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Premium Audio Mini GaN 5 Review (Stereo Amplifier)

boXem

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Can the choice of power supply effect THD% Data?
THD, not too much with these amplifiers with ultra high loop gain. I suspect noise a bit more. But I didn't compare with non Hypex power supplies, so I may be wrong.
What I meant to write is that the curve from Purifi is an isolated module in an ideal environment while the one you posted is two modules in an actual amplifier. Can't be as good by definition.
 

musicforcities

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I generally agree, but don’t you think that implying the manufacturer made up the specs out of the whole cloth is an implied accusation of misrepresentation and fraud? That is certainly how people posting in this thread are taking it. Mail such products through the US mail and see if it isn’t a criminal matter.

Rick “words mean things” Denney
He does not accuse them of any such thing. He asks a pointed and rhetorically posed question of how they got those figures and speculates a couple answers. Neither of which assert fraud. Yes it could have been said more dispassionately. But given the series of issues arising in testing this device, the tone makes sense. Context matters. And dramatically Expressing incredulity about a manufacture’s claims based on ones own testing is not even close to such an accusation. Nor is saying available info from a manufacture is fluctuating and unclear. There are so many issues with this device given its price point, that one does not need to extend benefit of doubt forever…

Nor is a writer responsible for how an audience interprets what is said or projects their own ideas on it, with some key exceptions and bounds of reason.

Music “crappy design matters” 4cities
 

musicforcities

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On the other hand, if I had been in Tom's place: I would have tested my amp a hundredfold before sending it to ASR
Why would he keep real time tabs on shipping addresses?

Also, I would much rather Amir test a random sample unit than “a golden sample” that is selected by the company and subjected to more testing than standard for their products.

Indeed, if it is known that such special extra testing has been done the manufacturer, alarm bells should ring. Standard testing that is done for all units as part of normal manufacture yes. Maybe, and I mean maybe, an additional run of standard QC of a random sample of stock before shipping to ensure no damage occurred before shipping. Anything else is a problem.
 

rdenney

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The correct way is (in my opinion):
- Premium Audio performs measurement (as amirm do)
- They publish the measurements on Internet (their website ou a "internet forum")
- If their measurements are different that amirm measurements, They sends the tested amplifier to amirm
No, they don't have to do all these things. They do have to own their specifications. If the FTC audited them (or whatever the FTC does--probably just an initial inquiry to begin with), they would be expected to show how their product does what they claim it does, either by analysis or by testing. The FTC, if it operates as most U.S. government agencies do, would probably not do the testing themselves--they would require it of the manufacturer, or require that the manufacturer have it done by a third party. They would not be required to publish those tests, or defend themselves in the court of public opinion. They may need to do those things to save the product in the market, but that's a business decision.

This amp does not carry the burden of representing any particular amp topology, just as the Aiyima does not carry the burden of representing Class D. The Aiyima at most carries the burden of representing $70 power amps, and in that category, expectations should be appropriately moderated.

Let's consider an alternative example more meaningful than the Aiyima A07. When Buckeye started putting amps together for people using Hypex modules (at similar prices to this GaN amp), there was no claim of being a manufacturer, and the reported specs were referenced specifically to Hypex's published specifications rather than any implication of having done that testing as an assembler. Those Hypex specs have been informed by actual testing, even though implementation issues can still interfere with those specs, and if there was an unexplainable shortfall, it would be Hypex that would be expected to own them. But Buckeye would still be responsible for the implied warranty (that the product minimally does what they say it does). Note that the Hypex modules are as subject to heat management as whatever stuff is inside this GaN amp--Hypex states clearly that their ability to provide any given power depends on thermal management. In the service of amplifying actual music (and with even more headroom with movies), I judged that to not be a problem after reading considerable discussion. Buckeye started as a hobbyist, but Mr. Buckeye has been smart in how he's set his operation up, and that's why he has a pile of my money waiting its turn. I hope it means he gets his PhD without any student debt.

