PS Audio FR20 speakers - First impressions

[GXAlan]

Measurements of the FR30 show a rather odd high-frequency response, don't know whether this applies to the FR20 too:

PS Audio aspen FR30 Loudspeaker Lab Report

Lab Report Honestly rated at 88dB, the FR30's sensitivity is also influenced by the Near/Far setting of the two 64mm planar tweeters. Set to 'Far' the sensitivity reaches 88.2dB/1kHz and 88.5dB (500Hz-8kHz), enhanced by the presence band boost of the tweeters [see Graph 1], prior to their peak...

www.hifinews.com

HifiNews is tricky.

Look at their JBL 4349 measurements

JBL 4349 Loudspeaker Lab Report

Lab Report Where you sit may prove vital in getting the very best from JBL's 4349. Avoid the temptation to 'look' directly into the throat of the horn for there's a substantial –14dB notch at the ~1.4kHz crossover [dashed trace, Graph 1].

www.hifinews.com

Vs @amirm ‘s proven Klippel NFS measurements

JBL 4349 Review (Studio Monitor Speaker)

This is a review and detailed measurements of the JBL 4349 2-way Studio Monitor (passive). All of you were too cheap to buy one so I had to do it myself. Out of my own money no less! Luckily I got a discount from the retail cost of US $7,500 for a pair. Note: our company, Madrona Digital...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[kemmler3D]

I would say you are at least as qualfied to review them as anyone in the hifi press.

Talk about a back-handed compliment, lol

 

[Tobylq]

Thanks everyone for your comments. I'll do my best to answer your questions:

*** I'm just amused it took you 928 days to make your first post after registering! -> I actually tried to register to do this post, didn't remember I had an account already. Like my Momma said not to open my mouth unless I have something constructive to say ! I rarely post but do read often and appreciate the user knowledge base here, always leaning something, and I thank everyone that contributes specially Mr. Amirm.

*** That’s nice, but I thought this was a thread about the speakers, not an ad for the company. -> Sorry, not my intention, just stating my personal experience.

*** No offence to you or your purchase. But we’re you not concerned at all with PS Audio’s dubious claims with other products they market? -> I hear you. This is a tricky one.
I am an old electronics engineer still working full time. With previous employers I had the opportunity to work for several customers in the audio industry.
They are "different" for sure. It's all about the "sound" ! As an engineer I just had to give them the benefit of the doubt but it was very hard. Were they selling snake oil?
Maybe but I am not 100% sure in that sense because they really believed in this stuff. And yes, I don't buy $500 cables!

Honestly my main concern was the fact PS Audio is not a speaker manufacturing company, wondering if in fact they could design and manufacture a novel speaker that could compete in 2023. Ultimately the 30 day no-risk trial did it for me, they paid for freight and gave me full retail price credit for my old speakers and old amp.
I feel I am getting excellent value for my money.

 

[yewneek]

Burn in (or more accurately break-in) is a real thing with speakers (it isn't with amplifiers or other components). Not sure how ohm's law is relevant. Speaker drivers are made of material that is initially stiff when brand new and which softens with regular use.

The BS around break-in is how long it takes. It only takes a few hours of constant playback - a few days of normal use - to soften up most speaker material to the point where the sound profile of the speakers has stabilized. Companies that say you need 50 or 100 or 1000 hours of break in for speakers to sound their best are just trying to swindle you into keeping the speakers past the point of no return.

Evidence, rather than, it is because I say it is. Diagram to help.

 

[GXAlan]

Personally, I don’t think Paul McGowan is intended to deceive anyone. He believes what he says. He just happens to be on YouTube but what he says is no different that what the writers at Stereophile or other YouTube personalities state. If anything, he is the most transparent about his conflict of interest.

The heritage of Paul’s speakers goes back to pre-Harman Infinity.

@Chris Brunhaver is the brain behind the these new speakers, and he has been an active participant here.

