PrimaLuna Dialogue Three Preamp Review

[Prana Ferox]

You've got this reversed ...

Crap, you're right. I will edit it to hide my shame keep from misleading others

 

[Hipster Doofus]

I say again, that a lot of it is the visuals!!!

Audiophiles so often proudly display their sound system almost as a shrine, the gear neatly displayed between the speakers and often with foo cables fully on show and a hot seat or two in the perfect spot for them and select me-too friends to hear the gear, using the music as the means to do so...

My system

 

[JiiPee]

I like some tube amps for their design and vintage vibe, and some of them even perform well enough, even if they are far from sota today, and provide no objective technical advantage over properly designed and built ss amplifiers.

I strongly suspect that the warmer sound usually mentioned with tubes has more to do with the image than with the 2:n order harmonic distortion. One is expecting to hear warmer sound from tubes, and lo and behold, one hears warmer sound.

 

[CleanSound]

Driving is not only changing from one gear to another in the shortest possible time on a straight line, it is also being able to feel and fully manage the relationship with the engine, having the clutch under your foot and being able to control the rpm and how it affects traction, climbing a series of tight hairpin bends and managing braking and re-acceleration just and exactly as YOU want, using engine braking without breaking down the car and without a sophisticated electronic card having to do it for you. Using a manual gearbox is the essence of sporty driving, even if it doesn't perform as well as a sports automatic, but this is difficult for those who have only ever used an automatic gearbox to understand. (it's also incredibly funnier)

I have explained well what I mean, and why I consider the manual transmission to be the emblem of the sports car. If this is not understood, it is because there is a lack of a sports car culture base

Hey, relax. You're making it sound like manual doesn't exist in America and no Americans knows how to drive manual. Your statement was very insulting to a lot of people that is why they are replying.

So that you know, I started driving when I was 17, I learn in a manual, and only drove manual until I was 28. In those 11 years, I've own about 4 different manual cars and went auto crossing on weekends. I have essentially mastered the heal toe. From age 28 to about 10 years ago, I always had a manual car in addition to an automatic.

I don't know why you go around making assumptions about the manual car culture in America. Or if I personally ever drove manual. Do you know what happens when you ass-u-me?

Now about your point on manual car feels:

1) No one ever said anything against what you said. The only thing I and other have said is the comparison of DCT vs manual. Manual cannot perform as well as DCT, and it never will (period), (full stop) (scientific fact).

2) No one ever compared a manual with automatic. We are talking about DCT vs. Manual.

3) By you explaining why manual is fun and why it has the X factor (as if only Europeans know and Americans can't possibly know), you are confirming my comparison as to why people prefer tubes. And by me saying why people prefer tubes makes me the first person to say on this thread, that manual, like tubes, has the X factor.

 

[Kevinfc]

That’s one nice looking toaster oven.

 

[DanielT]

I like some tube amps for their design and vintage vibe, and some of them even perform well enough, even if they are far from sota today, and provide no objective technical advantage over properly designed and built ss amplifiers.

Like a vintage car. In terms of performance, any modern bog standard car can beat an old vintage car in a red light race, or speeding on a curvy road but that is not something a vintage car owner cares about. And in the same way as a vintage car, IF you are going to have a tube amp, you should have an old classic, like this one for example:

Does anyone have a Williamson tube amplifier?

Or have had, listened to a Williamson tube amplifier? Impression? Are they available? What can one, in reasonable condition, cost? I could really imagine having one. Mostly for its HiFi history. :) Not as a main amp but in some nice secondary system. Then together with a subwoofer + LP/HP...

audiosciencereview.com

Vintage car owners consider the fiddling of the car itself to be the fun. I think an owner of an old tube amp should have the same attitude.
Tube amp and DIY is a perfectly reasonable combination.By the way a DIY pre amp in need of Muntzing is also addressed in the thread I linked to.

Edit:
Another tip on a vintage tube amp that seems nice:

Here's how Fisher described the amp in its 1963 catalogue: “A new, fresh approach to the art of music reproduction and a concentrated 'no-compromise' design effort by world-famous Fisher Engineering Laboratories — these are the ingredients that have created the Fisher SA-1000. With 150 watts IHF [single 75-watt channel driven at 0.5% THD] and 130 watts R.M.S. Power [single 65.5-watt channel driven at clipping or 0.15% THD], this instrument possesses ample reserve capacity for all applications, including use in the largest auditoriums and theaters.” (The 58 watt spec is both channels driven at 0.11% THD.)

Classic Fisher Tube Amp Makes Rare Appearance

The Fisher SA-1000 tube amplifier is a sight to behold with its stately gold faceplate and signature tube cage. The amp also happens to be a legendary piece of audio gear that dates back to the early days of hi-fi. “It’s a big collector piece,” explains Fernando Zorrilla owner of New...

www.soundandvision.com

Perhaps unusual to see a Fisher SA-1000 for sale, but still.

