Perlisten speakers

[ctrl]

I remember @Matthew J Poes mentioning that one thing that doesn't show in the measurements is that the Perlisten will get 10?dB louder. How is this possible?

Ultimately, it boils down to thermal load capacity and efficiency or to certain limits of THD, often 3% or 10% THD is taken as "load limit". I don't know what Matthew's statements refer to. I suspect the former.


The sensitivity of the two speakers, as you stated, is almost identical. According to the independent measurements, the Revel even has a small advantage (+0.7dB).
Thus, the thermal load capacity of the drivers is the deciding factor.
The manufacturers specify 300W (Revel) and 600W (Perlisten) as the maximum recommended amplifier power.
Thus, according to the manufacturer, the S7t speaker can deliver about 5.3-6dB more peak (long term) sound pressure level than the Revel F328Be.

Revel F328Be Perlisten S7t

For 10dB higher power handling, the S7t would have to have about a factor of >3.2 10*** higher thermal power handling.
That is a hell of a lot.

The tweeter of the Perslisten speaker with a 28mm voice coil is most likely more resilient than the 25mm tweeter of the Revel. But whether it is enough for the factor >3.2 10*** I would rather doubt.

Unfortunately, we lack the data on the power handling of the individual drivers or at least their voice coil diameter (for a rough estimate of the power handling differences).
Therefore, only the manufacturer's information on the recommended amplifier power remains.

***Update: @Boerd pointed out an error to me. For 10dB more sound pressure level you need factor 3.2 higher voltage. However, I am referring to the required power and this must increase by a factor of 10 to produce 10dB more sound pressure level (both speakers have about the same sensitivity).

 

[squeedle]

Ultimately, it boils down to thermal load capacity and efficiency or to certain limits of THD...

Could a higher xmax be a factor?

 

[amper42]

Ultimately, it boils down to thermal load capacity and efficiency or to certain limits of THD, often 3% or 10% THD is taken as "load limit". I don't know what Matthew's statements refer to. I suspect the former.


The sensitivity of the two speakers, as you stated, is almost identical. According to the independent measurements, the Revel even has a small advantage (+0.7dB).
Thus, the thermal load capacity of the drivers is the deciding factor.
The manufacturers specify 300W (Revel) and 600W (Perlisten) as the maximum recommended amplifier power.
Thus, according to the manufacturer, the S7t speaker can deliver about 5.3-6dB more peak (long term) sound pressure level than the Revel F328Be.

Revel F328BeView attachment 171270 Perlisten S7t View attachment 171271

For 10dB higher power handling, the S7t would have to have about a factor of >3.2 higher thermal power handling.
That is a hell of a lot.

The tweeter of the Perslisten speaker with a 28mm voice coil is most likely more resilient than the 25mm tweeter of the Revel. But whether it is enough for the factor >3.2 I would rather doubt.

Unfortunately, we lack the data on the power handling of the individual drivers or at least their voice coil diameter (for a rough estimate of the power handling differences).
Therefore, only the manufacturer's information on the recommended amplifier power remains.

I don't think it matters if Perlisten claims 10dB more power handling for S7T. I would not want to be in the room with my F328Be exceeding 95dB. Another 10dB would be totally painful for me if it existed.

I also think it's odd that Revel identifies the F328Be as an 8ohm speaker. Impedance reaches 3ohms and stays significantly lower than 8 ohms for the woofer range. The tweeter visits 8ohms for a short period but that's about it.

 

[Colonel7]

At 97-98 dB the Perlisten wasn't breaking a sweat running full range at Capital Audiofest (I asked and they turned subs off even though there was no high pass). And I don't like listening at over 80 dB.

 

[abdo123]

They actually do have an Ebony finish, both natural and high gloss Ebony.

Personally, I actually really like the aesthetic of these speakers. The fact that they perform excellently is a huge bonus.

One thing I still don't entirely understand is the dynamic capabilities. In response to people comparing the measurements of the S7t to the Revel F328Be, I remember @Matthew J Poes mentioning that one thing that doesn't show in the measurements is that the Perlisten will get 10?dB louder. How is this possible? They seem very similarly sized, and have almost equal sensitivity. Given that the Revel F328Be3 can take a ton of power(Amir put most of 1000W into it), where does that dynamic advantage come from? Obviously they have incredible dynamics, as they are the only recipients of the top Dolby rating, so I'm not doubting the capabilities, but rather just wondering where they come from.

