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Performance vs reliability/serviceability

Katji

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You really think these companies price in world wide servicing and longevity into their price structure?
It varies a lot. I can tell you one country where Denon/Marantzforinstance have crazy margins but the backup service is crap or limited. You wait for them to ship to and from, maybe after few weeks sorting out whether or not to replace unit or whether it will be a replacement board.
So that is one major reason, together with internet facility, for people to manage it themselves. Either way, logistics is the thing. And communications /"feedback" and responsiveness.
In the case of those big brand names, the importers/distributors change, the usual corporate takeover stuff, and that sometimes affects the backup service.
 

Blumlein 88

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Longevity
Functionality
Ease of operation (no elaborate menus)
Price
At least decent performance
When it has batteries they should be easy to replace.
Readable displays.
Indicator leds not indicator flashlights.
Compatibel with gear I already own.
Looks
You could have just said everything. I'm just poking fun at you as I was reading this list and shaking my head in agreement, and then it struck me all I want is what everyone wants which is everything.
 

Blumlein 88

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Tube amps vs a Topping DAC.

I liked tube amps because I could replace the active bits easier than replacing a light bulb. OTOH, you had to regularly replace those bits. Other parts if they did fail I would replace as the parts are large and the circuit simple. Transformers are more or less forever.

A Topping DAC offers unparalleled performance for price. If they need replacing twice a year I'd not be happy. OTOH, if they lasted 3 years or more and cost less than a set of power tubes to replace, then the whole unit is reasonably replaceable. It took me awhile to adapt to repairing electronics when boards and cards were becoming the norm. My inclination was to find out what part on the board was bad and fix it. It might be a dinky resistor or diode. But, my time was valuable to my employer and the smart thing for them was, "you've figured out which board it is, replacing that is cheaper than your time to repair, just swap it out".

So it is a continuum. Displays and controls I like are really a bigger problem. Or these days the user interface.
 

solderdude

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My Topping E30 still works flawlessly (USB)
So do my 2 FIIO daps.
As SMPS are often the first ones to go I prefer to have them externally.

Never had had to repair any amps or speakers (all DIY and over 30 y.o. now) but am already on the 3rd laptop (music source) though.
 
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Digby

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However , given so much of these performance gains are for ego only and not being audible , where do we draw the line when we look for gear .. ?
This is tangential to your main point, but personally speaking, I'd like a lot more made of what kind of improvements can and can not be heard, particularly with regard to speakers.

Earl Geddes says that distortion is relatively unimportant in lower harmonics as it is masked by the ear, becoming more unpleasant/noticeable through higher orders. Is there any point in spending more money for a speaker with lower distortion through x frequency range, if it cannot be heard due to the way the ear/brain interprets the sound?

We can say the speaker is a better transducer if it produces lower distortion, but if we can't hear the difference in this particular order of distortion, is there any need to spend money chasing it?

This is the kind of thing I'd like to see more of here. A grading system of different faults/imperfections a product (particularly speakers) can have and how perceptible said imperfections are.
 

Katji

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This is the kind of thing I'd like to see more of here. A grading system of different faults/imperfections a product (particularly speakers) can have and how perceptible said imperfections are.
With 2 categories :

- physically inaudlible

- inaudible but no conclusive neuroscience research findings re percceptible. | e.g. "Earl Geddes says that distortion is relatively unimportant in lower harmonics as it is masked by the ear, becoming more unpleasant/noticeable through higher orders." Masked by ear or masked by neural network? "...lower distortion through x frequency range, if it cannot be heard due to the way the ear/brain interprets the sound?" Knowledge of brain+psych. interpretation is not yet so well-developed. Thresholds for rating could be defined but not by audiophiles or audio engineers; input from neuroscience experts required.
 

Blumlein 88

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Well best evidence with the most sensitive part of our hearing with test signals is our ability to hear distortion is about -60 db at best. With music probably 20 db worse. With low frequency signals certainly not better than this. -60 db is a pretty easy target to meet. So for practical purposes that is inaudible. In source components -60 db might be made audible due to gain in the amps that drive our transducers. So maybe you want -80 db to be safe. Also an easy target to meet.

Noise with some sensitive speakers can be a bit more demanding. Still turn your volume up to max. Do you hear anything? If no, then noise is quiet enough. Is THD less than -60 db? If yes, then distortion is low enough.

Oh, and is your FR flat to within +/- .1 db 20-20khz. Then you are good.
 

Mnyb

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I would say if a product is designed to be disposable as many smd filled boards are , they should be highly recyclable and not end in the landfill so the rare metals and plastic could be reused if it does not make sense to repair the product .
This can in some cases make as much sense as repair , what uses most resources ? including transport costs etc ? I think it's case by case.

