PrimaLuna Dialogue Three Preamp Review

[EJ3]

This may not be a good analogy, but let's give it a shot. With sports cars, you have the latest and high performing dual clutch transmission vs. stick shift manual. In terms of performance and technology, you simply cannot compare stick shift with dual clutch. Dual clutch will eat stick shift up for lunch.

But yet, there is a small group of people who wants stick shift to be saved. The Toyota Supra gave in to such demands and designed a stick shift transmission for an relatively older Supra model that's already in production.

This is the case with tube (and I also argue vinyl), it is OK to still like older and inferior technologies. So long, you don't make any ridiculous claims of how tube sounds better than solid state or vinyl sounds better than digital.

This PrimaLuna is honest with it's specs, it is made for that group of people who wants and appreciate the flaws of tube. And for tube standards, it seems to be OK. As such, I would give this amp a pass.

It's because many people (I am one of them) find the stick shift is FUN to drive. Even in traffic.

 

[EJ3]

It's obvious. Don't take it as an offense, but only those who have always driven automatic cars don't understand the total difference in feeling with a manual gearbox car. Driving is not only changing from one gear to another in the shortest possible time on a straight line, it is also being able to feel and fully manage the relationship with the engine, having the clutch under your foot and being able to control the rpm and how it affects traction, climbing a series of tight hairpin bends and managing braking and re-acceleration just and exactly as YOU want, using engine braking without breaking down the car and without a sophisticated electronic card having to do it for you. Using a manual gearbox is the essence of sporty driving, even if it doesn't perform as well as a sports automatic, but this is difficult for those who have only ever used an automatic gearbox to understand. (it's also incredibly funnier)

Sounds exactly like how us American's (I was conceived in America, born in Salzburg, & back in America when I was 3 months old) use manual transmissions.
I worked for the Porsche Factory, drove (in & around Stuttgart) the 43rd 959 built. Most of the people that I graduated high school with (1975) are adept with manual transmissions.
It is unfortunate that only about 6% of the cars being built currently have a manual.
But it is has become a leading anti-theft device to have.

 

[CleanSound]

It's because many people (I am one of them) find the stick shift is FUN to drive. Even in traffic.

Yes, you validated my point. Stick cannot compare with DCT in performance, just like tube can't compare with solid state. But there are still people want stick just like there are still people who want tubes.

 

[JSmith]

I want "stick" (we call that manual here)... but I don't want tubes anymore.



JSmith

 

[EJ3]

Yes, I get all that. That's why I chose it, even though it is going to be slower in almost any metric. Maybe we are somehow talking past each other.

A DCT to me is for a race car. A stick is for a sports car.

An automatic is for my mother, even though she still likes to drive a stick from time to time.

My mother bought a 1971 Super Beetle new when they came out in 1971 (4 speed stick shift) with Air Conditioning in Germany & we brought it to the USA after driving it around Europe for about 3 months. I immediately modified the 48 HP engine for her to put out about 80 HP.
This was her commuter car on a 28 mile each way commute for 30 years.
During that time, I had eventually modded it up to 105 HP (twin Weber 40 IDF carbs & many other mods).
It also ended up with a Gene Berg 5 speed transaxle.
(geared for acceleration with a 3.88 final drive & stock overdrive in the 5th gear position, as you don't want to go more than 110 MPH without some aero mods in a stock bodied Beetle or Super Beetle, lest you like getting airborne, turning sideways & doing barrel rolls).
With that a Teflon coated ball Gene Berg shifter was installed, a 3 puck ceramic/sintered copper clutch,
255/60 R15 BFG tires on Centerline rims on the back & 185/65 R 15 Pirelli's on Centerlines on the front,
KYB struts up front & KYB shocks in the back,
nice anti sway bars all the way around & lowered 1 & 1/2 inches (via lowering spindles in the front) for increased cornering.
My mother managed to both out accelerate & out corner a number of Porsches, BMW's, Camaro's, Firebirds & such.
Many could out run her but usually only by exceeding 88 MPH (when the not so good aero catches up to the flat windowed Beetles & Super Beetles).
I always wonder how many went home & bragged that they had a hell of a time beating some middle aged woman in a VW Beetle? Not many, I bet.
She is 89 now & drives a 2004 Mercedes E 320 with a 4Matic.
Rowing the gears: allows for much finesse when you know how to do it. Whether your going straight, cornering or going up & down curvy hilly roads.

 

[wwenze]

Funny how some people embrace older inferior technology as superior. At some point I am sure someone will claim Edison cylinder records are the way to go. Probably a "warmer" sound.

One guy told me vinyl is better because no DAC conversion

My response: "Pffft... You listen to electronically-amplfied audio?"

 

[EJ3]

Yes, you validated my point. Stick cannot compare with DCT in performance, just like tube can't compare with solid state. But there are still people want stick just like there are still people who want tubes.