 

[617]

@Tobylq if you really loved us you'd crate one back up and send it to Amir

 

[MAB]

Thanks everyone for your comments. I'll do my best to answer your questions:

*** I'm just amused it took you 928 days to make your first post after registering! -> I actually tried to register to do this post, didn't remember I had an account already. Like my Momma said not to open my mouth unless I have something constructive to say ! I rarely post but do read often and appreciate the user knowledge base here, always leaning something, and I thank everyone that contributes specially Mr. Amirm.

*** That’s nice, but I thought this was a thread about the speakers, not an ad for the company. -> Sorry, not my intention, just stating my personal experience.

*** No offence to you or your purchase. But we’re you not concerned at all with PS Audio’s dubious claims with other products they market? -> I hear you. This is a tricky one.
I am an old electronics engineer still working full time. With previous employers I had the opportunity to work for several customers in the audio industry.
They are "different" for sure. It's all about the "sound" ! As an engineer I just had to give them the benefit of the doubt but it was very hard. Were they selling snake oil?
Maybe but I am not 100% sure in that sense because they really believed in this stuff. And yes, I don't buy $500 cables!

Honestly my main concern was the fact PS Audio is not a speaker manufacturing company, wondering if in fact they could design and manufacture a novel speaker that could compete in 2023. Ultimately the 30 day no-risk trial did it for me, they paid for freight and gave me full retail price credit for my old speakers and old amp.
I feel I am getting excellent value for my money.

I hope you love them.
Your old NHT 3.3 are a great speaker too.
It would be good to get some measurements, not sure how comfortable you are with a mic and REW. There are lots of tutorials here to support you.
DSP will likely help you improve the speakers in your room.

 

[YSC]

@Tobylq if you really loved us you'd crate one back up and send it to Amir

and breaking Amir's back in the process? you better send along with some body builder

 

[charleski]

HifiNews is tricky.

Look at their JBL 4349 measurements

JBL 4349 Loudspeaker Lab Report

Lab Report Where you sit may prove vital in getting the very best from JBL's 4349. Avoid the temptation to 'look' directly into the throat of the horn for there's a substantial –14dB notch at the ~1.4kHz crossover [dashed trace, Graph 1].

www.hifinews.com

Vs @amirm ‘s proven Klippel NFS measurements

JBL 4349 Review (Studio Monitor Speaker)

This is a review and detailed measurements of the JBL 4349 2-way Studio Monitor (passive). All of you were too cheap to buy one so I had to do it myself. Out of my own money no less! Luckily I got a discount from the retail cost of US $7,500 for a pair. Note: our company, Madrona Digital...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Miller’s test are a lot less sophisticated but if you take the scaling into account the two are broadly similar and show the same problem with the crossover to the horn.

 

[Chris Brunhaver]

Glad you're enjoying your speakers. Hifi is a great joy, and speakers which project an unwavering center image are wonderful, and the PS Audio speakers certainly look the part.

I think the frustration people have with PS Audio is that they do misrepresent the performance of some of their products by misusing technical concepts, but my understanding is that these speakers were designed by a completely separate group. They were designed and marketed as a traditional high end hifi speaker, driven by that kind of understanding of what a speaker should do, and chiefly guided by listening. Although we have not seen measurements of these speakers, the designer has discussed them here and his openness about his design should be commended.

I would like to correct you on one small point. You say you're unqualified to review these speakers. I would say you are at least as qualfied to review them as anyone in the hifi press.

Very happy to hear that a big smile and dancing in the seat were the initial reaction to a fist listen!

While Paul can be a little polarizing in his views or editorial on various subjects, that's part the editorial Q&A on Youtube format (to answer questions and take a sometimes controversial stance to get people talking). As you mention, he doesn't engineer the products and I lead do the speaker design stuff at PS (with a little help from our mechanical engineer and project management staff).