Note particularly that Amir's first look at Buckeye's assembly offered a range of suggested improvements in the implementation. The reason is that Mr. Buckeye approached Amir in that way. But it's not like Amir has published rules on how he needs to be approached to gain such consideration beyond statements buried in posts often deep in threads. Mr. Buckeye was active enough in ASR to get it.

This company doesn't seem to be following that model, and because they shun forums they don't understand how forums can make or break their products. It's a strategic error. But I sort-of understand it. I don't participate in forums about my area of professional expertise for a variety of reasons, one being that when I say something, it gets (wrongly) interpreted as policy. If I ever express even an opinion about a product in my profession's market, I find myself talking to someone who has flags on either side of his or her desk, if you get my drift. Words mean things, and sometimes even words that are not said mean things. I hope this company wakes up, but some care is needed on this end, too, it seems to me.

Rick "not defending either the amp or its maker, but speaking to the choices reviewers make, even online forum reviewers" Denney
 

rdenney

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He does not accuse them of any such thing. He asks a pointed and rhetorically posed question of how they got those figures and speculates a couple answers. Neither of which assert fraud. Yes it could have been said more dispassionately. But given the series of issues arising in testing this device, the tone makes sense. Context matters. And dramatically Expressing incredulity about a manufacture’s claims based on ones own testing is not even close to such an accusation. Nor is saying available info from a manufacture is fluctuating and unclear. There are so many issues with this device given its price point, that one does not need to extend benefit of doubt forever…

Nor is a writer responsible for how an audience interprets what is said or projects their own ideas on it, with some key exceptions and bounds of reason.

Music “crappy design matters” 4cities
With all due respect, that does not fit my experience. Note that I am NOT talking about the product, which clearly tested well below it's published specs. If "expressing incredulity" at a manufacturer's published specs is not an implied accusation that they are fraudulent, then what would it take?

Clearly, the measurements support the statement, so there is no issue from Amir's perspective. But let's not pretend there can't be consequences for which Amir could be held accountable if he wasn't careful, even if it's just having to deal with accusations.

Rick "published a lot of tests of camera lenses and expressed a lot of opinions based on those tests, and learned to say things carefully about limited samples and sample variation" Denney
 

musicforcities

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If the FTC audited them
The FTC has demonstrated little interest in enforcing veracity of claims in the audio industry. Otherwise Audioquest would not be able to make the claims they make. Indeed, consumer audio is riven with false claims, misleading stats, meaningless figures, and so on.

Hence, the default should be skepticism. Not benefit of doubt.

Indeed, “science” requires skepticism and criticism.

Oh yeah, and, Caveat emptor
 

GimeDsp

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I went back and reread the beginning of this review. The trouble Amir had getting it to function is my basis for thinking DOA. The OEM being a small company probably needs to send another unit to prove their power output claims. The heat sinks criticisms are silly. Not meeting published specs by large margins are more concerning.
I think you meant to say "the heat sinks are silly."
 

rdenney

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The FTC has demonstrated little interest in enforcing veracity of claims in the audio industry. Otherwise Audioquest would not be able to make the claims they make. Indeed, consumer audio is riven with false claims, misleading stats, meaningless figures, and so on.

Hence, the default should be skepticism. Not benefit of doubt.

Indeed, “science” requires skepticism and criticism.

Oh yeah, and, Caveat emptor
All true. I wonder how they get away with it, though. Other industries have been thumped by the FTC for far less.

Rick "science does not, however, require cynicism" Denney
 

DanielT

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No, they don't have to do all these things. They do have to own their specifications. If the FTC audited them (or whatever the FTC does--probably just an initial inquiry to begin with), they would be expected to show how their product does what they claim it does, either by analysis or by testing. The FTC, if it operates as most U.S. government agencies do, would probably not do the testing themselves--they would require it of the manufacturer, or require that the manufacturer have it done by a third party. They would not be required to publish those tests, or defend themselves in the court of public opinion. They may need to do those things to save the product in the market, but that's a business decision.