 

[DualTriode]

Strongly disagree. This is 10-100x worse than any tube preamp design that a competent designer can do with no effort. Even a so-called "no feedback" design can do far, far better.

That's a common claim, but only true for some single-ended tube amps. Otherwise, the clipping behavior of most tube amp designs is abysmal- unless it is specifically avoided (and that's not easy), blocking distortion is universal.

Unlikely. The basic design here is flawed.

This performance is pretty much typical. The distortion profile is very much typical for 12AU7 preamp tubes. 6SN7's and other tubes can do better. This amplifier is built to a price point. SRPP 12AU7's can cancel out much or most 2HD's, Tuning the voltage and bias current may much reduce the 3rd HD

Sure spend more time and money you can do better. Carefully dial in the operating voltage and bias current and you can narrow in on the distortion sweet spot. Use shunt regulated power supplies you may clean up the power line harmonics.

One thing I would recommend that @amirm do is include a dBV noise measurement with a standard output voltage. It would be informative what the noise voltage is sent into the power amp and ultimately what idle voltage is being sent to the speakers. Much like the SINAD level at some standard output voltage is shown for in ear monitor application in the headphone amplifier reviews.

It has been years since I built a tube amplifier.

This is a SET 12B4A headphone amplifier with regulated power supplies.

Thanks DT

 

[TonyJZX]

first thing i did was look at the weight and dimensions and realised... this thing will heat up the room and run up your power bill... and all it does is switch stuff and add tube 'sound'

heaps of engineering for very little outcome... or even 'good outcome'

i remember back to basic electronics where they said preamps should be concerned with using as little current as its concerned with shifting small source signals.

In theory a company like Fosi can make a basic preamp than runs off a 12v 1amp wall wart or even a phone charger so this kind of thing with huge transformers really makes me wonder whats it all for?

 

[Talisman]

Hey, relax. You're making it sound like manual doesn't exist in America and no Americans knows how to drive manual. Your statement was very insulting to a lot of people that is why they are replying.

So that you know, I started driving when I was 17, I learn in a manual, and only drove manual until I was 28. In those 11 years, I've own about 4 different manual cars and went auto crossing on weekends. I have essentially mastered the heal toe. From age 28 to about 10 years ago, I always had a manual car in addition to an automatic.

I don't know why you go around making assumptions about the manual car culture in America. Or if I personally ever drove manual. Do you know what happens when you ass-u-me?

Now about your point on manual car feels:

1) No one ever said anything against what you said. The only thing I and other have said is the comparison of DCT vs manual. Manual cannot perform as well as DCT, and it never will (period), (full stop) (scientific fact).

2) No one ever compared a manual with automatic. We are talking about DCT vs. Manual.

3) By you explaining why manual is fun and why it has the X factor (as if only Europeans know and Americans can't possibly know), you are confirming my comparison as to why people prefer tubes. And by me saying why people prefer tubes makes me the first person to say on this thread, that manual, like tubes, has the X factor.

I don't think I offended anyone. (it also turned out that one of my messages had been deleted but I see them both, here I don't know....). Mine is a fact. No American should be offended, the Italian sports car tradition is with manual transmission, the American one is with automatic transmission. Whether there are Americans who drive the manual or Italians who drive the automatic makes no difference, it's a basic cultural issue, and IT'S NOT AN OFFENSE. Having clarified this point, let's go to the manual gearbox. With an automatic transmission, you simply don't have the total and absolute control over the engine and transmission that you have with a foot-clutch manual. This is also a fact, the factor x has nothing to do with it. Performance will obviously be lower, but the ability to "feel" and manage the vehicle 100% is unattainable by a qualisai automatic. 1, 2 or 7 clutches.

 

[DanielT]

With an automatic transmission, you simply don't have the total and absolute control over the engine and transmission that you have with a foot-clutch manual. This is also a fact, the factor x has nothing to do with it. Performance will obviously be lower, but the ability to "feel" and manage the vehicle 100% is unattainable by a qualisai automatic. 1, 2 or 7 clutches.

Well, not the whole truth if we're talking about the ultimate or most extreme of racing cars. And the drivers of these cars strive for absolute control, or absolute performance if it's the same thing?:

Formula One cars use highly automated semi-automatic sequential gearboxes with paddle-shifters, with regulations stating that 8 forward gears (increased from 7 from the 2014 season onwards)[16][17] and 1 reverse gear must be used, with rear-wheel-drive.[18] The gearbox is constructed of carbon titanium, as heat dissipation is a critical issue, and is bolted onto the back of the engine.[19] Fully-automatic gearboxes, and systems such as launch control and traction control, have been illegal since 2004 and 2008, respectively, to keep driver skill and involvement important in controlling the car, and to ensure that no teams are using these systems illegally to gain a competitive advantage, as well as to keep costs down.[19][20][21]

Formula One car - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Edit:
Sorry for the OT. I don't really know why there is talk of gearboxes in this thread but as I am I couldn't keep my mouth shut.