It comes from the fact that the tweeter on the Perlisten tower is capable of much higher SPL (allegedly). Mathew mentioned that the tweeter is heavily attenuated with the crossover of the perlisten towers, suggesting that it’s capable of very high output. I don’t know how that translates in relative terms to Revel flagship modes.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Mea culpa you are correct, Studio 2s. I seem to recall a senior Harman exec explaining the Studio 2 being several yrs younger has a little superior tech re the Salon2.

They are contemporaries.

 

[verdun]

Thank you Kal, I need to check more. It is/was the F328Be that is newer than the Salon 2, 13 yrs newer in fact.

 

[verdun]

A few things of interest have been canvassed over the last 15 to 20 posts since I asked 'Why would the S7t have less midrange detail than the Studio2.
Kal Rubinson's reasoning that the much less mass of the S7t's midrange domes should result in better transient response re a traditional midrange cone seemed appropriate to me. Jim Garrett, Senior Director of Product Strategy at Harman said of the F328Be vs salon2 "less moving mass so a little bit of an advantage (to the F328Be)" in an interview with Gene DellaSala. For sure, Formula 1 race cars minimise weight to achieve fastest acceleration and braking (is there an academic crossover - I suspect so).
Doodling, a possible reason struck me - the Sudio2 has a naked mid range, S7t mids have heavy grills (from their point of view).
Am I heading in the right direction?

 

[Everett T]

A few things of interest have been canvassed over the last 15 to 20 posts since I asked 'Why would the S7t have less midrange detail than the Studio2.
Kal Rubinson's reasoning that the much less mass of the S7t's midrange domes should result in better transient response re a traditional midrange cone seemed appropriate to me. Jim Garrett, Senior Director of Product Strategy at Harman said of the F328Be vs salon2 "less moving mass so a little bit of an advantage (to the F328Be)" in an interview with Gene DellaSala. For sure, Formula 1 race cars minimise weight to achieve fastest acceleration and braking (is there an academic crossover - I suspect so).
Doodling, a possible reason struck me - the Sudio2 has a naked mid range, S7t mids have heavy grills (from their point of view).
Am I heading in the right direction?

You're still taking subjective reviews as gospel. Listening is your best bet if measurements are not enough.

 

[verdun]

Agreed, but as much as I would like to listen to a pair, atm I might as well try and fly.

"taking subjective reviews as gospel" Eventually Stereophile will become measurements only in that vein?
The corollary is Should one accept measurements as gospel?

 

[Matthew J Poes]

Ultimately, it boils down to thermal load capacity and efficiency or to certain limits of THD, often 3% or 10% THD is taken as "load limit". I don't know what Matthew's statements refer to. I suspect the former.


The sensitivity of the two speakers, as you stated, is almost identical. According to the independent measurements, the Revel even has a small advantage (+0.7dB).
Thus, the thermal load capacity of the drivers is the deciding factor.
The manufacturers specify 300W (Revel) and 600W (Perlisten) as the maximum recommended amplifier power.
Thus, according to the manufacturer, the S7t speaker can deliver about 5.3-6dB more peak (long term) sound pressure level than the Revel F328Be.

Revel F328BeView attachment 171270 Perlisten S7t View attachment 171271

For 10dB higher power handling, the S7t would have to have about a factor of >3.2 higher thermal power handling.
That is a hell of a lot.

The tweeter of the Perslisten speaker with a 28mm voice coil is most likely more resilient than the 25mm tweeter of the Revel. But whether it is enough for the factor >3.2 I would rather doubt.

Unfortunately, we lack the data on the power handling of the individual drivers or at least their voice coil diameter (for a rough estimate of the power handling differences).
Therefore, only the manufacturer's information on the recommended amplifier power remains.

You don’t need the driver thermal power handling. You need the actual maximum SPL test data. There are a handful of maximum SPL test methods used in the industry and all five different results. The Perlisten figure of 117dB comes from a THD limit. It’s 3% THD at 2 meters. My 10dB comment was based on the only figure I had from Revel, which I don’t have immediately at my fingertips. It was a higher distortion threshold. I then Asked Dan the SPL of the Perlisten at that distortion and we extrapolated out what the likely difference would be for the maximum SPL of the Perlisten, which we knew, vs if the Revel was pushed to that limit. we came to 10dB.