The one thing I wanted to try to clarify is that, I wouldn't call my engineering effort "chiefly guided by listening". I do FEA sims and tons of driver measurements in developing the transducers and thousands of system measurements (looking at driver and polar measurements) to develop a crossover before the final listening and tweaking. As a brand, we haven't used measurements as marketing but it's not to say that they aren't essential in engineering and you can't develop a low distortion woofer just by ear. However, every speaker deviates from the ideal in some ways and trying to "optimize the compromises" by listening and understanding the sonic impact of various things you see in the measurements (or don't see) is done by even the most objective companies and I think that practice is very important.

As far as the FR30 goes, yes, the pilot run of the first few aspen FR30 (sent to reviewers and international distributors) had a slightly peakier response (though smoother looking than the HFN review when you spatially average it into a listening window response and look at a 20-30 kHz bandwidth etc.). We have improved this in our driver manufacturing and QC (from pilot to our first production) and working on it over the last year and have make a minor change to the wool felt we're using inside the tweeter. I am now at a point where I'm even happier about the sound and we have a simpler faceplate and crossover in our new small tower (aspen FR10) that I think works even better in some ways.

Unfortunately, while the FR20 were recently reviewed in HiFiNews, the pair that was measured had tweeters that we damaged in shipping and aren't representative of the correct performance. We discovered that in air shipping the tweeters, when their rear chamber had an excellent rear seal, the diaphragm would be pressed outwards (like a bag of chips at high altitude) and could get stuck there. We have since modified the design with a small pressure equalization hole in the rear chamber and taken care of any units affected in as proactive a way as we can. QC and unforeseen circumstances (like a rare product failure from extreme changes in pressure) can occasionally pop up but it's more about the company's response and commitment to customer and quality control and the sustaining engineer and QC work never ends.

 

[GXAlan]

Very happy to hear that a big smile and dancing in the seat were the initial reaction to a first listen!

Is there any chance you can send a unit to Amir? One of the neat things is that you can work WITH Amir to improve the measurements before they are published when the manufacturer works with him in advance?

 

[617]

Very happy to hear that a big smile and dancing in the seat were the initial reaction to a fist listen!

While Paul can be a little polarizing in his views or editorial on various subjects, that's part the editorial Q&A on Youtube format (to answer questions and take a sometimes controversial stance to get people talking). As you mention, he doesn't engineer the products and I lead do the speaker design stuff at PS (with a little help from our mechanical engineer and project management staff).

The one thing I wanted to try to clarify is that, I wouldn't call my engineering effort "chiefly guided by listening". I do FEA sims and tons of driver measurements in developing the transducers and thousands of system measurements (looking at driver and polar measurements) to develop a crossover before the final listening and tweaking. As a brand, we haven't used measurements as marketing but it's not to say that they aren't essential in engineering and you can't develop a low distortion woofer just by ear. However, every speaker deviates from the ideal in some ways and trying to "optimize the compromises" by listening and understanding the sonic impact of various things you see in the measurements (or don't see) is done by even the most objective companies and I think that practice is very important.

As far as the FR30 goes, yes, the pilot run of the first few aspen FR30 (sent to reviewers and international distributors) had a slightly peakier response (though smoother looking than the HFN review when you spatially average it into a listening window response and look at a 20-30 kHz bandwidth etc.). We have improved this in our driver manufacturing and QC (from pilot to our first production) and working on it over the last year and have make a minor change to the wool felt we're using inside the tweeter. I am now at a point where I'm even happier about the sound and we have a simpler faceplate and crossover in our new small tower (aspen FR10) that I think works even better in some ways.

Unfortunately, while the FR20 were recently reviewed in HiFiNews, the pair that was measured had tweeters that we damaged in shipping and aren't representative of the correct performance. We discovered that in air shipping the tweeters, when their rear chamber had an excellent rear seal, the diaphragm would be pressed outwards (like a bag of chips at high altitude) and could get stuck there. We have since modified the design with a small pressure equalization hole in the rear chamber and taken care of any units affected in as proactive a way as we can. QC and unforeseen circumstances (like a rare product failure from extreme changes in pressure) can occasionally pop up but it's more about the company's response and commitment to customer and quality control and the sustaining engineer and QC work never ends.