This amp does not carry the burden of representing any particular amp topology, just as the Aiyima does not carry the burden of representing Class D. The Aiyima at most carries the burden of representing $70 power amps, and in that category, expectations should be appropriately moderated.

Let's consider an alternative example more meaningful than the Aiyima A07. When Buckeye started putting amps together for people using Hypex modules (at similar prices to this GaN amp), there was no claim of being a manufacturer, and the reported specs were referenced specifically to Hypex's published specifications rather than any implication of having done that testing as an assembler. Those Hypex specs have been informed by actual testing, even though implementation issues can still interfere with those specs, and if there was an unexplainable shortfall, it would be Hypex that would be expected to own them. But Buckeye would still be responsible for the implied warranty (that the product minimally does what they say it does). Note that the Hypex modules are as subject to heat management as whatever stuff is inside this GaN amp--Hypex states clearly that their ability to provide any given power depends on thermal management. In the service of amplifying actual music (and with even more headroom with movies), I judged that to not be a problem after reading considerable discussion. Buckeye started as a hobbyist, but Mr. Buckeye has been smart in how he's set his operation up, and that's why he has a pile of my money waiting its turn. I hope it means he gets his PhD without any student debt.

Note particularly that Amir's first look at Buckeye's assembly offered a range of suggested improvements in the implementation. The reason is that Mr. Buckeye approached Amir in that way. But it's not like Amir has published rules on how he needs to be approached to gain such consideration beyond statements buried in posts often deep in threads. Mr. Buckeye was active enough in ASR to get it.

This company doesn't seem to be following that model, and because they shun forums they don't understand how forums can make or break their products. It's a strategic error. But I sort-of understand it. I don't participate in forums about my area of professional expertise for a variety of reasons, one being that when I say something, it gets (wrongly) interpreted as policy. If I ever express even an opinion about a product in my profession's market, I find myself talking to someone who has flags on either side of his or her desk, if you get my drift. Words mean things, and sometimes even words that are not said mean things. I hope this company wakes up, but some care is needed on this end, too, it seems to me.

Rick "not defending either the amp or its maker, but speaking to the choices reviewers make, even online forum reviewers" Denney
Rules , standards, CE-marking (Within the EU, what is the equivalent in the US I do not know).

People do not seem to care. Buy cheap switched power supplies manufactured and controlled by whom?
That with the risk of burning down houses and homes (I exaggerate but the risk exists after all).

Edit:
"On commercial products, the letters CE (as the logo CЄ) mean that the manufacturer or importer affirms the good's conformity with European health, safety, and environmental protection standards.[1]: 58  It is not a quality indicator or a certification mark.[2] The CE marking is required for goods sold in the European Economic Area (EEA), but is also found on products sold elsewhere that have been manufactured to EEA standards."

 
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amirm

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Since he had problems of a functional variety on start up - this stimulates my mind in the DOA direction.
Why? It could very well be a faulty design. Or one with too much noise for AP to capture its output.
 

musicforcities

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The FTC has demonstrated little interest in enforcing veracity of claims in the audio industry. Otherwise Audioquest would not be able to make the claims they make. Indeed, consumer audio is riven with false claims, misleading stats, meaningless figures, and so on.

Hence, the default should be skepticism. Not benefit of doubt.

Caveat emptor
With all due respect, that does not fit my experience. Note that I am NOT talking about the product, which clearly tested well below it's published specs. If "expressing incredulity" at a manufacturer's published specs is not an implied accusation that they are fraudulent, then what would it take?
That it tested so poorly is relevant context.

Incredulity about claims not verified by testing/experiment is at the core of scientific method.

Claims wildly out of kilter with testing require circumspection.

Here is a statement I just made up accusing a Company of fraud or incompetence after testing : “the claims made about the Zoomy cables made by company X have no basis in fact or science. Indeed their designs tested worse than standard equivalent awg zip cord and either do not come close to matching published data or there is no data to back up their claims. The cords are 3/4inch thick but really only have 16awg conductors, separated by stuffing in a way that produces worse relevant electrical properties than standard 16awg zip cord. One concludes they are either willfully incompetent or their published claims are willfully fraudulent.
 

musicforcities

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All true. I wonder how they get away with it, though. Other industries have been thumped by the FTC for far less.