But even then I whish for longer products cycles with some software upgrades along the way (to keep it current ) before recycling.
For the future i hope even disposable products gets more expensive per unit but last longer and are 99% recycled , the total cost for you might be the same over your life and the total profit for the company the same but less load on the environment and less "matter" circulated in the economy .

That said my old iPad is unusually resilient and keeps on going ? I'm expecting an Apple rep coming to my home and smash it soon... :)

Who decided (Apple ? ) that phones that break falling of table was a good idea ? remember my old Ericsson 888 i could probably throw that one trough a window on the 3rd floor and pick it up on the street still working fine :) or use it as a hammer.
And consumer replaceable batteries ? I want those back.

Another thing that's gone backwards are cars , you simply cant dyi anymore and independent shops cant do much either with some parts ?
 

rdenney

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I would say if a product is designed to be disposable as many smd filled boards are , they should be highly recyclable and not end in the landfill so the rare metals and plastic could be reused if it does not make sense to repair the product .
This can in some cases make as much sense as repair , what uses most resources ? including transport costs etc ? I think it's case by case.

But even then I whish for longer products cycles with some software upgrades along the way (to keep it current ) before recycling.
For the future i hope even disposable products gets more expensive per unit but last longer and are 99% recycled , the total cost for you might be the same over your life and the total profit for the company the same but less load on the environment and less "matter" circulated in the economy .

That said my old iPad is unusually resilient and keeps on going ? I'm expecting an Apple rep coming to my home and smash it soon... :)

Who decided (Apple ? ) that phones that break falling of table was a good idea ? remember my old Ericsson 888 i could probably throw that one trough a window on the 3rd floor and pick it up on the street still working fine :) or use it as a hammer.
And consumer replaceable batteries ? I want those back.

Another thing that's gone backwards are cars , you simply cant dyi anymore and independent shops cant do much either with some parts ?
(On the subject of Apple durability, I was in Palm Springs to facilitate a workshop, and my flight on departure day was very early. I was filling the rental car at about 4 AM, and looking at my iPhone while it was filling to remind myself of the route to the airport. I set the phone down on the trunk lid, replaced the fuel nozzle, installed the fuel cap, got into the car, and drove away. I was halfway to the airport when I realized my pocket was empty and panic set in. I went back and found it in the middle of the street, face down in its Mophie battery case, with a clearly visible tire track over the back of it. Other than some scarring on the edge of the case, no damage. Shorts may have been soiled, however.)

As for recycling electronics, who disassembles them to remove the recycleable parts? Even then, everything else ends up in the landfill. If it's worth somebody's time to disassemble it for recycling, it should be possible for me to disassemble it for repair, even if it means replacing that board. I have replaced the control boards in both our washer and dryer, for example, when they were damaged by lightning surges. No, I received no help at all from the manufacturer. But the parts were available in the aftermarket one way or the other. Had I bought a higher-end brand, that might not have been the case. (They were made by Whirlpool.) I have even replaced the drum on that washer because the spider frame on it failed from fatigue (and bad design). So, $2000 in washer and dryer investment 20 years ago, with no more than about $600 in parts and a few hours of my time, are still in service rather than in the metal recycling pile at the landfill.

As to your last line about cars: AMEN, Bruddha! Cars are the ultimate example of very expensive constructions that should be commonly serviceable. I see cars that are 50 years old being nursed along in third-world locations where service facilities are based in three dimensions rather than in software, because those ancient vehicles still can be serviced by their owners. Even the electronic systems for cars with electronic control systems up to maybe 20 years ago have been thoroughly reverse-engineered at this point. But that's because there is a market for the stuff strong enough for third-party enterprises to overcome obfuscation and obstruction by the manufacturers, not because the manufacturers actually provide that support. Example: The "smart junction box" in my Ford Expedition crapped out on a cross-country trip. I had to leave it at a Ford dealer in Baytown, Texas, find a place to store the stuff I was carrying (fortunately, I have friends in that area), fly home 1300 miles (you know, work), fly back the following week, pick up the vehicle, pick up all my stuff, and then drive home with a high degree of anxiety. I had $1500 in costs above the repair (which was covered by an extended warranty, thank goodness). The reason I couldn't just buy a smart junction box and install it myself? It has to be tattooed to the key for the vehicle to function, and only the dealer can do that. Consequently, the box itself is simply not available to owners directly. More and more automotive parts are "dealer only", and more and more of them are unavailable for sale to owners directly. There are going to be a lot of recent cars going to the crusher long before those half-century-old cars in the third world.