I have never thought "It would be fun to have a tube amp" though.
But my point is that manual shift transmissions: they are FUN to drive.
And, unless we are driving open wheel cars, if you beat me around a track, in a similar road car to car to mine, it wont be because you are using a DCT.
It will be because you are a more skilled driver or more in tune with your setup.

 

[CleanSound]

I have never thought "It would be fun to have a tube amp" though.
But my point is that manual shift transmissions: they are FUN to drive.

Fun is experience. People who like tube (and vinyl) will tell you it's the experience. Seeing and touching the tubes, having it glow, tube rolling, blah, blah, blah.

And, unless we are driving open wheel cars, if you beat me around a track, in a similar road car to car to mine, it wont be because you are using a DCT.
It will be because you are a more skilled driver or more in tune with your setup.

Really? That is a bold statement.

 

[EJ3]

Fun is experience. People who like tube (and vinyl) will tell you it's the experience. Seeing and touching the tubes, having it glow, tube rolling, blah, blah, blah.


Really? That is a bold statement.

For road legal cars with similar capabilities, I think not.
Perhaps you are unfamiliar with these:

Liberty’s Clutchless Equalizer Transmissions​

Through years of research and development, we have continued to perfect the ultimate clutchless transmission.
Because the Equalizer has two cluster shafts instead of one, the power coming into the transmission is split so that each cluster handles half the load. Since each gear on the mainshaft has twice the number of teeth in action coupled with six rugged ball bearings to handle all the loads, the end result is higher torque capacity.
Due to the dual countershaft design of the Equalizer, the rotating assembly is able to be lightened beyond the limits that a single cluster design transmission is restricted to, making it lighter than most of our competitor’s transmissions.
The power flow through the Equalizer is never interrupted between gear changes. As you shift to each succeeding gear, the previous gear is overridden and automatically kicks out.

 

[EJ3]

I wanted to point out that there are additional options to this transmission to make it even faster than shifting by manually changing gears:

• Optional Microswitch Package
• Optional Air Shifter
• Optional Liberty’s ECU Electric over Pneumatic Shifter
  
  Because the original manual transmission in my car could only handle 370 lb ft. of torque (and I broke it twice before finding out that it was only rated for 370 lb ft. of torque (cost cutting bean counters are likely the fault) and that it was fine as long as you had a setup that allowed your tires to spin, thus unloading the transmission.
  But once you had made adjustments of the suspension so that the tires gripped instead of spinning, the original transmission broke (ripping 2 teeth off of first gear the 6th time power was applied hard) so I rebuilt it (yes, me, myself).
  The rebuild lasted 5 times of full power being applied and the 6th time it shattered the cluster gear assembly.
  So I changed to a transmission that would handle the 450 or so LB FT. of torque that I am making.
  

 

[EJ3]

Fun is experience. People who like tube (and vinyl) will tell you it's the experience. Seeing and touching the tubes, having it glow, tube rolling, blah, blah, blah.


Really? That is a bold statement.

By the way, if you are looking for the worlds fastest shifting manual transmission (which also happens to be an automatic [it's both]) here it is:

Has Koenigsegg Made The World's Fastest Shifting Transmission?​

 

[Blumlein 88]

I wanted to point out that there are additional options to this transmission to make it even faster than shifting by manually changing gears:

• Optional Microswitch Package
• Optional Air Shifter
• Optional Liberty’s ECU Electric over Pneumatic Shifter
  
  I do not "posture".
  I do, however, educate & inform.
  & that is what I am doing, showing that DCT is not the only way:
  It meets the requirement of being a manual transmission.
  He did not specify that it had to be a transmission that came with the car.
  In that case, I would be out.
  Because the original manual transmission in my car could only handle 370 lb ft. of torque (and I broke it twice before finding out that it was only rated for 370 lb ft. of torque (cost cutting bean counters are likely the fault) and that it was fine as long as you had a setup that allowed your tires to spin, thus unloading the transmission.
  But once you had made adjustments of the suspension so that the tires gripped instead of spinning, the original transmission broke (ripping 2 teeth off of first gear the 6th time power was applied hard) so I rebuilt it (yes, me, myself).
  The rebuild lasted 5 times of full power being applied and the 6th time it shattered the cluster gear assembly.
  So I changed to a transmission that would handle the 450 or so LB FT. of torque that I am making.
  
  Posturing? You, with all due respect, are funny as hell. I have never "postured" in my life.
  Like I said:
• "If he beats me it's because he is better skilled".
  
  I did not say that he could not beat me.
  
  There are many that are more skilled than me.
  
  In what way is that posturing?
  
  You are quite intelligent, usually.
  In this case, I think that you are reading into things something that is not there.
  
  My main point was to let it be known that a DCT is not the only quick shifting manual transmission.
• 
  
• And that this one takes the opposite tact, instead of using 2 clutches and being computer controlled,
  This on uses a clutch only for starting off and is fully manual.
• 
  I believe that when you posses knowledge about things, that others may not have, that you should spread the knowledge around.
  In the general interest of not letting others remain ignorant of the choices available.
  I am guessing that he either doesn't know about these transmissions or they are not made wherever he is from.
• 
  
• Surely, you acting like a buffoon about it is:
• 
  
• Unbecoming of someone with your general intellect.