Apologies for mischaracterizing your design process. I think it is fair to say you have a different design approach than say, Genelec, which reflects the market you are trying to break into.

Did you ever consider loading the planar mid in an open back transmission line?

 

[YSC]

Very happy to hear that a big smile and dancing in the seat were the initial reaction to a fist listen!

While Paul can be a little polarizing in his views or editorial on various subjects, that's part the editorial Q&A on Youtube format (to answer questions and take a sometimes controversial stance to get people talking). As you mention, he doesn't engineer the products and I lead do the speaker design stuff at PS (with a little help from our mechanical engineer and project management staff).

The one thing I wanted to try to clarify is that, I wouldn't call my engineering effort "chiefly guided by listening". I do FEA sims and tons of driver measurements in developing the transducers and thousands of system measurements (looking at driver and polar measurements) to develop a crossover before the final listening and tweaking. As a brand, we haven't used measurements as marketing but it's not to say that they aren't essential in engineering and you can't develop a low distortion woofer just by ear. However, every speaker deviates from the ideal in some ways and trying to "optimize the compromises" by listening and understanding the sonic impact of various things you see in the measurements (or don't see) is done by even the most objective companies and I think that practice is very important.

As far as the FR30 goes, yes, the pilot run of the first few aspen FR30 (sent to reviewers and international distributors) had a slightly peakier response (though smoother looking than the HFN review when you spatially average it into a listening window response and look at a 20-30 kHz bandwidth etc.). We have improved this in our driver manufacturing and QC (from pilot to our first production) and working on it over the last year and have make a minor change to the wool felt we're using inside the tweeter. I am now at a point where I'm even happier about the sound and we have a simpler faceplate and crossover in our new small tower (aspen FR10) that I think works even better in some ways.

Unfortunately, while the FR20 were recently reviewed in HiFiNews, the pair that was measured had tweeters that we damaged in shipping and aren't representative of the correct performance. We discovered that in air shipping the tweeters, when their rear chamber had an excellent rear seal, the diaphragm would be pressed outwards (like a bag of chips at high altitude) and could get stuck there. We have since modified the design with a small pressure equalization hole in the rear chamber and taken care of any units affected in as proactive a way as we can. QC and unforeseen circumstances (like a rare product failure from extreme changes in pressure) can occasionally pop up but it's more about the company's response and commitment to customer and quality control and the sustaining engineer and QC work never ends.

It would be interesting to see the real measured performance of the speaker then, hope it's as good as it's look

 

[Deleted member 48726]

Evidence, rather than, it is because I say it is. Diagram to help.

There's a long thread about it. Go continue there if you think you have something to add. -Doesn't look like it though.

Don't pick fights and side track this thread.

 

[yewneek]

There's a long thread about it. Go continue there if you think you have something to add. -Doesn't look like it though.

Don't pick fights and side track this thread.

Upon what authority do you assert your daddy voice?

 

[Deleted member 48726]

Upon what authority do you assert your daddy voice?

Sound reasoning. -Now go clean your room, it's a mess!

 

[ErVikingo]

Views here are polarized against PS, I should say against Paul. As soon as i saw the thread title i thought, "oh junk, this is going to be interesting".

Whilst i do not own any PS Audio product, I have had a wonderful experience with Paul and @Chris Brunhaver when I have asked question regarding my speakers (IRS Beta). They have been very giving and open. Paul guided me on my quest to identify an issue with my crossovers. I enjoy Paul's videos a lot as he explains many things some of us think we know. I also enjoy their releases under Octave Records. I wish I had had the opportunity to visit music room one to experience his IRS V and compare vs my friend's pair which are bone stock.