Rick "right to repair!" Denney
 

MaxwellsEq

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Given the planet's finite resources, I feel we should all support right-to-repair, or something similar.
Most of my kit is 25+ years old, with only digital or network/IT equipment being more recent. Where appropriate, I use pro or semi-pro, because products that regularly don't last long in a studio!
 

JeffS7444

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$15 novelty BT speakers notwithstanding, my goal is to "consume" less new stuff and to be somewhat selective about the things that I do purchase.

At some point, keeping aging electronics in service becomes a labor of love, so why not seek out products which have a certain appeal beyond the strictly utilitarian? My $130 Topping amplifier has good set of features and laser-etched aluminum housing, and if it breaks, I'll try to fix it myself.

I've already done DIY service on my Marantz AVR. Although features which rely on cloud and apps will eventually become obsolete, and HDMI specs will continue to advance, it's my hope that it will continue to be useful as an audio component far into the future - maybe I should find a way to archive and side-load the Audyssey app onto an equally old mobile device at some point? Some operations are easiest with a monitor hookup, but I think even a small HDMI monitor would suffice for that.

I like to think that with age, I've gotten better at keeping my ego in check. But I also lack local audio buddies constantly putting ideas into my head!
 

JeffS7444

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I think I've failed to address a key point that the OP was trying to make: Let's leave obsessive SINAD-chasing to the designers. There will always be competition between manufacturers for the top spot. But for end-users, I think it's worthwhile to make fewer (meaningless?) incremental upgrades.

As far as serviceability is concerned, I think any product which still receives official factory support 10 years hence likely has much of that support cost figured into the purchase price, and it's probably reserved for less complex products.

Provided that proprietary or obsolete devices aren't involved, most products can be serviced, but lack of niceties like service manuals and diagnostics procedures can make it tricky, while the scale and density of SMD can seem daunting.
 

D!sco

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Value is my biggest draw. If something performs outside of it's price range, I'm interested even if it covers an area I already have. I don't buy them often, but I like to check out whatever budget Moondrop IEM there is, or portable headphones. Speakers especially love to throw huge dollar signs at the problem without much return on investment. Lots of cheap stuff performing really well in contrast.

The thing I'd like ASR to start demonstrating is how multiple devices across a signal chain can degrade a final image. If I have a purifi amp and a terrible DAC, what's my end distortion or jitter/etc. More realistically, if I have an amp with a 90dB SINAD, do I need a DAC that does better?
 

levimax

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DIY is certainly the ultimate for servicability ... if you built in in the first place you can fix it. The cost of DIY is not the cheapest but still reasonable and you can pick your parts for reliability and can add "features" later rather than having to buy a whole new unit. Performance can be excellent with schematics, boards, modules, or entire kits readily available. Not for everyone but a fun option for some.
 

rdenney

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DIY is certainly the ultimate for servicability ... if you built in in the first place you can fix it. The cost of DIY is not the cheapest but still reasonable and you can pick your parts for reliability and can add "features" later rather than having to buy a whole new unit. Performance can be excellent with schematics, boards, modules, or entire kits readily available. Not for everyone but a fun option for some.
DIY is no longer an option for electronics, unless you are talking about buying kits with completed circuit boards. In the old days, people could by a PCB, populate it with through-hole components, and solder it up. Now, the board is many layers with surface-mount components some of which have dozen's of pins. Those are designed for machine soldering and would require far more skills than DIYers can develop, unless they are in the biz. And then they won't have time for such projects.

(Speakers are the exception.)

I've looked at some of the kits from Akitika, and I think some are reasonable options. And I've built a couple of projects, but using populated boards that are no more or less serviceable than off-the-shelf products. (They often don't have documentation or schematics, but sometimes they do.) But they are not always state of the art and they do not fulfill use cases for digital playback.

For me, the larger point is that manufacturers owe a duty to their customers to make service information and proprietary parts available to owners.

Rick "tired of being forced to assume all the risk for long-term serviceability" Denney
 

levimax

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DIY is no longer an option for electronics, unless you are talking about buying kits with completed circuit boards. In the old days, people could by a PCB, populate it with through-hole components, and solder it up. Now, the board is many layers with surface-mount components some of which have dozen's of pins. Those are designed for machine soldering and would require far more skills than DIYers can develop, unless they are in the biz. And then they won't have time for such projects.

(Speakers are the exception.)

I've looked at some of the kits from Akitika, and I think some are reasonable options. And I've built a couple of projects, but using populated boards that are no more or less serviceable than off-the-shelf products. (They often don't have documentation or schematics, but sometimes they do.) But they are not always state of the art and they do not fulfill use cases for digital playback.

For me, the larger point is that manufacturers owe a duty to their customers to make service information and proprietary parts available to owners.