I deleted the post prior to seeing your reply as it was in poor taste.

 

[mmuetst]

Nice to read every time what the reasons are for @amirm not to do a subjective listening test. Maybe he didn't have time or there was some other reason. I know he doesn't end every review with a subjective listening test. Whether such a test makes sense, in your eyes not, I do like to read what his experience is like. Let's just say it's part of the hobby. I know @amirm doesn't always have time for this part and of course his life consists more of just this forum. But hey, you can always ask questions.

 

[DSJR]

What's the hobby? Listening to the gear or listening to the music as truthfully as possibe, thereby all but rejecting sub par products as this one under review now is in the scheme of things?

 

[Waxx]

What's the hobby? Listening to the gear or listening to the music as truthfully as possibe, thereby all but rejecting sub par products as this one under review now is in the scheme of things?

The hobby is enjoying the music, not listening to gear and wondering if it's true to the source because it isn't. It's processed a lot in the recording, mixing and mastering. And a lot of music is not even played live, but electronic programmed, sampled, or recorded in small pieces, instrument by instrument.

 

[Mart68]

The hobby is enjoying the music, not listening to gear and wondering if it's true to the source because it isn't. It's processed a lot in the recording, mixing and mastering. And a lot of music is not even played live, but electronic programmed, sampled, or recorded in small pieces, instrument by instrument.

The source is the recorded signal not what happened in the studio, and as you say a lot of the time there is no live performance to reference.

if a device is not accurate - or close to accurate - to the recorded signal it is not 'High Fidelity'. These days there is no excuse for electronic components not to be 'Absolute Fidelity'. That is, they do not modify the incoming signal in any audible way.

This is why the oft asked question 'How does it sound' makes no sense. If it has it's own sound characteristics that it imposes on the signal, then it's fallen right out of the gate.

 

[ocinn]

This is a funny review to see as I was actually loaned one of these awhile back when I was a teenager newbie-audiophile (this was before I became invested in objective analysis or devoted myself to engineering fields), by a much older friend of mine who bought it broken (failed solder joint on output jacks) for cheap and repaired it, to flip it for a profit.

Just dug up my password and looked thru my AOL (nostalgia!!) email account and:

I gave it back to him within a couple days, because apparently it sounded audibly awful in comparison to my trusty APT Holman (which I still have on the floor of my closet to this day).

Here’s the direct quote from somewhat subjectivist 16yo me:

“There is a clear vagueness to everything. Imaging is blurred and diffuse, bass is loose and boomy, and the upper mids and highs sound messy and poorly defined. It is almost like I’m listening to a used [vinyl] record even though I am using the player. Switched back [to my Holman] and the difference is night and day”

For context: Player = CDs played thru a loaned Benchmark DAC1 (yes, I guess I am relatively young for this forum, haha)

Thanks Amir for the review. Would love to see an IMD graph for this as well.

 

[JRG]

It's because many people (I am one of them) find the stick shift is FUN to drive. Even in traffic.

Exactly. As simple as that.
At least in Europe, the VAST majority of cars were manual until a few years ago. And now they are automatic mainly because it is more convenient with hybrid engines.
This is a side effect of the EU legislation, which promotes (and will soon force) ECO vehicles (hybrid and electric).

A manual car makes you feel more in tune with the driving. It forces you to think about when to change gear, to choose the most appropriate rpm at any given moment, to do toe-heel. And those things, who likes to drive, likes a lot.
Of course, those who understand the car as a washing machine (a transport appliance), all this is irrelevant and annoying for them.
An automatic car maybe more effective, but it erases some of the driving experience. Especially in sport driving.

And something similar happens with most electric steering, which erases "feeling what the wheels do" on the steering wheel. The grip margin, feeling the understeer through the steering wheel rim,... and that the driving feel resembles that of a PlayStation steering wheel.
In the U.S. the concept of driving is different due to a road network that favors looooong straights over curves and mountain passes.. And that's why most cars have always been automatic.

Sorry for the offtopic.

 

[Owl]

I used both of mine just yesterday, truck with manual transmission and record player. A fair comparison, but not completely accurate. I don't know anybody who wants to listen to inferior equipment, but the personal driving experience is more interactive, involving more than just ears. Is there a preference in sound absolutely?, I wish my records sounded as good as my CD's, but for those of us that grew up with records, the nostalgia takes over.

 

[CleanSound]

By the way, if you are looking for the worlds fastest shifting manual transmission (which also happens to be an automatic [it's both]) here it is:

Has Koenigsegg Made The World's Fastest Shifting Transmission?​

I think there needs to be some distinction on what is considered automatic. In the most traditional senses automatic is hydraulic and CVT. Multi-clutch is a form of automated manual.

This Koenigsegg is an automated manual, where you can choose to paddle shift, where you have full control of when the shift occurs. The traditional automatic does not give you that level of shift control, even with paddles on the steering wheel.