I have listened to the FR30 and they are (to my non reviewer ears) quite spectacular. I have been around the block and have listened to many old school classics (starting at home with AR3a to DQ10) to mega buck Magico, Credo, MBL, Genesis, Wilson (had some) and my neighbor has the crazy WAMM Master (my old speakers are his surrounds!), have listened to Genelec, I own Aerial, Mirage and others.

In any case, I would love to read about the OP's experiences with them the same I like reading about any other speaker or component. As such, I would appreciate if we don't take this thread down the abyss.

Dad had a great take on audio, listen to the equipment when you are setting it up, after that just listen to the music. I'm reminded of @amirm review of the Ikea speakers "Objective measurements don't fully support my highest honors but my listening test results do. So it is my pleasure to give a strong recommend to Ikea SYMFONISK picture frame speaker by Sonos."

Hope the OP loves the way his music sounds with his system. Kudos to him for chasing after his dream. I hope to try a pair at home one day.

 

[617]

Views here are polarized against PS, I should say against Paul. As soon as i saw the thread title i thought, "oh junk, this is going to be interesting".

Whilst i do not own any PS Audio product, I have had a wonderful experience with Paul and @Chris Brunhaver when I have asked question regarding my speakers (IRS Beta). They have been very giving and open. Paul guided me on my quest to identify an issue with my crossovers. I enjoy Paul's videos a lot as he explains many things some of us think we know. I also enjoy their releases under Octave Records. I wish I had had the opportunity to visit music room one to experience his IRS V and compare vs my friend's pair which are bone stock.

I have listened to the FR30 and they are (to my non reviewer ears) quite spectacular. I have been around the block and have listened to many old school classics (starting at home with AR3a to DQ10) to mega buck Magico, Credo, MBL, Genesis, Wilson (had some) and my neighbor has the crazy WAMM Master (my old speakers are his surrounds!), have listened to Genelec, I own Aerial, Mirage and others.

In any case, I would love to read about the OP's experiences with them the same I like reading about any other speaker or component. As such, I would appreciate if we don't take this thread down the abyss.

Dad had a great take on audio, listen to the equipment when you are setting it up, after that just listen to the music. I'm reminded of @amirm review of the Ikea speakers "Objective measurements don't fully support my highest honors but my listening test results do. So it is my pleasure to give a strong recommend to Ikea SYMFONISK picture frame speaker by Sonos."

Hope the OP loves the way his music sounds with his system. Kudos to him for chasing after his dream. I hope to try a pair at home one day.

How would you describe the sound of the DQ10?

 

[ErVikingo]

How would you describe the sound of the DQ10?

We shouldn't digress from the topic but I'll respond, If other questions, you should create a new thread.

They looked great, impressive like nothing else back then (ahem except for the Quads which its hard to think they were not copied). They were airy, open and detailed. Needed additional bass. I remember listening to SOTA back then when dad was auditioning them at his dedicate room (I was 10 when dad got his) the 901 (I think they caused my tinnitus ) , Whaferdale Heritage?, JBL 100, Klipsch Forte, the big Altecs with horns and a pair of Magnepans. They all had (IMHO except for the 901) something special but the DQ-10's were clear and created a huge soundstage, the first time I experienced disappearing speakers.

5-way open baffle (except for the woofers) that was state of the art. Dad added the stands which improved the sound. Had to replace crossovers a couple of times since they would melt and ooze out wax, woofer surrounds would disintegrate. He ended up replacing them with Mirage since he was hooked into the open baffle or dipole soundstage. Years later I learned that dad was sold 2 left speakers...

For the time I think they were unbeatable especially for the price. When I listen to a pair these days (last I listened to were in Napa) they do not compare to current offerings.

I wish I had kept them. My brother took them and butcher them with changed drivers and ended up seriously damaged after a serious hurricane.

 

[yewneek]

Sound reasoning. -Now go clean your room, it's a mess!

How would daddy like me to clean?