 

[mmuetst]

If you look at the specs, Prima Luna neatly states what it does. I can remember a review of Carver Raven 350. Of course there are points, such as the crosstalk.
Attention has also been paid to the inside of these amplifiers for a neat construction that also takes safety into account.
(see the inside here):

What I regret is that @amirm has only done an objective measurement and not a subjective listening test. These are precisely the products where I like to read his subjective opinion as well.

So on a few points like Crosstalk, this product does what it should within its specs. And yes, if tubing isn't your thing, then just don't buy it.

Furthermore, it has already been noted that Prima Luna's tubes are not the very best quality available. It is a pity that you do not have the option to buy the amplifiers without tubes and that you can decide for yourself what you put in them.

 

[Geert]

@BDWoody, can we have an 'Automotive metaphors clarify it all' sticky topic to move derailed car analogy discussions to?

 

[Sal1950]

I never understood why you’d want to run a tube preamp. With power amps you could at least invoke the “soft clipping” argument if asked why it’s better, with preamps you just get higher distortion and noise.

Agreed. IMO the preamp is the worst place to run tubes. There's no escaping the noise, distortion, and other audible failings influence on the sound. At least with proper homework and choice, you can get a tube power amp who's sound
will have a minimal negative impact on the sound above the deepest bass, while still giving off the warm tube glow and
romantic nostalgia feeling.

 

[Sal1950]

I have been with audiophiles at shows and they will ask if an amp uses negative feedback and when the answer from the mfg. rep is "yes, some" the audiophiles walk away.

Sad isn't, the height of audiophoolishness.

I bought my M3 with the stick rather than the DCT option because it would be more fun for me, not because I had a prayer of doing faster lap times.

A DCT to me is for a race car. A stick is for a sports car.

Fully agreed. Pus case automatics are for girls and old men, maybe some racers
They may outperform sticks, but they're no fun to drive. Borrrrring.
I'll be a standard man till the day I die.

What I regret is that @amirm has only done an objective measurement and not a subjective listening test. These are precisely the products where I like to read his subjective opinion as well.

That's been brought up a few times now.
It's called "being kind".
The pre-amp's failings were already shown in the measurements.
Did you really want to hear him complain about the audible noise and distortion too?

 

[Geert]

What I regret is that @amirm has only done an objective measurement and not a subjective listening test. These are precisely the products where I like to read his subjective opinion as well.

The measurements show the distortion of the preamp is a lot better when you reduce the output level. So what the preamp sounds like is dependent on the sensitivity of the power amplifier you connect to it. I already made a post about this: https://audiosciencereview.com/foru...udio-cxa81-review-sample-2.34724/post-1210720. Conclusion is that in practise different brands don't apply a common standard for input sensitivity.

In this case, the Prima Luna power amps have an input sensitivity of 880mV, so when you stay within this brands ecosystem you won't drive the preamp to 2V. The 880mV also corresponds to the preamps specified input sensitivity, 220mV, multiplied with its specified gain, being 12db.

Conclusion is that when your power amps need 2V, you want to drive them to full output, and you're after a clean sound, look elsewhere.

 

[mmuetst]

I would like to see @amirm's explanation of why he didn't rate the amp subjectively, not the assumption some forum members make

 

[Geert]

I would like to see @amirm's explanation of why he didn't rate the amp subjectively, not the assumption some forum members make

I showed you the specs and math, and earlier on I explained I heared the amp in an AB test. That´s assumption for you?

 

[restorer-john]

One thing I would recommend that @amirm do is include a dBV noise measurement with a standard output voltage. It would be informative what the noise voltage is sent into the power amp and ultimately what idle voltage is being sent to the speakers. Much like the SINAD level at some standard output voltage is shown for in ear monitor application in the headphone amplifier reviews.

You can reccomend it all you like, but it falls on completely tone-deaf deaf ears at ASR. We've been advocating for a published residual noise number in uV (V/dBV whatever) here for many years. Weighted or unweighted.

 

[JSmith]

That doesn't appear to be the PrimaLuna DiaLogue Three, it's the DiaLogue Premium?

... D3 looks much better in black and without the cover too.


JSmith

 

[Mart68]

Does look better in black and without the toast rack, agreed.

Owned some valve amps in the past (there's never any bother selling them on) but have to say their perceived fragility always bothered me, although I never had an issue.