough, but that does not invalidate the review (i.e. the assessment of PS Audio's claim/theory). On the contrary, arguably, advancing such critics are a rigged attempt at obfuscating the purpose of the test.

PS I am not suggesting @restorer-john and @KSTR are attempting to obfuscate, but the logic proposed can't help but obfuscate.
 

Ingenieur

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Apr 23, 2021
Messages
938
Likes
747
Location
PA
I disagree completely. These words matter. They setup a perception at the reader. Something called a “review” usually does not focus on just a single aspect. They are usually comprehensive.

Don’t get me wrong here. By now, I know what to expect and in most cases I’m totally okay with that. It’s just that I’m also often curious for more.

I actually assumed 2 channels driven.

Spec says 1000VA for the US version. With two channels driven, you’d get there already.
Your disagreement, no matter how complete, does not change the fact he reviewed the product. He has no control over how you perceive it.

Most would consider it a test, a review, an evaluation.
No need for a subjective review with a product like this.
 

voodooless

Grand Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jun 16, 2020
Messages
10,406
Likes
18,375
Location
Netherlands
Last edited:

Ingenieur

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Apr 23, 2021
Messages
938
Likes
747
Location
PA
So he drove it to 500 VA for 20 (1000 Hz) cycles, 20 mSec., barely 1 60 Hz power cycle.
50% of the continuous rating (<1/2 sec)
15% of the peak
And it still sagged
The wall supplied BETTER PQ imo


8F54F28E-AFEB-41C8-BAEF-29AE42528E78.jpeg
 
Top Bottom