It was an estimate. To know for a fact both would need to be measured in exactly the same way at the same time. Keep in mind that over most of the treble range the Perlisten has three tweeters operating at the time time. The beam forming tech offers a significant SPL advantage over most single tweeter designs.

 

[Matthew J Poes]

A few things of interest have been canvassed over the last 15 to 20 posts since I asked 'Why would the S7t have less midrange detail than the Studio2.
Kal Rubinson's reasoning that the much less mass of the S7t's midrange domes should result in better transient response re a traditional midrange cone seemed appropriate to me. Jim Garrett, Senior Director of Product Strategy at Harman said of the F328Be vs salon2 "less moving mass so a little bit of an advantage (to the F328Be)" in an interview with Gene DellaSala. For sure, Formula 1 race cars minimise weight to achieve fastest acceleration and braking (is there an academic crossover - I suspect so).
Doodling, a possible reason struck me - the Sudio2 has a naked mid range, S7t mids have heavy grills (from their point of view).
Am I heading in the right direction?

The grill is removable and many listen with out them. But a grill adds no moving mass. If anything it would just cause some comb filtering.

 

[Matthew J Poes]

Agreed, but as much as I would like to listen to a pair, atm I might as well try and fly.

"taking subjective reviews as gospel" Eventually Stereophile will become measurements only in that vein?
The corollary is Should one accept measurements as gospel?

Measurements only tell you if the speaker is well engineered or not. They can tell you a lot about the sound. But at the end of the day, two speakers can both measure excellently but sound different (not I didn’t say measure the same, if they sound different they measure different). I sell Perlisten, I have sold many to people that bought sight unseen and were happy, but in general I would prefer people to listen for themselves. Everyone’s preferences can be a bit different.

 

[Deleted member 4708]

One difference between the Revel F328Be and Perlisten S7T are the crossovers. The Revel has a traditional crossover: the 8 inch drivers cross at 240 to the mid which crosses to tweeter at 2.1Khz
Perlisten S7T has all 4 woofers going up to 550Hz, 2 of them even up to 1.35khz, the mid is 1-4 Khz and the tweeter is above 1 Khz.
The use of woofers this high reminds me of Geithain which uses a 16 inch diver up to 550Hz to help the mid. I guess this helps the mid with the SPL. For Perlisten, the fact the mid is above 1Khz makes possible to use small drivers with less mass to move (armchair guessing).
One thing that is clear to me is the higher quality finish of the Perlisten. The screws in the F328Be's waveguide do not scream high quality finish. Nor does the simple foot the speaker stands on. Revel F328Be looks good but it is just better than average to me. Perlisten S7T finish seems to be of very high quality. Now the looks... beauty is in the eye of the beholder

 

[verdun]

The grill is removable and many listen with out them. But a grill adds no moving mass. If anything it would just cause some comb filtering.

Matthew to be clear - "the grill is removable," do you mean the 35-40mm (guesswork) perforated circular discs over the two midrange 28mm Textreme TPCD drivers?

 

[Sam Ash]

Hoping Amir can review these at some point.

 

[pierre]

Perlisten publishes a spinorama per speaker. Measurements are very smoothed and the one that we can compare (with a klippel measurement) diverge a fair bit. Nonetheless, I have started to scan them and added them to my database.

You can see the results in https://pierreaubert.github.io/spinorama/.

I have scanned all the S series and started the R.

Examples:
S4b data from Perlisten v.s. ErinsAudioCorner (@hardisj )

S4b v.s. R4b data from Perlisten:

 

[Jdunk54nl]

Also this video from Youthman touring a complete Perlisten home theater

 

[Deleted member 4708]

Matthew to be clear - "the grill is removable," do you mean the 35-40mm (guesswork) perforated circular discs over the two midrange 28mm Textreme TPCD drivers?

Perlisten recommends you keep the mids grills on. They are for more than aesthetics.

 

[Randy Bessinger]

Perlisten recommends you keep the mids grills on. They are for more than aesthetics.

The R series does not come with grills. They are an optional assessory. It may be because the S series it is beryllium that it is recommended for the kids. Matthew probably knows.

I do think they are striking speakers without grills.