Rick "science does not, however, require cynicism" Denney
Health and safety are a bigger priority I suspect. Also it’s not that large or essential an industry with far reaching side effects, relatively speaking.

Cynicism would be presuming every company is willfully fraudulent and idiots all the time. Extreme Circumspection is responsible to convey if a device does not work right at first, may or may not have issues with standard testing equipment (suggesting a problematic design perhaps or maybe creating issues for standard measurement practices), tests well below stated specs, is not the cheapest thing out there, is produced by a small company relatively new to making this sort of thing, and which seems to not understand how heat sinks work.
 
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Bob from Florida

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Why? It could very well be a faulty design. Or one with too much noise for AP to capture its output.
Insufficient data to draw either conclusion. Another sample from the OEM would clarify things either way. If the unit you tested was a fluke, another one - if I were them I would verify functionality before shipping - would be helpful. If they react to this in a positive manner, they may find ASR did them a huge service.
 

audio2design

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Have to agree. Incompetence does not mean fraudulent. I know I deal with both with offshore companies. Often you think they are fraudulent but they are just incompetent .. and vice versa.
 

audio2design

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My generic industrial SMPS units also have (functional!) mains input voltage selectors, but my SMPS-powered 2nd Wave Kali IN-8 monitors don't. There are apparently a multitude of both breeds available.

Most SMPS that are wide voltage don't have selector switches any more. There normally is little reason. Even if you need to select different circuit aspects for different voltages, it's normally cheaper with a circuit than a switch. As well topologies and parts have gotten better so not as necessary any more.
 

audio2design

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Given the large disparity between the published specs and the measured performance, especially given the burst-power graph that the manufacturer has apparently owned, I wonder if this example has some sort of production fault, perhaps in the power supply, that is limiting its performance. The inability to produce anywhere near the rated power has me especially suspicious, because that misrepresentation would be so easy to discover, and would support a complaint to the FTC.

Rick "has anyone communicated with the manufacturer?" Denney

Could be a flawed power supply design. If they didn't account for overload power, the pulse nature of the test, the pulse power draws down the too small caps and they power supply does not have the oomph to charge caps and supply amp.
 

Xulonn

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If they react to this in a positive manner, they may find ASR did them a huge service.
Apparently Premium Audio is not aware of the business-related benefits to Schiit Audio of acknowledging product shortcomings and working to fix them. They seem to prefer the TotalDAC "whine and defend crap" business model.
 

audio2design

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Apparently Premium Audio is not aware of the business-related benefits to Schiit Audio of acknowledging product shortcomings and working to fix them. They seem to prefer the TotalDAC "whine and defend crap" business model.

It's like Premium Audio are behaving like a bunch of "audiophiles" :)
 

GimeDsp

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They may be silly, but I did mean to say the criticism is silly - in my opinion.
An often criticism in automotive reviews are "non-functioning air vents". Almost all the time manufactures get dinged on reviews for what is called gaudy and tacky and pointless, with most reviewers preferring any other styling detail.

In this case floating heat sinks is the Meme for what appears to be other issues. If the designer can't be bothered to come up with a better solution than fake heat sinks then what other corners were cut? I would prefer a flat piece of aluminum on both sides with etching, or nothing, but to think you can call a unit "SOTA" and "leaps ahead" and all the other marketing stuff and NOT be called out is a misstep.

1. Replace the floating heatsinks with ANYTHING else.
2. Fix the performance issues
3. Make sure the unit can be tested with a full suite of tests
4. reach out to known testers and send them units to test
5. Don't put down internet forums
6. Show that you are willing to take steps to respect your clientele

IF they would do this I might even consider buying one.
It seems like Ascend Acoustics has taken all these steps? If so they should be the poster child for how small companies respond to issues.
 
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