Rick "tired of being forced to assume all the risk for long-term serviceability" Denney
There are plenty of through hole boards and kits some with SOTA performance like Nuerochrome. https://neurochrome.com/

Also Elliott Sound Products, maybe not SOTA but still excellent and reliable and proven. https://sound-au.com/projects.htm

There are many more and if you are adventurous you can even self teach yourself some of the modeling programs and have your own PCB's made although this is beyond what most are willing to do. In many ways this is the best time ever for DIY with information and parts on the internet and tools and measurement equipment cheaper than ever.

DIY for power amps, pre-amps, crossovers, and speakers can make perfect sense for some people. DAC's and streamers are probably not really a good option as it is all about IC's and surface mount as you say but I have seen some DIY R2R DAC projects that could be fun if not sensible or practical.
 

Mnyb

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(On the subject of Apple durability, I was in Palm Springs to facilitate a workshop, and my flight on departure day was very early. I was filling the rental car at about 4 AM, and looking at my iPhone while it was filling to remind myself of the route to the airport. I set the phone down on the trunk lid, replaced the fuel nozzle, installed the fuel cap, got into the car, and drove away. I was halfway to the airport when I realized my pocket was empty and panic set in. I went back and found it in the middle of the street, face down in its Mophie battery case, with a clearly visible tire track over the back of it. Other than some scarring on the edge of the case, no damage. Shorts may have been soiled, however.)

As for recycling electronics, who disassembles them to remove the recycleable parts? Even then, everything else ends up in the landfill. If it's worth somebody's time to disassemble it for recycling, it should be possible for me to disassemble it for repair, even if it means replacing that board. I have replaced the control boards in both our washer and dryer, for example, when they were damaged by lightning surges. No, I received no help at all from the manufacturer. But the parts were available in the aftermarket one way or the other. Had I bought a higher-end brand, that might not have been the case. (They were made by Whirlpool.) I have even replaced the drum on that washer because the spider frame on it failed from fatigue (and bad design). So, $2000 in washer and dryer investment 20 years ago, with no more than about $600 in parts and a few hours of my time, are still in service rather than in the metal recycling pile at the landfill.

As to your last line about cars: AMEN, Bruddha! Cars are the ultimate example of very expensive constructions that should be commonly serviceable. I see cars that are 50 years old being nursed along in third-world locations where service facilities are based in three dimensions rather than in software, because those ancient vehicles still can be serviced by their owners. Even the electronic systems for cars with electronic control systems up to maybe 20 years ago have been thoroughly reverse-engineered at this point. But that's because there is a market for the stuff strong enough for third-party enterprises to overcome obfuscation and obstruction by the manufacturers, not because the manufacturers actually provide that support. Example: The "smart junction box" in my Ford Expedition crapped out on a cross-country trip. I had to leave it at a Ford dealer in Baytown, Texas, find a place to store the stuff I was carrying (fortunately, I have friends in that area), fly home 1300 miles (you know, work), fly back the following week, pick up the vehicle, pick up all my stuff, and then drive home with a high degree of anxiety. I had $1500 in costs above the repair (which was covered by an extended warranty, thank goodness). The reason I couldn't just buy a smart junction box and install it myself? It has to be tattooed to the key for the vehicle to function, and only the dealer can do that. Consequently, the box itself is simply not available to owners directly. More and more automotive parts are "dealer only", and more and more of them are unavailable for sale to owners directly. There are going to be a lot of recent cars going to the crusher long before those half-century-old cars in the third world.

Rick "right to repair!" Denney

Modern recycling is quite good you basically pulverise everything and machine sort the fractions and use other methods like floatation separators and centrifuges .

But longevity and upgrades and repair is better :)
 

dfuller

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Vacceo

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Modern recycling is quite good you basically pulverise everything and machine sort the fractions and use other methods like floatation separators and centrifuges .

But longevity and upgrades and repair is better :)
For someone that likes machinery, few things are as cool as separating different materials in little pieces with lasers. I saw it in a glass recycling facility and it was quite impressive.
 

anmpr1

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As to your last line about cars: AMEN, Bruddha! Cars are the ultimate example of very expensive constructions that should be commonly serviceable.
The deal with cars is also probably due to the fact that most newer ones tend to be 'closed systems', requiring specialized gear to work on them. Why is that? Beats me, but my guess is that at least some of it is due to government regs mandating specific emission schedules. Closely spec'd parts, laid out in places where the average cat with an adjustable wrench and a set of pliers can't get at. And EPA probably doesn't want citizens 'dumping' oil into the aquifer. Who knows?

Come to think of it, I don't even think my Audi has a dipstick to check oil level. There's an idiot light on the dash, somewhere.
 
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